somewhat vexed dilemma

[Tricky]

Sorry. I couldn't think of a better title.

I have a disagreement with, well, my shrink actually. It comes down to a binary question, and.. I can't really get myself behind either answer. They're not much substance for answers either, but I think you've dealt with less material in the past. Religion and stuff, always a winner. Aanyway. On with mine.

- You have someone you care a great deal about. That person dies.

A. You're around when it happens, you will know every detail of what happened. You're mentally stuck with what 'B' might have been like.
B. You're not around. Through circumstances beyond your control you also never get to know what happened. You're stuck with the lingering question of what 'A' might have been like.

So now.. and, I mean, they're all completely good and terrible choices in their own precious little ways, but what I'm definitely not aiming for here is the kleenex movie moment type of argument for A, simply because Disney or whatever decides how we deal with tough emotional situations. I shouldn't have to tell you that's not how things work.

No, I'm making an appeal to 'the educated mind' - which is, from my experience, the one illegal substance that is in no short supply here. I don't have to explain that 'A' is related to closure, to 'doing the right thing', etc. What I need to stress is that 'B' is no pussy way out, given having a choice in the matter or not. Absence of a memory and whatever you conjure up internally to replace it will keep you up at night all the same. Despite either answer you will have to deal with the absence of someone, whatever memories you shared before.

So, I'm kinda.. I'm really not getting anywhere with this. To make matters worse, I have to write something about this for the psychiatrist I told you about. I'm pretty much ****ting my pants, it's been three weeks now. Er.. five trashy pages, that's all I have. I need an insight, something good I can work with. Two heads are better than one, three are better than two, etcetera.

Getting late. I'm sorry, more often than not people don't get what I try to explain. Don't ask me for a better rehash of what I tried to write just now, if I start editing now there will be no end to it. And I'll likely delete everything.

[Lady Dragonfly]

Tricky, what does that shrink try to accomplish by making you agonize over this dilemma? Or, rather, what do you try to accomplish by performing this obviously painful task? And what kind of disagreement do you have with your shrink? I realize I am asking intimate questions, here; please forgive my bluntness.

I suppose, elaboration upon hypothetical "what if" might help you cope with the grief of losing someone you deeply cared for; however I utterly fail to see how. Pondering endlessly over "What if" is fruitless, in my opinion. If you feel you are stuck, it ain't working.

I believe that the best way is to allow sadness follow its natural course. Peace and acceptance will come, eventually. Healing requires some time. There is nothing wrong with being depressed after a loved one's death. There is nothing wrong about crying either - it is a natural stress-alleviating response, not a Kleenex movie type response, though I can comprehend the "men don't cry" (read: real, tough men, not them sissies) kind of argument.

You might feel responsible for whatever happened, A or B. It is only natural. We feel that if we have been there, at the right moment, we could have changed everything for the better because we subconsciously believe that we have that absolute power to shield, protect, save, prevent etc. But that is not necessarily true. And even if that was true, what does it change, after all? Whatever happened cannot be changed. The game cannot be reloaded. Yet, all good memories are still with us: isn't it better to concentrate on those memories instead of dwelling on "what if..." and wallowing in misery?

And here are a few really uncomfortable questions: is it all about us, our well-being, how we feel, how we cope, how we hurt, how we nurse our psychological wounds? Do we experience sorrow because something we enjoyed was suddenly taken from us? Do we feel sorry for ourselves, suddenly lonely? Do we feel need to justify our action or inaction? Do we want peace of mind? Do we want to forget?

If knowing every minute detail of "what happened" would give you a sense of closure, then there you go. Learn. However, sometimes it's better not to know EVERYTHING. That means, both A and B can be satisfied: you would know what happened IN GENERAL (and would have that coveted sense of closure and maybe peace of mind) without concentrating on particulars (and therefore painful memories which might haunt you forever).

That was my surgical approach to psychological dilemmas.

Anyway, shrinks suck.

[VonDondu]

- You have someone you care a great deal about. That person dies.

A. You're around when it happens, you will know every detail of what happened. You're mentally stuck with what 'B' might have been like.
B. You're not around. Through circumstances beyond your control you also never get to know what happened. You're stuck with the lingering question of what 'A' might have been like.

If I were in position 'B', I might indeed wonder what 'A' might have been like. But it would be more than just "a lingering question". There would be all sorts of complications, such as feeling a bit guilty for not being there when it happened, or feeling vexed because I would never know what really happened.

I've actually been in position 'A', and it really wasn't so bad. Contrary to the stated assumption, I never bothered to think about what 'B' would have been like (which makes me wonder whether I misunderstand your dilemma), so to me, there was no "dilemma" between 'A' and 'B' at all.

Also contrary to another stated assumption, I did NOT know every detail of what happened, even though I was there. In position 'A', I'm in about as much peace as I can expect to be, but nothing is ever clear cut. I don't think I can make myself clear without telling you specifically what happened. If you'd like to know the details, read on; if not, please stop here.

A friend of mine was dying of emphysema. He spent the last five weeks of his life in an intensive care unit. He spent most of that time with a tube down his throat, and he was sedated into unconsciousness because of the tube. His family and I didn't know if he would ever leave the hospital alive. Trying to get accurate, useful information from the doctors was a nightmare. Without much warning, they announced that it was time to consider disconnecting him from life support. When they removed the breathing tube and stopped sedation, he did not regain consciousness, which led to speculation that he had suffered brain damage due to lack of oxygen, but this was never confirmed. However, it was clear that he was not able to breathe on his own, and we believed that his quality of life would never improve. His wife and children made the decision to let him die (with my support). I was there. His breathing was indeed very labored, but it took him over twelve hours, and increasingly large doses of morphine, before he expired. I was left wondering whether the morphine is actually what killed him. It seemed merciful at the time, but as you can imagine, I was left with many lingering doubts.

[Tricky]

Thanks. I wasn't really expecting any replies over such an inept request.

Tricky, what does that shrink try to accomplish by making you agonize over this dilemma? Or, rather, what do you try to accomplish by performing this obviously painful task? And what kind of disagreement do you have with your shrink? I realize I am asking intimate questions, here; please forgive my bluntness.

That's okay. I shouldn't shy away from it either. The problem is that I've reached sort of an impasse, and unlike me she thinks there's still room for progress beyond the question I asked. I have faith in her judgement, but I don't see it. It resulted in two awkward meeting where we didn't really have any constructive dialogue. So I've been given some extra time between sessions to figure this out 'before' it becomes a problem.

You might feel responsible for whatever happened, A or B. It is only natural

I shouldn't but there is a separate element to the cause in which we (victim and I) are equal to blame. Something I've overlooked until I started taking those session.

Yet, all good memories are still with us: isn't it better to concentrate on those memories instead of dwelling on "what if..." and wallowing in misery?

I believe all memories contribute and should contribute to the self. The very fact that misery is unpopular, may be something of a trend. Having said that, I'm not opening my doors to all drama queens. For personal growth to be possible, these memories need to be 1. compiled and 2. deleted. It's the most blunt way I can put it, but I've thoroughly thought this over and I'm resolute. I don't hold on to anything, not even pictures. This is very important to me, a personal philosophy that I intend to live or die by.

If knowing every minute detail of "what happened" would give you a sense of closure, then there you go. Learn.

Not a possibility.

However, sometimes it's better not to know EVERYTHING. That means, both A and B can be satisfied: you would know what happened IN GENERAL (and would have that coveted sense of closure and maybe peace of mind) without concentrating on particulars (and therefore painful memories which might haunt you forever)

Ehh.. I had sort of a nausea/panic attack while I wrote my reply to this. When I returned I forgot what I wanted to write about, sorry. I think it had something to do with closure being out of the question. All I can say is that it's been decided that I'm not to be made privvy of what happened, end of story. I am B. and any kind of closure I'll have to conjure up myself somehow.

I've actually been in position 'A', and it really wasn't so bad. Contrary to the stated assumption, I never bothered to think about what 'B' would have been like (which makes me wonder whether I misunderstand your dilemma), so to me, there was no "dilemma" between 'A' and 'B' at all.

Hm. Actually, you may be on to something. I seem to have made an assumption about something in A. Something I took for granted because I'm in B. Damn, I can't think straight about this right now. I'll have to reread this bit tomorrow, once I've eased down a bit. Thanks in advance.


VonDondu, about that last bit you wrote - lingering doubts about morphine-, I can see another good point there. It's a bit specific to the nature of what you experienced, and I can't right now immediately apply it to what happened to me, but I have a feeling it's another clue, something I can use.

Thanks, both of you. I don't know if you have more to say, but I already cannot thank you enough. Now.. I need to go to bed before I pass out. :laugh:

[C Elegans]

- You have someone you care a great deal about. That person dies.

A. You're around when it happens, you will know every detail of what happened. You're mentally stuck with what 'B' might have been like.
B. You're not around. Through circumstances beyond your control you also never get to know what happened. You're stuck with the lingering question of what 'A' might have been like.

I've been in both situation A and B several times. I can't really see many advantages with situation B, but you can't choose the circumstances for death, so you just have to cope with it when it happens.

I don't understand why you would be stuck with what B might have been like if you are in situation A. If you know all the details, why bother with pondering what it would have been not to know? To me, it sounds equivalent to pondering any alternative situation all the time just because there is an alternative. In situation B I think it's more understandable to wonder what happened since you don't know anything. You may wonder why the person died at all, if the person was in pain, if the person knew s/he was going to die, if the person was unhappy or content with the situation etc. You will have to accept not knowing, but still I think it's much more understandable to wonder about what you do not know than to wonder what it would have been like to not know, when you know.

So now.. and, I mean, they're all completely good and terrible choices in their own precious little ways, but what I'm definitely not aiming for here is the kleenex movie moment type of argument for A, simply because Disney or whatever decides how we deal with tough emotional situations. I shouldn't have to tell you that's not how things work.

This paragraph I don't understand at all, can you develop a bit more in detail what you mean? Why would alternative A, knowing the details about a person's death, implicate something related to Disney movies? What am I missing here?

No, I'm making an appeal to 'the educated mind' - which is, from my experience, the one illegal substance that is in no short supply here. I don't have to explain that 'A' is related to closure, to 'doing the right thing', etc. What I need to stress is that 'B' is no pussy way out, given having a choice in the matter or not. Absence of a memory and whatever you conjure up internally to replace it will keep you up at night all the same. Despite either answer you will have to deal with the absence of someone, whatever memories you shared before.

I don't really understand what you with B not being a pussy way out either. If you have a choice in the matter, I would think A is by far the better alternative, but that's not related to being a pussy or not, it's related to your possibilities of accepting the person's death and coping with the absence of your loved one. When a person is about to die, it is usually best for the dying person to be able to take farewell and to be able to spend their last time with people they love. Generally, it is also best for those who are left behind to take farewell and to take advantage of the little time that is left. So why on earth would alternative B be better for anyone?

The only situation where I would find B a better alternative than A, is if the person died during really horrific and painful circumstances. In that case, it may be better for the close ones not to know what really happened. For instance, having your family members tortured to death before you eyes is such a devastating experience so it would be better for most people not to know what happened.

I believe all memories contribute and should contribute to the self. The very fact that misery is unpopular, may be something of a trend. Having said that, I'm not opening my doors to all drama queens. For personal growth to be possible, these memories need to be 1. compiled and 2. deleted. It's the most blunt way I can put it, but I've thoroughly thought this over and I'm resolute. I don't hold on to anything, not even pictures. This is very important to me, a personal philosophy that I intend to live or die by.

I completely agree with you that all memories contribute and should contribute to the self. I however completely disagree that deletion is a sound and healthy way to deal with memories. Whatever good or bad things happen to you, deletion of memories means you can no longer take advantage of that experience in future situations. Furthermore, deletion of memories is almost impossible unless you damage your brain in some way. If something really bad happens to you and you can't stand the thought of it to such an extent that you delete in from your consciousness, it's usually a sign that you haven't fully worked through and learned to cope with that trauma. If you've experienced a trauma in the past you shouldn't ruminate it and you shouldn't focus on it once you've learned to cope with it and accept it, but deletion is no solution. Thus, it sounds like a contradiction that you first state you view all memories as part of the self and then state you think deletion of memories is desirable.

[VonDondu]

This paragraph I don't understand at all, can you develop a bit more in detail what you mean? Why would alternative A, knowing the details about a person's death, implicate something related to Disney movies? What am I missing here?

I think I understood what Tricky meant, but I would be curious to know if I misinterpreted what he wrote.

"I'm definitely not aiming for...the kleenex movie moment type of argument for A, simply because Disney or whatever decides how we deal with tough emotional situations. I shouldn't have to tell you that's not how things work."

I think that Tricky is alluding to the way that many people believe that real life should be like a Disney movie--where people crowd around a hospital bed and sob and comfort each other and say meaningful things--when in fact such real life situations are less dramatic and somewhat more macabre. For example, when my friend was dying, his children were placing bets about such things as when his breathing would stop and when he would "flatline", and they were actually throwing the money they were betting in his lap. They were just having some fun while they could. None of us who was in the room was crying for twelve hours straight or reciting a preliminary eulogy/benediction. We were in a most unusual sitation, and we didn't try to model our behavior on something we had seen in a Disney movie, and we didn't try to stop ourselves from having a few laughs.

I don't understand why you would be stuck with what B might have been like if you are in situation A. If you know all the details, why bother with pondering what it would have been not to know? To me, it sounds equivalent to pondering any alternative situation all the time just because there is an alternative.

That was exactly my own reaction (even though I have been known to dwell on alternatives just because there could have been alternatives).

[Curry]

why do you need a shrink, are you mentally ill ?

[Tricky]

I think that Tricky is alluding to the way that many people believe that real life should be like a Disney movie--where people crowd around a hospital bed and sob and comfort each other and say meaningful things--when in fact such real life situations are less dramatic and somewhat more macabre.

Exactly. Truth be told, I've been in situation A as well when I was 18 or so. It's kind of unrelated to this post, but my parents took care of an uncle of mine who was dying of cancer (he didn't have a family of his own to fall back on in-between hospital visits). It was really awkward to have 'death' walking around in your own house for almost six months, but it gave me ample opportunity to deal with it. Friends and family were around to take care of him every day, and I had every opportunity to talk about it with everyone. I was really quite happy for him when he was finally able to die. At the same time it got progressively awkward to practically live in a house-turned-hospital. I stayed with friend a couple of times. The whole six months were less dramatic and more macabre/awkward. But I dealt.

I don't understand why you would be stuck with what B might have been like if you are in situation A. ........ So why on earth would alternative B be better for anyone?

It is easy to wish some things never happened. I'm relating the second best thing, the desire to forget, to the complete lack of experiencing it in the first place. I'm well aware that you can never choose or switch between A and B, but that doesn't mean you might be toying with the desire. Now, the 'being stuck with it' implies that I can't put this in any other framework than the one I gave you - completely acknowledging that it can be flawed. If I can correct that -and mind that I'm in B, not in A-, I can perhaps get on writing. This is so far the best I can do though.

I however completely disagree that deletion is a sound and healthy way to deal with memories. Whatever good or bad things happen to you, deletion of memories means you can no longer take advantage of that experience in future situations.

That's all I'm quoting, since you're getting very off track with the rest. Deletion of the memory, compiling and everything; that's the key to what I'm trying to explain. I allow myself to forget something after I've compiled it (so technically, I never mentioned I had trouble 'deleting' what happened to me, I just haven't gotten around to compiling yet). And what I compile is what I take with me, not the memory itself. I may have used some computery words to describe that, but there are all kinds of ways to do that. Think of 'Boy Meets World', that old sitcom. The narrator to that series always draws conclusions on what takes place. I see it as something similar to that.

Sleep it probably the most widely acknowledged method. I write a lot, and ask myself hard questions all the time, which helps. Dragon Wench actually of taught me earlier this year that expression in art can help you with this as well. I suspect there are dozens of methods, and I've only scraped the surface. I don't need the memories themselves. Pictures too by the way, I never hold on to them. Not because I hate making them or anything, people always love that stuff, especially since digital cameras became so popular. I've pretty much always felt they are not important to me, and I've recently taken that into my little philosophy.

It feels kind of ironic when I think about it, the way we are doomed to forget pretty much everything we remember anyway - before we have a chance to die, I mean. I figure, in eighty years or so when I've lost most of my marbles, the last thing I'll have to hold on to is my own personality, my ego, psyche, whatever. By then I better make damn sure I've 'compiled' it into something trustworthy, or interesting to the cute little robot nurses that will have to take care of me by then.

[Moonbiter]

@Tricky: Good thread, wrong forum.

I've watched quite a few people die, from instant death to slow burnout. The moment you get "used to it" is the moment you REALLY need to see a shrink. Of the original gang of about 35 people that I hung out with in high school, nine is alive today. I've tried to be present when they passed away. It builds character, but empathy-wise, you can't and you should NEVER get used to it.

Death is difficult! You can get used to it, or you don't. My advice, jaded as it may be, is to deal with it when the time comes, and do NOT motor away from it. In your life, someone you care for is gonna die. Be there.

[Tricky]

@Tricky: Good thread, wrong forum.

Yeah, you're right. I probably should have posted this in the Mass Effect forum.

Seriously though, I can't think of a better place. Stuff gets sorted out in SYM. I don't know if it's age or something else, it just does.

About the other things you said- I'm with you there, I thank you and I appreciate the advice, but it's just not what this thread is about. Curry, you as well. I'm not going to talk off subject about myself or anything else, I'm just here to get some... shall we say conceptual things solved for that little paper I'm working on. I personally don't like it when people start talking about their sick cat, just receive some fleeting sense of compassion and I need to stress that's not why I wrote this. I'll be as academic about it as I can, I don't need anyone feeling sorry for me. I'll be a jerk if it helps me keep the thread on track, I will.

[Lady Dragonfly]

I suspect there are dozens of methods, and I've only scraped the surface.
...
Deletion of the memory, compiling and everything; that's the key to what I'm trying to explain. I allow myself to forget something after I've compiled it (so technically, I never mentioned I had trouble 'deleting' what happened to me, I just haven't gotten around to compiling yet).

That is what happens when we spend too much time in a virtual reality: we start talking about our memories as if we are talking about files stored on a hard drive. My brain definitely needs defragmentation. And some antivirus and antijunk protection. Come to think of it, a few more GB would not hurt either.

There is no better cure for melancholy than a new adventure, Marten. Ditch your shrink - it seems that she creates new problems instead of helping you solve the existing one (which is what exactly?). Why are you so intent on analyzing and rationalizing? If you seek to forget, then stop focusing on it, just let go. Find a new focus, shift your attention.

Burn your notes, change your apartment, join a fitness club, travel to Himalayan Mountains, find a smart, cheerful lover, learn Klingonaase if you haven't yet.

Enjoy life and reH nay'meylIjyIn Dujablu'jaj !


(May your dishes be always served alive)

[C Elegans]

I think that Tricky is alluding to the way that many people believe that real life should be like a Disney movie--where people crowd around a hospital bed and sob and comfort each other and say meaningful things--when in fact such real life situations are less dramatic and somewhat more macabre.

Honestly I can't remember having seen any movie where death has been depicted the way you describe above. Would you say this is a common image of how life ends?
In any case, I still have trouble understanding the connection between alternative A, knowing the details about a persons death or even being present, and the Disney pastisch.

That was exactly my own reaction (even though I have been known to dwell on alternatives just because there could have been alternatives).

As a shrink, I must say that ruminating alternatives just because they exist, can be a very destructive behaviour in the sense that it prevents people from going forward and put the past in an adequate perspective. Considering the different alternatives when you are able to choose is adequate and helpful, but dwelling on theoretical "alternatives" that are no real alternatives since you cannot choose to change things in the past, is certainly not helpful and productive. That's why I do not at all understand the point of Tricky's "dilemma".

It's easy but completely meaningless to wish that things that has happened, never happened. I something happens that you wish you have never experienced, I completely disagree that the second best thing is to forget that it happened. The second best thing is to accept that it happened, deal with it, cope with it, evaluate how you can use this experience in a positive way and go on with your life. Toying with the desire to switch between A and B may be entertaining for some people in the same way as toying with other impossible fantasies may be entertaining, but do you mean this "toying" with alternatives is meaningful or developing in some way? If so, I don't understand what you mean.

Deletion of the memory, compiling and everything; that's the key to what I'm trying to explain. I allow myself to forget something after I've compiled it (so technically, I never mentioned I had trouble 'deleting' what happened to me, I just haven't gotten around to compiling yet). And what I compile is what I take with me, not the memory itself. I may have used some computery words to describe that, but there are all kinds of ways to do that. Think of 'Boy Meets World', that old sitcom.

Can you describe what you mean by "deletion" and "compilation" and why you believe this is desirable? What do you mean is gained by this "deletion"? I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about. We humans percept a lot of sensory stimuli, which we interpret. Some of those stimuli, we form memories out of. Over times, our memories will change since we constantly reinterpret and "reshape" our selves including our perception of both the past and the present. Is this what you refer to as "compilation"? Memories do not consist of the exact perception we had of the situation when it happened. Is this what you refer to as "deletion"? Or do you refer to something else?

I have no idea what "Boy meets world" is, so could you try to describe it some other way?

Sleep it probably the most widely acknowledged method. I write a lot, and ask myself hard questions all the time, which helps. Dragon Wench actually of taught me earlier this year that expression in art can help you with this as well. I suspect there are dozens of methods, and I've only scraped the surface.

Are you saying that sleep is the most widely acknowledged method to achieve this "deletion"? If you, I guess one could say being unconscious is also an effecient way to be in a state of "deleted" memories? This methods you describe, writing, asking yourself questions, using art etc - are they methods to "delete" memories? I do not mean to critisize you in any way, I honestly would like to understand what you are talking about and what your dilemma consists of. My immedate impression is however similar to Lady Dragonfly's - ditch your shrink, it sounds like s/he is mostly teaching you how to overanalyse things in an unconstructive way. What is the aim with being so focused on this seemingly unconstructive issue?

From your previous responses to me as well as others, it appears as if you wish quite specific and narrow replies to your opening post. I am however not sure whether you mean you would like an academic (fact based, scientific) response, or a personal response (like sharing of personal experiences, or based on your individual situation which I personally know nothing about).

[Tricky]

That is what happens when we spend too much time in a virtual reality: we start talking about our memories as if we are talking about files stored on a hard drive. My brain definitely needs defragmentation. And some antivirus and antijunk protection. Come to think of it, a few more GB would not hurt either.

I've used it as a metaphor, I thought I made that clear. Damn, you make me sound like a real looney now.
It's easier to explain this way, that's all there is to it. Of course I don't mean instantly forgetting with deleting, and I don't imply I can compile a memory in 0.008 seconds. Moving on and losing the ye olde baggage, that's what I mean. Do I actually have to use a world like ye before people start to take me seriously?

Why are you so intent on analyzing and rationalizing? If you seek to forget, then stop focusing on it, just let go.

Well, it's in my nature I guess. It feels a little flattering when someone points that out, it happens all the time. This shrink tries to accommodate me rather than his etch-a-sketch. I haven't experienced that treatment yet, I rather like it. And these assignments, I can appreciate them too. It feels good to work on something the whole time between sessions, rather than review my status quo one hour before it one.


C Elegans - what you don't understand about my A/B question is part of the problem, I see that much. Perhaps in writing this I'm supposed become aware why, because as I've stressed before, I can't connect the dots either. This is as best as I can do, so telling me I don't make any sense doesn't do much for me.

With narrow replies I assume you mean on topic, I just don't want to deviate. With 'academic' I stress that that I can't delve into specifics and am hence trying to keep this discussion.. what's the word.. not about 'me', but these hypothetical questions. I shouldn't have written 'most widely acknowledged' about sleeping, that was bull. I'd rather say it's more easily understood by most folk. Wrote everything in the moment. What I don't appreciate is the sharp deconstructing the moment what I say doesn't come together well. It would be worrisome if it was. As for Boy Meets World, I explained in the next sentence that there is a narrator who summarizes what occurs. That's the core right there, what more do you want? If you wished to accommodate my earlier request of not straying off topic, you could've just Googled it up. Have I upset you? I don't like the tone of your writing.

[Claudius]

According to my philosophy you have a basic heart response connected to your desire to be happy. The goodness of your heart. This response is luminescent in that you can perceive what the contents are of your mind -- they are apparent. On the other hand you cannot pigeonhole them. In that sense they are ungraspable.

And this is what ignorance does (not a personal failing..I mean a misunderstanding of how reality functions). It overlays your wise knowing heart response with a lot of junk which is all just thinking.

My advice is to remember that you are just thinking. It is no big deal. You cannot fix the impermanent world. It is broken. And don't take that as depressing. Since you cannot fix it why worry about it. Be happy. Make vows to do something to uplift yourself whatever that may be.

The goodness of your heart is the direction to follow. Find out what you want. Then find out why you want that and if there is a deeper need. Eventually it comes back to the goodness of your heart which you can find joy in.

[imawindowlickr]

My best friend several years ago just started dating the girl of his dreams. A month into that wonderful relationship he was diagnosed with a tumor and had 2 months to live. (no this isn't one of those happy ending things). He gave her an out. Their relationship was new, she didn't take it. He died in a horrible fashion. Quick by time line standards but slow watching him waste away, She stayed by his side and loved him with all she was till he died by her side. I asked her why she didn't take the out. Aside from the obvious love answer, she stayed to share his experience and it helped him in his last days. Are you willing enough to live and share that? Are you willing to share in the end of someones life? That person may benefit from your presence.

[VonDondu]

Well, it's in my nature I guess. It feels a little flattering when someone points that out, it happens all the time...

We have a tendency to believe that our "best" features define who we are. There was a similar tendency among early philosophers to describe the "nature" of various creatures according to their traits or skills that made them unique. What is the essence of a bird? What is the essence of a human? The ability to reason and to be aware of oneself supposedly makes humans unique. That's not the sort of thing that's conclusive when it comes to modern philosophy and science, but that was the idea back then. But anyway, when sensititive, intelligent people feel like they're not much good at anything else (rightly or wrongly), they pride themselves on their intellect. It's their best trait, so their ego depends on it, and the surest way to shatter their confidence is to challenge their intellect. I know this from personal experience.

Maybe someday you will outgrow the need to over-analyze everything and the tendency to pride yourself on your analytical nature. I have found that life is much more peaceful and my ego is much more comfortable if I stop worrying about every little detail and let the world go by without trying to understand every part of it. I like myself not because I have any particular gift, but just because I like being who I am. That's better than knowing the answer to every dilemma I come across.

[Lady Dragonfly]

I've used it as a metaphor, I thought I made that clear. Damn, you make me sound like a real looney now.

At least you don't sound like the Grim Reaper any more.

Do I actually have to use a world like ye before people start to take me seriously?

I am taking ye seriously, regardless. But being serious does not mean being mournful. As a matter of fact, if your final goal is peace of mind, try to look at your "dilemma" with a bit (or a byte) of humor. It is healthier than confabulation. I mean no disrespect.

This shrink tries to accommodate me rather than his etch-a-sketch. I haven't experienced that treatment yet, I rather like it. And these assignments, I can appreciate them too. It feels good to work on something the whole time between sessions, rather than review my status quo one hour before it one.

I know you like to write. I suspect you invested a lot of points in your Creative Writing skill. I suppose in your assignment you attempt to describe your emotions, explain your position and reassess your perceptions of what happened or what might have happened, for your shrink and for yourself, yet at the same time you strive to compose an essay of some literary value, don't you? I don't think you experience a sort of writer's block or lack insights - it is the strange topic of your assignment that makes writing so difficult. It is hard to elaborate on something so... I dare say, meaningless and retain sanity and self-esteem.
OK, let's examine your troublesome B:

B. You're not around. Through circumstances beyond your control you also never get to know what happened. You're stuck with the lingering question of what 'A' might have been like.

Now it seems we are back to our computerized logic: you did not get to know the details. But who said that you would NEVER get to know what happened? Who predetermined that? Who wrote that damn program? Only if all witnesses, all people who know (and I assume lots of different people do) what happened will be incinerated by the Hellfire tomorrow, you will never know the whole story. Otherwise, there is always a possibility that you will learn some day, somehow.

Until then, accept your lot. If you feel guilty deep in your heart, accept your quilt instead of trying to dull the pangs of your conscience by rationalizing.
And honor the memory of your friend. Would your friend like you to “delete” your memories? Would you like your close friends to “delete” their memories of you if you die? Just live your life, enjoy being wonderfully imperfect. Let go. Don't forget to burn your essay.

Perhaps you feel that all I wrote was shallow compare to the infinite wisdom of your “lingering question” dilemma...

...yet I still maintain that fresh air, a bit of vigorous exercise, and a cheerful lover are better for mental health than any shrink.

[C Elegans]

C Elegans - what you don't understand about my A/B question is part of the problem, I see that much. Perhaps in writing this I'm supposed become aware why, because as I've stressed before, I can't connect the dots either. This is as best as I can do, so telling me I don't make any sense doesn't do much for me.

My main question remains: why is this important to you? What do you want to achieve, what is the aim of pondering these alternatives? That something does not make sense, doesn't necessarily mean that it holds a deep, elusive meaning. If fact, that something doesn't make sense, is quite often because it simply makes no sense.

With narrow replies I assume you mean on topic, I just don't want to deviate. With 'academic' I stress that that I can't delve into specifics and am hence trying to keep this discussion.. what's the word.. not about 'me', but these hypothetical questions. I shouldn't have written 'most widely acknowledged' about sleeping, that was bull. I'd rather say it's more easily understood by most folk. Wrote everything in the moment. What I don't appreciate is the sharp deconstructing the moment what I say doesn't come together well. It would be worrisome if it was. As for Boy Meets World, I explained in the next sentence that there is a narrator who summarizes what occurs. That's the core right there, what more do you want? If you wished to accommodate my earlier request of not straying off topic, you could've just Googled it up. Have I upset you? I don't like the tone of your writing.

With narrow I mean specific. I have problems understanding what you want with your dilemma and what answers you want from us. Thus, it is very difficult for me to predict what you will find on- and off topic. If you desire highly specific and precise answers, you should perhaps try to describe more specifically what you want?
Btw, I am not upset by what your write but come to think of it, it may be a bit upsetting that your psychiatrist reinforce your rumination of this type of issues

If I understand you correctly, the point of this "deletion" and "compilation" of memories, is that you want memories of unpleasant things to be like a narrators meta-perspective. "Deletion" of memories does not exist unless you damage your brain. I don't understand how you mean sleep and this deletion are related to each other.
Luckily for you however, I can tell you that part of the human consciousness and memory system works just like a meta-perspective, automatically, without you having to force it or write essays about it. As I explained above, our memories of what we percept and experience constantly change over time, we constantly reinterpret and "reshape" our memories and our memory of our memories. Memory is not static, and previous memories are re-interpreted and re-organized in the context of new experiences. This is regardless of whether the memories are pleasant or unpleasant. (Memory research on traumatic events show that unpleasant memories are not a specific category that differs from other memories.) If you are interested in these type of questions, I heartily recommend you to read Antonio Damasio's "The Feeling of What Happens". It's one of the best and most readable popular science books about the process of consciousness and memory.

[Claudius]

If there is something troubling you, you are right. If after reflection, you still think there is something troubling you, though you can't pinpoint it, you are still right - because thinking you are troubled is itself trouble. Just be sure you were not searching for a rabbit horn or tortoise hair - something which does not exists - like a phantom worry that sustains a phantom pain.

This is from a newsletter I received. I don't want to give you the wrong idea and say you should deny your vexation but I am urging to consider the possibility that the greatest source of trouble is that you think you are troubled which feels uncomfortable. I think the remedy is to let go non-conceptually and feel that pain. Rest in it.

I hope this helps.

[Tricky]

Ah screw it, I'm turning it in. I'll never complete it this way. I guess it's impossible to objectify something that's too personal and specific to be understood without details. I don't care anymore.


... hey, maybe that was the point?