Humanity stays way too high throughout

[Tiberius]

This is more like a suggestion for a later unofficial patch (I don't know if it is doable, but it seems likely), but I would also like to read what others think.

I feel that the player's humanity stays way too high throughout the game, despite doing acts that are frankly hineous, if you ponder them for a couple of seconds. Namely I am referring mostly to the quests of the Elizabeth Dane and the Museum most of all, but possibly also "Traffik". In all those instances you don't get penalized by humanity loss, if you follow the frontal assault way; the policemen on the Dane and the guards in the Museum are quite innocent though, they are no part of the Jyhad, they are not out to get you, if they get killed during those quests it is just because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Same pretty much with "Traffik" or the Russian mobsters, you have no previous problems with these people yet you deliberately go there, as part of the quest and can slaughter them with impunity. They are lowlifes perhaps, but they are still human. In fact justifying to one's self that it is alright to kill them because of that, it is already an indication of a humanity rating lower than that of the average person (around 7, your starting humanity in V:TMBL).

In fact coming close to expressing a view of mortals similar to that of Jack, that they are cattle, but that doesn't mean you have to go out of your way to kill them indicates a low enough humanity already (in the P&P I would place that around 4 or 5). Now going out of your way to do it (as you don't really need to in those quests) is way worse.

Minor things that are funny at first sight might also warrant humanity loss; sending that naive thin blood armed with a stake to kill the prince, Nines or the president of the US, taking his money in the meanwhile, doesn't really seem as a moral thing to do, when you know you probably just sent him to his death.

Spoiler:

Spoiler

Also protecting the Masquerade by killing Julius is pretty bloody inhuman as well, I really felt pity for the guy, then slashed him up expecting to lose humanity, but nothing, that really was disapointing.

I find it quite bizzare that I can play a manipulative homicidal maniac and stay at humanity 10 throughout the game, or that I don't lose humanity points for slaughtering two dozen innocent people each time I am too lazy to sneak, while I do lose humanity for nicking small change from a charity box.

Can humanity loss be implemented in quests which you don't finish the sneaky way, like the Elizabeth Dane the Museum etc, or to instances where you do something evil (though probably justified by vampire law) or conniving? What do the rest of you think?

[Wesp5]

Namely I am referring mostly to the quests of the Elizabeth Dane and the Museum most of all, but possibly also "Traffik".

The problem is that all these guys attack you with lethal force on sight which makes killing them self-defense which Jack says is allowed without loosing humanity.

Minor things that are funny at first sight might also warrant humanity loss; sending that naive thin blood armed with a stake to kill the prince, Nines or the president of the US, taking his money in the meanwhile, doesn't really seem as a moral thing to do, when you know you probably just sent him to his death.

Spoiler:

Spoiler

Also protecting the Masquerade by killing Julius is pretty bloody inhuman as well, I really felt pity for the guy, then slashed him up expecting to lose humanity, but nothing, that really was disapointing.

These two issues already cost you humanity when using the plus unofficial patch.

[Tiberius]

The problem is that all these guys attack you with lethal force on sight which makes killing them self-defense which Jack says is allowed without loosing humanity.

They do attack you, but you had no business being there in the first place, so I would say it is they who are in self defence. It is not the same as the shoot-out in the diner, that is one case where you really are in self defence.

Anyway perhaps, coming from the P&P myself, I feel humanity should be much more easily lost, especially the points between the 5-10 range; even being able to justify a kill as self defence doesn't indicate more than 6 Humanity in the P&P; a Humanity of 10 means that you qualify for a saint (of the likable variety ) and in game you can maintain that score throughout killing half the earth's population in the process. Besides there is hardly any moral high ground in the quests you undertake, most of them are literally what a mobster would do for their boss or a contractor.

Good to know about the other two already having been addressed

[Wesp5]

They do attack you, but you had no business being there in the first place, so I would say it is they who are in self defence.

But they don't ask you to leave before attacking like the guard at the Santa Monica clinic does.

Good to know about the other two already having been addressed

In the plus unofficial patch you will also loose humanity when an innocent is killed in a combat zone, regardless whether by yourself or e.g. berserck...

[Tiberius]

But they don't ask you to leave before attacking like the guard at the Santa Monica clinic does.

In my opinion, a person who is not a hardened killer would try to escape or hide, if someone shot at them for being in a place where they shouldn't be; firing back or hitting back in any way with lethal force is not what a person of standard humanity would do in such an instance. It is not a matter of self defence, like killing a hunter (even a kill in self defence would cause a loss of humanity in the P&P, if you started at anything above 6 btw), it is a matter of breaking and entering, then murdering those you found there and claiming it was self defence because they started firing! I am a bit sceptical that you would convince anyone in a court of law that you killed in self defence.

Btw, in the unofficial patch, do you lose humanity for seducing that hospital guard and drinking him dry? That would be appropriate too, imo.

In the plus unofficial patch you will also loose humanity when an innocent is killed in a combat zone, regardless whether by yourself or e.g. berserck...

Those changes seem intriguing, perhaps I should try that patch.

[Wesp5]

Btw, in the unofficial patch, do you lose humanity for seducing that hospital guard and drinking him dry? That would be appropriate too, imo.

Yes, you will loose humanity if you kill him unless he attacks you first with lethal force which then again is self-defense to me.

Those changes seem intriguing, perhaps I should try that patch.

After you have already played the game like it was released go ahead and try the patch. You will be surprised about how much cool stuff was unfinished!

[ahs]

Yes, you will loose humanity if you kill him unless he attacks you first with lethal force which then again is self-defense to me.

Well, the story doesn't glue : > Why? Cuz it's the job for the guard. What's more he warns you about 3 times and if you don't withdraw, he starts to shootcha till you drop dead. For you it's self-defence, for him it's the job. If you're a gdmfsob you just pull out your fangs and sink'em as deep as possible and drain him dry, no to make lots of noise.

And what about the humanity staying too high? Well, it was kinda easy for me to keep it low, no efforce. But here's the thing that is common to every RPG, if you want to be badass be prepaired to lose lots of experience points along with good artifacts that could be obtained thanks to being Mr Nice-guy.

[Tiberius]

And what about the humanity staying too high? Well, it was kinda easy for me to keep it low, no efforce. But here's the thing that is common to every RPG, if you want to be badass be prepaired to lose lots of experience points along with good artifacts that could be obtained thanks to being Mr Nice-guy.

You really have to go out of your way killing innocents on the street to reach low humanity; if you are just a bit careful and never kill when you feed and don't start streetfights (you don't need to, you gain nothing, plus its unrealistic RP-wise), you won't end up with less than 7 humanity by the end of the game. My point is that if you acted that aggressive in the P&P (on which the game is based), you would never end up with more than 4 or 5 humanity by the end of the game.

[Kid SixXx]

Same pretty much with "Traffik" or the Russian mobsters, you have no previous problems with these people yet you deliberately go there, as part of the quest and can slaughter them with impunity.

Eh, wiping out Boris and his minions is pretty much rescuing a damsel in distress so to speak, given what Venus has had to endure to keep her club running.

And knowing what you know about the plot, it wouldn't surprise me if Larry's mysterious "employer" that wants the briefcase in Traffik actually turns out to be LaCroix or Bertram Tung sabotaging some plot of Ming-Xiao's, given the prominent involvement of the Tong.

Not too much in that game happened by sheer coincidence. Just because you assume that you're doing something for no apparent reason doesn't mean that there is no reason at all. That's the nature of the Jyhad.

And to paraphrase Bertram, "No one here can really be considered to be the good guys." I think you're applying too much human morality to a vampire.

Humanity is something a vampire has to remember that it had, not something it currently has.

[Tiberius]

Applying too much human morality? I wouldn't say so, not more than White Wolf intended for the P&P. Being a hardened gangster (because that's what the player ends up to be pretty much), that is accepting death contracts (Venus is not a damsel in distress, she is a criminal and she gives you a cut for helping her out with Boris) and being morally ready to kill people you never met to achieve a goal indicates 5 Humanity tops in the P&P (Jack who happens to lecture you on humanity at the beginning should have no more than 4 by the same rules, if you hear out what he says). That's all I am saying really. But this is a computer game and no need to beat the dead horse any longer.

[Kid SixXx]

Wow, how do you figure that Venus is a criminal?

Sure, she solicits you for what is pretty much a contracted hit, but other than that she's pretty much a club owner trying to run a business while being extorted by the Russian mafia.

I'd like to think that no reasonable person would go to organized crime for financial aid if they weren't desparate.

Jack also said later on when you see him at The Last Round that he thinks that when he rips out the jawbone of someone that threatens the Anarch movement and rams it into their eyesocket, he's building a better future so Jack is probably the last guy I'd ask for altruistic advice on humanity.

[Tiberius]

Wow, how do you figure that Venus is a criminal?

Sure, she solicits you for what is pretty much a contracted hit, but other than that she's pretty much a club owner trying to run a business while being extorted by the Russian mafia.

I'd like to think that no reasonable person would go to organized crime for financial aid if they weren't desparate.

Jack also said later on when you see him at The Last Round that he thinks that when he rips out the jawbone of someone that threatens the Anarch movement and rams it into their eyesocket, he's building a better future so Jack is probably the last guy I'd ask for altruistic advice on humanity.

Possible Spoilers:

Heh, Venus sure seems to be acquainted with some strange individuals like Fat Larry and Boris and from that fact alone I guess she is no angel, never mind the death contract on Boris. Also Fat Larry (the guy clearly is a criminal) does her a favour by sending you over which would mean that she is already entangled in a network of favours of people like Fat Larry. Furthermore you get half the club for doing Venus' death contract, you are not exactly a knight in shining armor.

Let me again give an example of why I think Humanity stays ridiculously high throughout; the trigger for going from Humanity 10 to 9 in the P&P is selfish thoughts . That means "oh I am thirsty, let me steal some blood from that guy over there"--> Humanity loss. Humanity 10 or 9 means you are a saint, I don't mean "Torquemada saint" I mean "the guy who doesn't hurt a bug saint". In game you can retain 10 unless you go out of your way to lose it killing random people in masquerade areas.

Also "Humanity" is not the vampiric version of it, that's exactly the point, it is the mortal version of it. The Sabbat for example despise the Camarilla for clinging on to mortal ethical codes and follow their own paths of morality, they don't have low Humanity, they have completely different moral codes which revolve around completely different things regarded as sins or good deeds.

[Kid SixXx]

Possible Spoilers:

Heh, Venus sure seems to be acquainted with some strange individuals like Fat Larry and Boris and from that fact alone I guess she is no angel, never mind the death contract on Boris. Also Fat Larry (the guy clearly is a criminal) does her a favour by sending you over which would mean that she is already entangled in a network of favours of people like Fat Larry. Furthermore you get half the club for doing Venus' death contract, you are not exactly a knight in shining armor.

Well, you never really do know the relationship between Larry and Venus. They could very well be friends and Larry could genuinely be concerned about Venus's situation. Larry obviously sends you because given his diet, he probably knows he's not the guy to take on Russian thugs and win.

The Traffik quest really does appear to be both an "audition" from Larry to see how well you handle yourself, as well as some link in the Jyhad. There aren't too many events in the game that occur as pure coincidence.

Also "Humanity" is not the vampiric version of it, that's exactly the point, it is the mortal version of it. The Sabbat for example despise the Camarilla for clinging on to mortal ethical codes and follow their own paths of morality, they don't have low Humanity, they have completely different moral codes which revolve around completely different things regarded as sins or good deeds.

Well, we both know that is just relativism and that the Sabbat still considers vampires to be a higher form of life than humans. Shouldn't really translate to Sabbat vampires having a high score in Humanity. The Code of Milan looks good on face value until you figure out that the "freedom of destiny" that the Sabbat cherishes so much is a "vampires only" sorta thing.

Since you like to use Jack as a paragon of how Humanity is supposed to work in the game, even he says in the intro that self-preservation is a vital part of keeping your Humanity intact. There is your reason why you can return fire against criminals without tossing your humanity score in the crapper.

I agree that mechanically there is no way that a vampire that does what the protagonist in the game has to do should ever fill up his Humanity meter, but it's easy enough to lose Humanity points in game without needlessly penalizing the character for incidental matters. What initiative would there be to do side quests in your interpretation if you will potentially lose Humanity points during every gunfight spawned by some underground business dealing?

You may as well just run around Santa Monica never feeding and not doing any quests at all.

[Tiberius]

Since you like to use Jack as a paragon of how Humanity is supposed to work in the game, even he says in the intro that self-preservation is a vital part of keeping your Humanity intact. There is your reason why you can return fire against criminals without tossing your humanity score in the crapper.

I agree that mechanically there is no way that a vampire that does what the protagonist in the game has to do should ever fill up his Humanity meter, but it's easy enough to lose Humanity points in game without needlessly penalizing the character for incidental matters. What initiative would there be to do side quests in your interpretation if you will potentially lose Humanity points during every gunfight spawned by some underground business dealing?

You may as well just run around Santa Monica never feeding and not doing any quests at all.

I am not using Jack as a paragon of Humanity, quite the opposite, it was more like an answer to what Wesp earlier said, that since Jack says it is self defence it is cool.

If one is aching about maintaining a high humanity (and saying high I mean levels between 7-9), one should go about hunting rats, drinking from Heather, who is willing to give up blood, use bloodpacks, sneak past guards etc. Well imo the fact that with what happens in game you can ever have more than 6 humanity always struck me as bizzare, but never mind, just a quirk of mine, its a just a computer game.

Btw, how exactly is it easy to lose humanity points in game, baring doing silly stuff like killing pedestrians etc? If you just do a couple of the initial quests and heal Heather you reach 10 Humanity; I have since managed to make it drop to about 6 or 5 by the end of game by following deliberately the evil path in all quests that had one, but that's about it; if you decide to keep it at 10, you can, with no risk of ever losing a point.

[Kid SixXx]

I am not using Jack as a paragon of Humanity, quite the opposite, it was more like an answer to what Wesp earlier said, that since Jack says it is self defence it is cool.

And I agree with Wesp. You're a vampire & not Jesus Christ, so turning the other cheek is a pretty suicidal thing to do if the Tong are bearing down on you with Mac-10's blazing.

Granted as you say, if you hadn't agreed to what is tantamount to a shady deal in the first place you wouldn't have put yourself into a predicament where you'd have to trade shots with criminals.

Then again, what reason would there be to do any quests in the game if you were afraid of your Humanity dropping like a stone in the course of getting some experience?

Game mechanics vs. philosophy debates are always a slippery slope.

I am not using Jack as a paragon of Btw, how exactly is it easy to lose humanity points in game, baring doing silly stuff like killing pedestrians etc? If you just do a couple of the initial quests and heal Heather you reach 10 Humanity; I have since managed to make it drop to about 6 or 5 by the end of game by following deliberately the evil path in all quests that had one, but that's about it; if you decide to keep it at 10, you can, with no risk of ever losing a point.

Spoilers:

I tend to find myself woefully short of money so I tend to do the quests that end up costing me a humanity point like conning the guy on the beach (which orginially didn't cost a Humanity point), setting up Tawny Sessions.

For fun, I usually get rid of the Hidden LA guy and Patty via sending them to Pisha. For some reason if someone just likes giving up experience points, you can foolishly give the necklace to Jeanette.

If you don't have enough Persuasion / Intimidate to get back into Vandal's good graces and want access to Blood Packs, then doing the quest to get another victim for the chair costs me two humanity points. And since you mentioned Heather, there's no rule that says you have to save Heather or do any of the other optional quests (getting morphine for Mercutio for example) that recovers humanity points as you lose them.

I've been down to as many as five humanity points while playing a Toreador, and six or so playing other vampires. If you set your mind to it, shedding Humanity points is pretty simple.

And yes, regaining Humanity points should be a lot harder than it is. I personally wouldn't have allowed the option to regain them through spending experience.

In retrospect, I want to apoligize. I obviously don't agree with the Humanity point issue, but I also just realized that in stating my point of view I've come dangerously close several times to accusing you of not playing the game properly.

For me to dictate to anyone how they're supposed to have fun with this game would be horribly short-sighted.

[Tiberius]

.

In retrospect, I want to apoligize. I obviously don't agree with the Humanity point issue, but I also just realized that in stating my point of view I've come dangerously close several times to accusing you of not playing the game properly.

For me to dictate to anyone how they're supposed to have fun with this game would be horribly short-sighted.

Heh, no need to apologize, all I am saying really is that the way I play my vampires they are far from saint and I would like that reflected on my character sheet, that's all.

There is always the manual solution to that, if I do something which does not meet the standards my Humanity rating I just start a street fight to get penalized. Not that I think that I ever do anything in quests that would merit a lower than 5 Humanity.

Btw, I might have been misunderstood, I never proposed making combat areas like the garage or the museum masquerade areas, where you lose 1 Humanity per kill, all I said was lose 1 Humanity total no matter how many you kill if you go for the frontal assault way. You disagree, no problem, I leave it at that.

[roller1234]

i think thats a good thing, because humanity concept is flawed. If i frenzy and do stupid deeds, ill reload. If ill have to reload often, i would be annoyed.

[Celacena]

this is a computer RPG

the OP is complaining about 'humanity' being too easily retained compared to PnP. Perhaps it is because the two are using somewhat different meanings? the game is not intended as an implementation of the PnP, but a stand-alone computer game. in the computer game, you start when you are embraced - at that point you only have known your human existence - that is 'humanity 10' a truly human experience. you then have to come to terms with being embraced.

this game is set in the first few weeks of being a vamp - finding out what your remaining 'life' will be like. you can become a blood-crazed maniac immediately, or you can carry on with your normal thought patterns gradually adjusting to the need for blood. some vamps take great delight in feeding, others regard it as a simple necessity. it is the same for the PC.

in addition, in order to survive, the PC has to discover their role in vamp society - they can try to be independent, or they can willingly conform, either way, they are obliged to carry out certain missions to please LaX. However, the game does not oblige the PC to do so, but not much would happen in the game, if the player decided to ignore those missions. they are not time-sensitive and the PC could, in game terms, live out a lifetime doing nothing. unlike other vamps, the PC does not suffer from blood-hunger just as a result of time passing - the PC needs to use powers to consume their blood-stock. so it is the players choice to engage in missions - and they cease to be a 'civilian' as a result.

there are very few occasions when the game requires that an 'innocent' is killed - and the humanity losses exist, but so do humanity gains. performing an unnecessary act of kindness makes the PC feel more 'human' and not giving in to the easy vamp way of solving problems can also emphasise the PCs humanity.

in this game, the scale is about retaining relative humanity compared to becoming a blood-beast, it is not about 'evil' compared to 'saintliness' IMO.