Alright, so I've got this problem with some players, and before I explain the problem, I'll present one piece of evidence that it's not me-
Player Group A- 4 Games I've run.
Player Group B- 2 games I've run.
Player group B I've never had problems with, we've always been focused, into gaming, and pretty serious about the adventures and stuff. I meet with them at college just about as often as I meet with Group A at my friends house. Group A however, I've always had problems with. Always.
Now, onto my problem with Group A.
The players are getting a bit out of control. One player insists on making each of his characters ungodly weird. He played a sorcerer with dementia, a pyromaniacal dragonmark rogue with a half demented personality, and now a hyperactive ADHD ridden Pixie Heavy Armor fighter also with a bit of a demented personality. This type of character is fine for a dungeon crawl, but I've never made a dungeon crawl game, I've always tried to have at least 65% of the game roleplaying, skill checks, investigation, etc etc. So in my current game, due to his nature, I started my game only a month ago and we're nearing the end because of his "A killing we will go" character. Another player has absolutely no motivation to play his character any way effectively, in fact 95% of the time the other three players are making decisions FOR him. A third person, I don't have much of a beef with but he makes these great detailed characters, and I'm not talking about stats. He makes these super detailed backgrounds that are just great, but when the game starts, and each session thereafter, his personality is just this apathetic monotone Ben Stein esque character. And finally, the last player, his characters are decent and stuff like that, but he's the most likely to get everybody off topic from gaming, and once we get off topic, we usually don't get back into gaming again for another half hour or so. Kinda ticks me off that we only get 3 hours of gaming done in a 10 hour session.
So, can anyone give me a suggestion of what to do? I mean, the best I have is to give them direct criticism, but even if I criticise myself at the same time, I already know they're gonna give me hell. So...I dunno what to do.
Question to Experienced DM's.
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Siberys
- Posts: 6207
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Question to Experienced DM's.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
Hi Siberys...funny I should be talking to you here outside the TQ forum but anyways I'll see if I have any pearls of wisdom for you (just in case you were wondering I have been DMing for around about 15 years on and off - from regular D&D days right through to now where I too have a group that meets once a week)
Now my first question to you is how much preparation do you do before each session? This can sometimes have an effect on the people that wonder off topic. If you have too much delay in storyline or interaction with the characters (e.g. scratching for encounters, or sorting through ideas) the off topic thing starts to happen. I have found that it is best to let most people "get it off their chest" early on when they arrive....then it is your job to maybe recap on what happened last week (set the scene). This hopefully will in turn make them switch their D&D hat back on because they will not want to feel left out.
Now for the people that like "Roll playing" more than the dice rolling and gaming asthetic of the game I would recommend introducing other subplots into the campaign where as there character gets to be the quest/party leader. This (in my experience) has forced the person who 95% of the time jeopardises all plot line to suddenly realise that he is actually given an opportunity to lead the group and this has proven to be a turing point for me as the DM. **One thing to make sure happens is that there is combat fairly early on where the "Roll playing" player is potentialy the target or the one that requires help from the rest of the team....this is usually the catalyst for realising that they need to work as a team.
The person that plays stand-offish but very detailed background characters keep asking him what he is going to do within the group. I have nicknamed these types of players "turtlers"...you have to be aware of them and get them involved otherwise they fade from existence and out of the gaming group.
All and all if you are still having difficulties get the players character stats e.g. Ability scores, AC, HP's, skill points and feats. This is so that you can see what each of the characters are good at and tailor make scenarios and events that forces them to make use of there skills etc. This basically making feel more attached to their character and hence probably putting a bit more thought into it.
Few other tips:
Make sure when your group is starting new characters that they role the scores in front of you (inc. hitpoints whenever they level up). This basically adds a greater sense of honesty to the game and will make it a lot easier for you down the track.
Encourage every player to state what action they are going to take. Even if they go off storyline or out into the left field always have something side encounters developed and ready to go. You can chose to make it so it eventually leads them back into the main story or keep it focused on individual character sub stories. But what ever you do have something organised as soon as you dive for the Monster Manual the off topic players will start wondering....you guessed it off topic.
Encourage everyone to own their own dice...nothing worse than swapping dice around and when it comes down to the basic guts of it if they are not willing to fork out a few pennies to buy a set of dice how can they be serious about showing up and playing their character each week...
Last but not least have fun. Make a campaign world, describe the cities in detail, make "bloodstained" maps of the region that they can hang on to, create history and enriched backgrounds to your npc's, cretae past events that devastated the landscape, make your own monster types.
But all and all have fun doing it. Most of the time I found that if I showed that I was really into it the other players 9 times out of 10 would get involved too...after all the DM is the story teller.
Now my first question to you is how much preparation do you do before each session? This can sometimes have an effect on the people that wonder off topic. If you have too much delay in storyline or interaction with the characters (e.g. scratching for encounters, or sorting through ideas) the off topic thing starts to happen. I have found that it is best to let most people "get it off their chest" early on when they arrive....then it is your job to maybe recap on what happened last week (set the scene). This hopefully will in turn make them switch their D&D hat back on because they will not want to feel left out.
Now for the people that like "Roll playing" more than the dice rolling and gaming asthetic of the game I would recommend introducing other subplots into the campaign where as there character gets to be the quest/party leader. This (in my experience) has forced the person who 95% of the time jeopardises all plot line to suddenly realise that he is actually given an opportunity to lead the group and this has proven to be a turing point for me as the DM. **One thing to make sure happens is that there is combat fairly early on where the "Roll playing" player is potentialy the target or the one that requires help from the rest of the team....this is usually the catalyst for realising that they need to work as a team.
The person that plays stand-offish but very detailed background characters keep asking him what he is going to do within the group. I have nicknamed these types of players "turtlers"...you have to be aware of them and get them involved otherwise they fade from existence and out of the gaming group.
All and all if you are still having difficulties get the players character stats e.g. Ability scores, AC, HP's, skill points and feats. This is so that you can see what each of the characters are good at and tailor make scenarios and events that forces them to make use of there skills etc. This basically making feel more attached to their character and hence probably putting a bit more thought into it.
Few other tips:
Make sure when your group is starting new characters that they role the scores in front of you (inc. hitpoints whenever they level up). This basically adds a greater sense of honesty to the game and will make it a lot easier for you down the track.
Encourage every player to state what action they are going to take. Even if they go off storyline or out into the left field always have something side encounters developed and ready to go. You can chose to make it so it eventually leads them back into the main story or keep it focused on individual character sub stories. But what ever you do have something organised as soon as you dive for the Monster Manual the off topic players will start wondering....you guessed it off topic.
Encourage everyone to own their own dice...nothing worse than swapping dice around and when it comes down to the basic guts of it if they are not willing to fork out a few pennies to buy a set of dice how can they be serious about showing up and playing their character each week...
Last but not least have fun. Make a campaign world, describe the cities in detail, make "bloodstained" maps of the region that they can hang on to, create history and enriched backgrounds to your npc's, cretae past events that devastated the landscape, make your own monster types.
But all and all have fun doing it. Most of the time I found that if I showed that I was really into it the other players 9 times out of 10 would get involved too...after all the DM is the story teller.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
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Siberys
- Posts: 6207
- Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:16 pm
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Before I respond, I'll use a minimum detailed name for things reference in my game. So, something like "Blackwinter assassins" or "Blighted lands" feel free to just assume the stereotype about it, as that's more or less what it is.
I even set up this simple tavern spot where the players could follow. The bar was divided up into separate rooms (meaning fancy bar), a blackwinter agent sat two rooms beyond where the players sat. The pixie insanity ADHD character flew into the room, hovered over the agent, and purposefully annoyed him, for no reason.
As for the other suggestions, I've been off and on doing those, but I'll see about focusing in on a couple. These guys are my friends but they're getting to be annoying as hell, so I'd rather not criticise them when they'll probably throw it right back in my face.
Plenty. To start the campaign, I had 3 months worth of notes (due to the campaign setting, I combined Arcana Evolved and Eberron for an apolcalyptic 12th level to 26th level campaign). I not only gave them leads (NPC: Bring me samples from the mournlands blighted land, NPC: Stay away from searching for the Blackwinter Assassins, Just investigate them, NPC: Investigate the spire erected in the mournlands), but I gave them ample time to do each task, but if they even decided to do the task, they did the bare minimum before deciding to bash somethings brain in.Now my first question to you is how much preparation do you do before each session?
Even though I had an NPC warn them not to investigate blackwinter assassins, they went after and came to a point where they would either fight or join them. Luckily, they decided to join them, but the only one who qualified was the "keep to himself yet with detailed character" guy. This proved no effect, as he was less involved than ever at that point.I would recommend introducing other subplots into the campaign where as there character gets to be the quest/party leader. This (in my experience) has forced the person who 95% of the time jeopardises all plot line to suddenly realise that he is actually given an opportunity to lead the group and this has proven to be a turing point for me as the DM.
I even set up this simple tavern spot where the players could follow. The bar was divided up into separate rooms (meaning fancy bar), a blackwinter agent sat two rooms beyond where the players sat. The pixie insanity ADHD character flew into the room, hovered over the agent, and purposefully annoyed him, for no reason.
As for the other suggestions, I've been off and on doing those, but I'll see about focusing in on a couple. These guys are my friends but they're getting to be annoying as hell, so I'd rather not criticise them when they'll probably throw it right back in my face.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
Yup Siberys, its a tricky thing DMing. I think eventually with time you will realise that some of your friends will just stay away from D&D in the end (which is not necessarily a bad thing if they jeopardise the campaign all the time).
I am quite fortunate now cos I have managed to break down my old group into people that really want to partake in the adventure and get engrossed into the action and story.
One other thing to make sure is apparent is that ultimately D&D is a dice game and as soon you introduce the risk element back into the game e.g. encounters that will leave half the party unconscious and even the chance of killing a character then they will learn that they will have to focus to enable for their character to survive.
Make then get surrounded or flanked or pn cushioned by those roof top archers. Make them think about their next move otherwise their character will die....pure and simple.
Sometimes you have to make the fear of them having their character die to put them in line. I know they are your frinds but pure and simple they must also understand that there has to be a risk element otherwise why even include battle when there is no fear of dying.
As DM you have certain liberties and I think as your friends they should understand this fact.
Just keep trying things and let me know how it goes.
I am quite fortunate now cos I have managed to break down my old group into people that really want to partake in the adventure and get engrossed into the action and story.
One other thing to make sure is apparent is that ultimately D&D is a dice game and as soon you introduce the risk element back into the game e.g. encounters that will leave half the party unconscious and even the chance of killing a character then they will learn that they will have to focus to enable for their character to survive.
Make then get surrounded or flanked or pn cushioned by those roof top archers. Make them think about their next move otherwise their character will die....pure and simple.
Sometimes you have to make the fear of them having their character die to put them in line. I know they are your frinds but pure and simple they must also understand that there has to be a risk element otherwise why even include battle when there is no fear of dying.
As DM you have certain liberties and I think as your friends they should understand this fact.
Just keep trying things and let me know how it goes.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
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Rob-hin
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It also can help if you make a point, ingame.
If they roll a demented character, make him lose his spellbook before a combat.
Suit the combat for the other character while he can only sit and watch.
Hey, have the fun bits, but also experience the downside mate!
If they roll a demented character, make him lose his spellbook before a combat.
Suit the combat for the other character while he can only sit and watch.
Hey, have the fun bits, but also experience the downside mate!
Guinness is good for you.
Gives you strength.
Gives you strength.
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Siberys
- Posts: 6207
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Actually, he's never played a character that relies on a specific item for his power. He's played a rogue and since it was a low level campaign his weapon never got beyond masterwork, a Warmain (Arcana Evolved: Weapon and Armor master heavy knight class) with levels in Evolved Spryte, and a sorcerer.Rob-hin wrote:It also can help if you make a point, ingame.
If they roll a demented character, make him lose his spellbook before a combat.
Suit the combat for the other character while he can only sit and watch.
Hey, have the fun bits, but also experience the downside mate!
Also, when I say demented, I don't mean actual Dementia. I just mean he always plays them purposefully super hyper and annoying.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
I kind of agree with Rob-hin here a bit. If this friend of yours is going to only be a disruption to your game all of the time then a) say it to his face that this time during this campaign there are rules and limitations as to what they can do with their characters...
...or pregenerate each of your players characters (excluding their attributes, skills etc). E.g give your friend a fighter character and advise him exactly what the character is about, the characters history, the characters alignment, the characters racial enemies if any etc. So therefore forcing your mate to play the character but in the way that you have already built in place for them to be able to play it....
...another idea that springs to mind is play the "alignment card". Basically state at the start of the game that everyones character has be compatible.
In other words if the players do not play their characters to a certain alignment (which you have assigned their character) then the consequences will be bad for them....I have had situations like this where players have gone off on another tangent and I have bluntly stated that if they continue down this bath a) the people in the surrounding city will hunt him down b) his own party will turn on him and nullify if not kill his character due to his eratic behaviour or c) everyone in the party ignores his behaviour and so do all the npc's in the game foprcing him to "play ball" with the rest of the party.
I have had to "accidentally" kill some annoying characters sometimes...basically if I know someone is being annoying in the group and pulling the enjoyment of the game down I take the "DM's fair encounter" limitation off of anything that encounters this character and all of a sudden he is found to have a very large "string of bad luck" so to speak....to teach a lesson there is nothing better than making the enemy focus their attention on this players time and time again....he'll realise after a while that playing an unconscious character that requires healing for over 50% of each session is not really that fun...
...or pregenerate each of your players characters (excluding their attributes, skills etc). E.g give your friend a fighter character and advise him exactly what the character is about, the characters history, the characters alignment, the characters racial enemies if any etc. So therefore forcing your mate to play the character but in the way that you have already built in place for them to be able to play it....
...another idea that springs to mind is play the "alignment card". Basically state at the start of the game that everyones character has be compatible.
In other words if the players do not play their characters to a certain alignment (which you have assigned their character) then the consequences will be bad for them....I have had situations like this where players have gone off on another tangent and I have bluntly stated that if they continue down this bath a) the people in the surrounding city will hunt him down b) his own party will turn on him and nullify if not kill his character due to his eratic behaviour or c) everyone in the party ignores his behaviour and so do all the npc's in the game foprcing him to "play ball" with the rest of the party.
I have had to "accidentally" kill some annoying characters sometimes...basically if I know someone is being annoying in the group and pulling the enjoyment of the game down I take the "DM's fair encounter" limitation off of anything that encounters this character and all of a sudden he is found to have a very large "string of bad luck" so to speak....to teach a lesson there is nothing better than making the enemy focus their attention on this players time and time again....he'll realise after a while that playing an unconscious character that requires healing for over 50% of each session is not really that fun...
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.