Sorcerers vs. dual classed Mages:

[Klorox]

I know the Sorcerer is a totally bad-ass spellcaster, and with spells like Project Image can beat just about anything in the game, but is a Sorcerer a better character than a dual classed Mage who begins as a Thief (for a few skills, like dealing with locks and traps when not casting) or as a Fighter (who has a lot of HP to play with as well as the ability to fire a longbow when spells run out) or even a Cleric (who will still have more HP than a Mage as well as some very different magicks to play with)?

Let the debate begin!

[Silvanerian]

Better...as in what way?

Since you ask this, I assume you are looking for comparisons without taking into account the rest of the party.

I can only think of a few situations where the sorceror will have problems.

1. The 'dead/wild magic' zones. While doable, a pain for a pure spellcaster.

2. Places where sleep is not available and spells have been exhausted. Though Wish can handle that, it is not a save bet unless you are willing to reload. And if you're willing to re-load, then you are willing to use other exploits, which then renders this discussion somewhat redundant as any class which can cast arcane spells can then become the mother of all powerhouses.

'Better', I suppose, all boils down to what you yourself is best at..

However, if you have to dual class, what exactly will a few thief or cleric skills bring to the table in the long run? Not much, if anything at all in my opinion.
The fighter however - you never go wrong with a bit of extra HPs and the ability to mow down the lesser critters with a sword.. and just because the IA is horrible with powerwords, doesn't mean it couldn't happen..
Though, overall, when you dual you sacrifice 1 spell slot per level as you cannot specialise...to a level 30 mage/sorceror, is 60-70 HPs worth an extra 1st-9th level spell considering Vampiric Touch and larlocs minor drain on some poor summon (or your own mirror image) will give you around 40 HPs? Personal taste..

[Jedi_Sauraus]

weeeeeeeeeee a thread about my favorite class. Short answer to your question: yes. The sorceror is more powerful arcane wise than any other possible X > Mage combo and I highly reccommend him . I would take something else only if your going to solo, losing arcane offense is offset by not having to deal with annoyances such as locks or traps. For a Solo char there's the classic Kensai 13 > Mage, good because you don't have to waste spells killing fodder as the level 13 kensai is a good tank.

You can also try the wild mage, they can be more powerful....... but lots of times the spell will just blow up in your face requiring a reload, not really my cup of tea. Specialist mages are no use because all they get is 1 extra spell per level but they lose an entire school for that benefit and a Sorceror is still better while having access to all schools.

Oh and as a Sorceror there is no reason you would really run out of spells Though I can't really reccommend such foul cheese.

[Crenshinibon]

Well, first of all, you might as well dual class. The only reason not to is if you're going for a specialist mage. A mage reaches level 31 at 7875000 experience, leaving 125000 experience wasted, unless you dual class.

I usually dual class late in the first class, around level twenty. This way the first class gets as strong as it can with dual classing and the second class (if a spellcaster) doesn't lose that much as duration and other effects do not change after level twenty. The only reason for going higher in a spellcasting class is to get more spell slots and possibly the high level abilities.

Take the Kensai/Mage for example. They'd probably be using the same spells as a sorcerer would, right? It's clear to everyone what the useful spells are. This combination could fully utilize Tensor's Transformation and Improved Haste as well as Shapechange. Not only does he have more health than the mage, but he has more AC and more melee power.

The Thief/Mage (maybe an Assassin/Mage or even a Swashbuckler/Mage) also gets great bonuses over the sorcerer. They get a much better AC, better than the Kensai/Mage too (in the case of a Swashbuckler) as well as the Greater Evasion ability, to increase speed and defense, Whirlwind (if you don't feel like spending slots on Improved Haste) or traps, if you feel like being cheap.

The cleric/mage (Priest of Lathander/Mage) is quite similar to the other class combination except that here we have a spellcaster dualed to another spellcaster. With this class come some interesting possibilities, such as sequencing a combination of arcane and divine spells for quick buffs and here you are, offensively, better than a cleric AND a mage. You can achieve a good THAC0 through buffs and gain increased hitpoints through spells on both sides. The divine side gives you plenty of resistances (including to physical) as well as stat and AC boosts, regeneration, easier time with undead and extra attacks per round, not to mention the ability to use heavier armor and more weapons. Legally, without exploiting stacking, the class can do six attacks per round while in humanoid form ten attacks per round in Greater Wolfwere form, doing maximum damage and actually hitting.

Note how all these classes have an edge in combat, so playing them would be almost in the same fashion as a bard. Most of your spells would be cast before going to battle, which works very well with the cleric/mage combination.

[Saros]

Bonuses and penalties of different arcane casters:

Vanilla Mage - has all spells, but too few ninth level slots(only four at lvl 26, which is max), and fewer lower level slots than a specialist mage.

Specialist Mage - lacks certain spell school, but gets an extra spell for each level - most importantly, lvl 9. Meaning that lvl 9 slots will be five at lvl 26. Of course, there are vital schools which are best untouched, so I'd say that an Invoker is the perfect specialist - with only Greater Malinson lacking(the rest arcane enchantment type spells are crap). While most consider the Wild Mage the best specialist, I'd say that unless you apply some exploit like loading 3 Chaos Shields in a Sequencer, then the WM is highly unreliable(especially in a no-reload solo).

Specialist Mage dualled to a Fighter - not good. Because even if dualled at lvl 20, this means only 3 ninth lvl slots, and of course, too few HLAs(only 3 wizard HLAs and 5-6 warrior HLAs).

Specialist Mage dualled to a Thief or Cleric - better, because this way a Specialist can dual at lvl 22, meaning 4 ninth lvl slots, which are sufficient, provided you gain additional spells/skills from the other class. The HLAs are few indeed, yet if wisely picked, this is no problem at all. My personal favourite class is the Invoker(22)-Cleric(23) - great spell choice, all buffs available, and yet with far more spell slots available than a Cleric/Mage multiclass. For instance, a Cleric/Mage will have only 2 ninth lvl spell slots at 8 mil xp, while an Invoker-Cleric will have four.

Multiclass Mage/anyclass - not good. At 8 mil xp your specialist will have no more than two ninth level slots. And too few spell slots overall.

Fighter/Cleric/Thief dualled to a Mage - if dualled at low level, not bad, yet this means no first class HLAs and a spell slot less in each lvl 1-9 compared to a specialist. I'd certainly not dual any of those at higher levels. I'd say that lvl 13 is excellent for dualling a Fighter, and lvl 14 is great for dualling a Cleric(7th lvl spell), and still they will get four ninth lvl slots at xp cap. And a Simulacrum will be powerful too.

Sorcerer - indeed the most powerful class, mostly because of the ability to choose what exactly spell wants to cast and not being stuck to fixed 'memorized' spells. This is even better demonstrated with Projected Images and Simulacra. One more thing, a 31 lvl sorcerer can create a Simmy which can cast ninth lvl spells. A 31 lvl wizard cannot, and a dual/multiclassed wizard will have too weak a Simulacrum, which is a great drawback. Moreover, with proper spell selection, the Dead and Wild Magic zones are easy for a solo Sorcerer. Because Contingency and Chain Contingency work without trouble in the Dead magic zones. And the Wild magic zones are easy if you don't rely on spellcasting, but on buffing, items, and mainly - Shapechange. The Iron Golem form is the best thing to deal with the annoying Quasits in the first Wild Zone, and for the second - the Mindflayer buffed form kills everyone in 3 rounds.

[Crenshinibon]

In my opinnion, the extra slots are nothing more than convenience, if you *really* don't want to rest. You need at least two.

I don't think sequencing three Chaos Shields makes them stack.

I stand by what I said before as some of the high level abilities are not going to be used, such as Comet or Energy Blades.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Yeah melee wise the Kensai>Mage is better and does have an edge over the sorceror in a solo game where the mage dosn't have a tank to take hits for him (this is only because of the versatility needed in solo). However if you dual so late you're a walking liability for a good chunk of the game (unless you solo) and with a level 20 or so Kensai you lose a ridiculous amount of arcane power; which is not worth the small advantage of 1 or 2 GWW or a hardiness. If your getting hit your not playing the mage correctly anyway. Dualing so late should only be considered in the case of an assasin for the 7x multiplier and UAI. Even then I say level 9 slots are worth their weight in gold and it's not really worth it. The Cleric/Mage can pull of some useful combos such as timestop + harm, but he is crippled as well because of having only 2 level 9 slots. A cleric > Mage is IMHO alot better as long as you dual so you have at least 4 level 9 slots, preferably 5.

Another thing to mention is that with the sorceror you can select your spells dynamically in combat as conditions change. BGII isn't a chessboard and things will go wrong in a fight. As a mage you have to rest and tailor your picks to every single fight, and even then if something goes wrong and say the enemy buffs up and you don't have a breach, this amounts to a reload. The sorceror would have access to it as long as he has a 5th level spell available. This essentially means that as a sorceror you get the most out all your spells every fight, while as a mage even if you select the right spells and rest (how annoying to do this every fight) changing conditions will mean some of your spells become useless.

As far as spells are concerned 5 spells per level is more than enough to take you through the game as long as you select wisely. For those few spells that are extremely useful in but a few fights you can always have a clone cast it from a scroll. The only real contentder to the Sorceror is the Wild Mage and Kensai 13 > Mage. In a team however you don't need the your arcane caster to fill in the role of a tank, and it's much better to have more arcane offense.
The Wild Mage is a poor choice for team play as well because of the possible bad effects and miscasts which can screw over your team at a critical moment. I'll give him credit though because later on Nahal's Reckless Dweomer is........ all I can say is WOW

[rbeverjr]

Klorox, are you going to post all your questions in 2 different forums? Without further details, it is difficult to answer your question. Soloing, the sorcerer is easier than the dual after a short while. Magic is power and using magic most effectively is the route to power. Ultimately, the single class wild mage is most powerful, but wild magic can be irritating at low levels.

Someone cited efficiency of XP utilization. I would rather cite the techniques that allow the most efficient killing of monsters. What is the dual going to bring that will enhance those preferred techniques? Check Alesia's techniques soloing Ascension on insane with a sorcerer.

Now for a team, there can be very good reasons to choose a dual character, particularly the thief-mage. Which is best depends on how many characters you will have on the team, the mods (if any) that you will install, and your style of play. I often play with a sorcerer and a dual class mage.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I disagree here to an extent. Here's why: I've heard rumours that somebody solo'ed ascension with a beast master!!. While My well equiped teams consisting of at least 3 good tanks, and 2 good arcane casters, (Edwin and Imoen), after multiple tries, had to resort to cheese to beat ascension.
(The final fight of course and not the Improved 5 fights which were simply fun)

The point here is that with enough skills, knowledge of the engine, and how to exploit it, any class especially one dualed to mage has the raw power to solo. I mean come on if a beast master can do it ?? Beast masters are easly on of the worst classes available.

IMHO for solo it's better to have more flexibility to save yourself annoyance.
The Kensai/Berserker>Mages or even thief>mages are better for soloing even though they have less raw power. Remember that even a weak mage is still a mage which is the most powerful class in BGII. I completely agree with your assesment of Sorcerors and Wild Mages

[rbeverjr]

I disagree here to an extent. Here's why: I've heard rumours that somebody solo'ed ascension with a beast master!!. While My well equiped teams consisting of at least 3 good tanks, and 2 good arcane casters, (Edwin and Imoen), after multiple tries, had to resort to cheese to beat ascension.
(The final fight of course and not the Improved 5 fights which were simply fun)

The point here is that with enough skills, knowledge of the engine, and how to exploit it, any class especially one dualed to mage has the raw power to solo. I mean come on if a beast master can do it ?? Beast masters are easly on of the worst classes available.

IMHO for solo it's better to have more flexibility to save yourself annoyance.
The Kensai/Berserker>Mages or even thief>mages are better for soloing even though they have less raw power. Remember that even a weak mage is still a mage which is the most powerful class in BGII. I completely agree with your assesment of Sorcerors and Wild Mages

I think that you have misunderstood my point. The point is not that someone could beat the Ascension battle solo on insane with a sorcerer - thetruth succeeded with only a fighter. Rather the point is that you do need optimal offensive techniques to succeed. What are those techniques? Alesia's character cast *spells.* Simply put, what the second class would bring to the table is *unnecessary,* (maybe even not helpful) and further will eliminate the great aspects of the sorcerer (extra spells, but more importantly, the ability to cast all the spells that he knows without memorizing specific ones).

Diversity can be nice, but it depends on the rules of the game (or the needs of your team or your style of play). A sorcerer would probably not succeed in soloing Improved Anvil, while it may be possible with a FMC - although I think Sikret has taken some measures to make that much more difficult in version 5. Also diversity sometimes comes at the cost of developing your true power, spell casting ability. In PnP, it is very important to get the higher level spells as quickly as possible. Usually, losing a level of spell casting ability is a bad idea. I think that is also generally true for BG2.

[Klorox]

Klorox, are you going to post all your questions in 2 different forums?

Actually more than two. Is that a problem?

[fable]

Whether anybody chooses to post their questions in GameBanshee and any other forum is a matter for them to decide. But if someone wants to challenge them on it, please take it to personal messaging. Let's keep things focused here on the points mentioned in the first post.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Hmm my point was that basically since a fighter can do Ascension as you said, for solo it's better to go with a dual class to minimize annoyance (Even a bad mage has alot more power than a fighter). The Sorceror will be better in all the harder fights, but will be banging his head a against the wall every time he gets webbed or paralized for a turn or so from some random trap.

same thing applies for combat: Do you really want to be using magic and buffing every time you get ambushed by random fodder ?? The Sorceror has the combat advantage yes, but if I run into a random enemy it's far simpler to just beat him on the head with a stick than to go through all the buffing ect.

In a team however things change and since you can have 6 people in the team each one of them should be best at a given proffesion, because together you can handle any possible situation.

[rbeverjr]

Hmm my point was that basically since a fighter can do Ascension as you said, for solo it's better to go with a dual class to minimize annoyance (Even a bad mage has alot more power than a fighter). The Sorceror will be better in all the harder fights, but will be banging his head a against the wall every time he gets webbed or paralized for a turn or so from some random trap.

same thing applies for combat: Do you really want to be using magic and buffing every time you get ambushed by random fodder ?? The Sorceror has the combat advantage yes, but if I run into a random enemy it's far simpler to just beat him on the head with a stick than to go through all the buffing ect.

In a team however things change and since you can have 6 people in the team each one of them should be best at a given proffesion, because together you can handle any possible situation.

I don't like to solo myself, but I really see no reason why a sorcerer should bang his head. Alesia is the best one to advise on solo sorcerer play; although, there are many others who I am sure would provide good advice too. I think the most important advice is buff properly.

Ah, if the requirement of buffing is an irritation, then that's another story. If you are playing a good tactically modded game or trying to play a no reload game, buffing becomes very important. A buffed sorcerer rules over the dual classes in ToB, in my opinion. Without buffs, either the dual or sorcerer is in danger of death; although, a fighter 13-mage may get away with less buffing in some battles. In teams, I see uses for both characters, and am currently playing with a dual class thief to mage and a sorcerer (in a team of 6).

In the unmodded game, the most powerful of the two becomes irrelevant because if you play well, either character can easily succeed whether in a team or solo.