Trying to figure out a party w/ NPCs I've hardly used before:

[Jedi_Sauraus]

You know how overpowered I think mages are :laugh: no need to elaborate here. of course a sorceror *ahem* a "buffed melee mage type" would win against the Monk. The wizard slayer dualed to thief would also win vs a monk I totally agree here. Past level 13 your're getting 90% of the WS's advantages then adding all the advantages of a thief and subtracting all the weaknesses of the WS through UAI.

To me "Cannot use magic items except for weapons and armor" means just that no: amulets, wands, green scrolls, Vhalor's (though apparently the vanilla WS can use it, based on Saros' post), Rings, mage scrolls, priest scrolls admittedly of small use, and potions except for healing potions. Even with the hp discrepancy, which should only be 20 points again 1d8 vs 1d10 for the first 10 levels then everybody gets 3hp/level or am I missing anything here??, a monk can use the wand that acts as an instant ranged heal giving him the upper hand. It boils down to what exactly the WS can or cannot use and nobody seems know 100% the exact limitations. With the ability to use of the right few items yes he can overpower the monk.

[Crenshinibon]

Alright, I tested it out and yes, as you said, a Wizard Slayer CANNOT use Rings, Amulets or Cloaks. Still, due to such an extensive array of equipment that he CAN use, the Wizard Slayer can gain many abilities. Also, the Defender of Easthaven is a pretty big asset to the Wizard Slayer's repertoire. With all the equipment choices set and HLAs aside, the WS would have a lower THAC0 and also an additional 1/2 attack per round. Although the Monk CAN use wands, although I am unsure which ones. Still, through the Wand of Wonder he can gain the Stoneskin effect.

The WS and the Monk are very similiar so to me, it seems that they are almost the same character, except that the Monk is defensive while the WS is offensive. However, in a duel between the two, the WS would surely win.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Arg I can't seem to find the name of the wand on this site which instantly acts as a heal.

I thought that without haste both monk and WS end up with 4.5 APR. Whatever, even assuming he ends up with .5 extra attacks per round, the monk should do roughly 5-10 dmg more per attack so the diffference, even if still in favour of the WS, is negligible.

The stone skin while an advantage is IMHO hardly critical. The monk will waste 1 round casting it and will not be able to activate GWW in that round. If the monk can use the wand that heals it's over for the WS. This is really the Critical item IMHO. Thac0 wise both of them will have roughly -15 or less meaning that both will hit on anything but a 1. If both can prebuff before the fight the Monk also has the advantage of using potions to get nice boosts to pretty much everything.

Regardless of all that was just said, my original point was that the monk is a strong class and is not ALOT worse for soloing (it may indeed be better) than the single classed WS. The fact that the WS cannot be improve hasted, since as you tested he cannot wear that amulet, and the fact that he can't use the insta heal wand, really work against him more than anything else really.

[Dummy]

Jedi_Sauraus:
i think you underestimate the power of movement, even if the monk was cought instantly meele, he would be able to run away and buff himself/heal and then join the fight once more and since he is faster then the unhasted ws he will always be able to run away, if the ws gwws himself so he gets haste the monk could continue running and so the gww is wasted with a proper micro the monk should have an edge by his natural improved speed

[Crenshinibon]

Without the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Expertise, the Monk has 4 attacks per round. The WS does more damage and even then, that hardly matters as the WS has access to increased life through bonuses and items, as well as vorpal weapons that can end the fight quickly.

The wand you're thinking of is called the Wand of Ressurection while the wand that could give Stoneskin is called the Wand of Wonder, no casting time but random effects.

The WS CAN be hasted, only not by himself, through another spellcaster while the Monk can't be hasted at all.

The Monk also has less THAC0 than the WS, probably around -11 or so.

Undoubtedly though, in a party, the WS becomes a greater asset.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Undoubtedly though, in a party, the WS becomes a greater asset.

- what has more value undoubtedly depends on how much value you place on the monks scouting role for which innate stealth ability is critical, but yeah from a powerplaying perspective I agree


@ Crenshinibon: How will the WS do more damage ?? you can safely assume that so long as I've got GWW I'll be using the monk only gloves from fish city which give an extra +4 damage. One way or the other 15GWW or so, even 10, will last the fight. If memory serves and there are no other damage increasing items thats 1d20 +4 because fists are +4 weapons and +4 from the gloves, I just can't think of any weapon that can mach that damage hit for hit. Which isn't to say there are no better weapons of course sometimes secondary attributes are important as well.

Another thing, I don't think vorpal effects would work either as all important characters seem to be immune. With Raveger Yaga-Shura for example should, statistically fall in 1 round yet he doesn't. Even with the vorpal effect cheese it would be back to throwing returnable daggers at the WS and running like mad not a satisfying way to win, but hey what works. The Monk is the fastest unit in the game after all.

@ Dummy: I don't underestimate it at all I (ab)use it many many times. However in a 1 on 1 fight vs the WS, I went on the safe side and assumed the WS has access to boots of speed. While the monk could still win 1 vs 1 through use hit and fade tactics, wand of ressurection, and use of invisibility potions should the dual be in a limited area, I have my doubts now whether he's strong enough to simply tank a WS head on. Primarly because of the Simmy from Vhalor's. Then again the Simmy could be waited out through an invisibility potion or innate hiding ability, depending on the Battlefield.

[Crenshinibon]

Through weapons the WS would have a higher or equal damage output as a monk. Also, don't forget that the WS is subject to a 20% (60%) physical resistance which makes him better at tanking as AC soon becomes easily penetrated. Also, there are around seven characters that are immune to the vorpal effect, that's it, which still leaves a good portion of enemies that can be instantly killed, including dragons. Still, I'm not sure whether or not the Five are affected by it.

Pfft. That would not work as the Monk's THAC0 with that weapon is too low to hit the WS. From the character classes it maybe, but not in the entire game.

[Saros]

What items precisly is a Wizard slayer allowed to use ?? I always thought he was disallowed to use anything expect for armour and weapons. There are plenty of useful boots cloaks rings ect.

Boots are considered armor. So A WS can use all of the boots in the game. Top choices - gargoyle boots and boots of speed, but also of Grounding and of the North.

Helmets and Shields, Armor and all weapons and their special abilities a WS can use. A Monk cannot.

Cloak of Protection +2 is undoubtedly the most useful of all cloaks. Unfortunately, it is quite useless to a Monk, because it is used mostly for improved haste for soloers.

A WS cannot use any item granting Invisibility, except the Dagger of the Stars(which isn't very convenient).

A WS can use the Darkfire Bow in order to be Impr hasted. Indeed, the offer is one-time per day, but on lvl 40, it is surely enough if you plan your strategy right.

My WS was a half-orc with 19 natural constitution, maybe that's why the HP difference was so obvious. Moreover, most of the time I was equipped with the Axe of the Unyielding(+1 Constitution). A Monk cannot equip those two items.

Secondly last time I checked magic resistance protected against imprisonment. Abazigal, try as he might could not imprison the monk. whether or not the WS is stronger depends on what he can use. Particularly I'm interested which wands he can use.

Vhalor's helm is a strong advantage but I never use it, and IMO duplicating scrolls using Vhalor's is the hight of cheese. Also remember that the Monk can outpace anybody and hide in shadows with non-detection for hit and run tactics or simply to take a breather from a hard battle. This is an enormous advantage, especially when soloing. Yes the WS can rely on invisibility potions (can he??) but even if so the enemy will just cast true sight.

Unless you're not patched or installed fixes, maybe MR really protects vs Imprisonment. Yet it isn't meant to.

Seconldy, a Monk cannot use any wands. The reason that he could use those in an unpatched game is simply a bug, which was fixed via patches&fixpacks. A Monk cannot wear also the Amulet of Power or use Clerical scrolls(unlike the unpatched game), thus being constanlty subject to Lvl-draining attacks until the middle of ToB.

Vhailor is a good advantage, but for soloers it is a must-have. Not for copying scrolls, but I simply pointed that out to notify that a Monk cannot do that even if he must.

A Wizard-Slayer can use: healing potions, antidote potions, boots(gargoyle for stoneskin, of haste for speed), helmets, armor, weapons, Rod of Reversal, Wand of Cursing, all kind of Green Protection Scrolls, Rod of Resurrection, Amulet of the Seldarine. So while a Monk will have a Resurrection Rod for instant heal, so will a solo WS. A Monk can use the Wand of Wonder for Stoneskin, but a WS can use the Gargoyle boots pretty much in the same manner.

Overall, I wasn't comparing the two classes in melee, because a Monk will probably win. Because of the Stunning Fist. A WS's saving throws are awful, especially the vs Spells saving throw. Even with items.