Ideal ability scores and feats for a (non-multi-class) paladin in OC and MotB?

[Galuf the Dwarf]

I think the title says it all. For intents of race, the paladin in question is an Aasimar, folks.

Question #1: The ability scores I usually go with are like this
16 Strength
10 Dexterity
16 Constitution
10 Intelligence
12 Wisdom
16 Charisma

I've seen FAQs on sites like GameFAQs.com that seem to suggest around the Strength score I have, but only 12 Con and 14 Wisdom and 18 Charisma. I understand the 14 Wisdom for spellcasting, but my previous experiences with this game have shown me that the 16 Con I've had so far seem to have kept my pally well alive before, and even then, he's been close to death at points. :speech:

Question #2: What ability score bonuses should I go with? Once again, GameFAQs comes into question, emphasizing Strength and Charisma. Sounds good to me, but I wonder how many (especially with the stat spread I gave) I should go for in each stat.

Question #3: Okay, now let's talk about paladins and feats. Power Attack sounds like it's good as a key towards epic feats like Epic Divine Might or such. What else besides that, though? Was wondering what other feats are worthwhile for a paladin in OC and MotB.

[themaelstorm]

Depends on how you'll use him I guess.
Every two points of charisma->better smite, more heal with LoH and better TU
I guess it could be more effective to use TU charges for divine feats and let more hit points compensate for a li'l loss of healing and saving throws.

So if it's powerplaying, I'd say Str+Con should be higher than charisma and wisdom; so your build seems fine. And with high str, you can use power attack easier.

For feats, Divine Feats are useful, that I know. Also you may want weapon-based stuff like weapon focus or monkey grip to go for greatsword and shield I guess.

You can get toughness and drop your con by two points and spend the points elsewhere to compensate.
If you like Divine Feats, you may want Extra Turning.

I haven't got MotB, so no comments for later levels. I am not really certain and not an expert in this, but I hope it will give you some clues

[Scottg]

A pure paladin should have high Strength and Constitution, everything else should be average. There are two exceptions to this:
1. is enhancing dexterity and intelligence for certain feats.
2. is a 14 in Wisdom needed to cast all spells when they become available.

Yes this hoses your Divine Grace savings throw bonus.. BUT you can always augment this with charisma enhancing items, spells, potions, etc. (..for those times when you think you will need it.)

The real reason is that as your character progresses - lower values in say wisdom, and dexterity directly effect your much weaker base values in will and reflex savings throws. So at 2nd level +3 or +4 to all your savings throws look great, but latter on.. not so great when factoring in the cost to your strength and constitution.

Additionally:

Charisma also *only* effects:

*Additional* Turn Undead per-day. Solution: sleep to recover them.

Lay on Hands modifier:

A few skill points in heal with a healing kit does a better job.

Smite Evil:

ONLY its attack bonus, NOT DAMAGE. With a high strength you are getting attack and damage ALL THE TIME.

Thats it for Charisma.

(..well, it also provides a boost to a few skills.)

As far as exception #1 above:

This depends quite a lot on how you want to play your Paladin, remember - here you are NOT getting the amount of feats like a Fighter, so you are FAR more limited on what you can do and when.

Starting off - because of the relative dearth of feats I'd seriously consider a Human. (..yes I see the Dwarf sig.)

2nd, forget feats for dual weapon fighting - its just not practical for a Paladin.

3rd, a Paladin wears heavy armor, Dexterity bonuses are limited to +1 for full plate.

4th, Because there are more important feats to "fill-in" - I'd forget about exotic weapons.

For exception #2 above - Wisdom has its limit to level 4 spells, so a 14 in Wisdom will suffice (..and improve your will savings throws).

This says to me:
High Strength and Constitution.
Dexterity of 12
Wisdom of 14
Intelligence of 10
Charisma of 10

Because your ability to hit and damage opponents is based on your strength - it is the attribute that should be elevated each time you have an opportunity.

As to Feats:

My first "stop" on the Feat list would be:
Power Attack,
Cleave,
Great Cleave.
(the Cleaves work really well against multiple opponents, UNLIKE whirlwind which has some delay (i.e. you can't spin about in a perpetual whirlwind).)

My next stop would be:
Weapon Focus,
Power Critical (in that weapon),
Improved Critical.

I'd also choose a weapon with a threat range that is at least 19-20, or preferably 18-20.

Additionally, IF I wanted to use a 2 handed weapon and a shield then add in Monkey Grip.

Thats about it.

Oh, if you want more feats then I'd take my first 2 character levels as a fighter.

[GawainBS]

That's not so mart, the above advice. It's even pointed out that CHA enhances your saving throws. Each and every one of them. So why boost several stats to gain an increase in one save, if you can increase ALL of them with one stat increase?
Besides, Additional Turn Attempts can be used for Divine Might & Divine Shield.
Something along 16, 10, 14, 10, 14, 16 is pretty solid for a Paladin, if he is an Aasimar.

[Fiberfar]

You'll get 7 ability points in MotB. I suggest starting with 15 in strength or charisma, instead of 16 if you aren't going to take ability boosting feats. At least it buggers the hell out of me when my characters have odd numbered stats at the end of the game.

[potatoe]

A pure paladin should have high Strength and Constitution, everything else should be average. There are two exceptions to this:
1. is enhancing dexterity and intelligence for certain feats.
2. is a 14 in Wisdom needed to cast all spells when they become available.

Yes this hoses your Divine Grace savings throw bonus.. BUT you can always augment this with charisma enhancing items, spells, potions, etc. (..for those times when you think you will need it.)

The real reason is that as your character progresses - lower values in say wisdom, and dexterity directly effect your much weaker base values in will and reflex savings throws. So at 2nd level +3 or +4 to all your savings throws look great, but latter on.. not so great when factoring in the cost to your strength and constitution.

Additionally:

Charisma also *only* effects:

*Additional* Turn Undead per-day. Solution: sleep to recover them.

Lay on Hands modifier:

A few skill points in heal with a healing kit does a better job.

Smite Evil:

ONLY its attack bonus, NOT DAMAGE. With a high strength you are getting attack and damage ALL THE TIME.

Thats it for Charisma.

(..well, it also provides a boost to a few skills.)

As far as exception #1 above:

This depends quite a lot on how you want to play your Paladin, remember - here you are NOT getting the amount of feats like a Fighter, so you are FAR more limited on what you can do and when.

Starting off - because of the relative dearth of feats I'd seriously consider a Human. (..yes I see the Dwarf sig.)

2nd, forget feats for dual weapon fighting - its just not practical for a Paladin.

3rd, a Paladin wears heavy armor, Dexterity bonuses are limited to +1 for full plate.

4th, Because there are more important feats to "fill-in" - I'd forget about exotic weapons.

For exception #2 above - Wisdom has its limit to level 4 spells, so a 14 in Wisdom will suffice (..and improve your will savings throws).

This says to me:
High Strength and Constitution.
Dexterity of 12
Wisdom of 14
Intelligence of 10
Charisma of 10

Because your ability to hit and damage opponents is based on your strength - it is the attribute that should be elevated each time you have an opportunity.

As to Feats:

My first "stop" on the Feat list would be:
Power Attack,
Cleave,
Great Cleave.
(the Cleaves work really well against multiple opponents, UNLIKE whirlwind which has some delay (i.e. you can't spin about in a perpetual whirlwind).)

My next stop would be:
Weapon Focus,
Power Critical (in that weapon),
Improved Critical.

I'd also choose a weapon with a threat range that is at least 19-20, or preferably 18-20.

Additionally, IF I wanted to use a 2 handed weapon and a shield then add in Monkey Grip.

Thats about it.

Oh, if you want more feats then I'd take my first 2 character levels as a fighter.

But why go for paladin then when you're just building an ordinary tank and don't care about the special abilities? Wouldn't it be better in that case to simply take a fighter and a few cleric levels?

Anyway, I'd personally go for high charisma. The higher, the better actually.

18 charisma after a few levels+divine might+divine shield+nymph cloak +6

+7AC for 7 rounds will make it very hard for opponents to hit. Found it very useful when playing warlock/blackguard.

+7dmg

+7 saving throws

if you take epic divine might

+14 dmg

Seems good enough for me.

[Fiberfar]

Anyway, I'd personally go for high charisma. The higher, the better actually.

Agreed. With the points you posted as well.
Personally I'd go with a higher Charisma.

Starting out with 14-16 strength, 12 wisdom (I never go with odd numbers unless it's for a spesific build) and 18 charisma.

[Scottg]

That's not so mart, the above advice. It's even pointed out that CHA enhances your saving throws. Each and every one of them. So why boost several stats to gain an increase in one save, if you can increase ALL of them with one stat increase?
Besides, Additional Turn Attempts can be used for Divine Might & Divine Shield.
Something along 16, 10, 14, 10, 14, 16 is pretty solid for a Paladin, if he is an Aasimar.

Hmm..

Look at the differences between 16 in Charisma vs. Higher Strength & Constitution:

Savings Throws:

Fortitude (constitution)
Reflex (dexterity)
Will (wisdom)

16 Charisma nets a +3 modifier to all 3 savings throws once the Paladin hits level 2.

A high Constitution implies at LEAST a 16 which equals at LEAST +3 to Fortitude.

A Dexterity of 12 equals a +1 to Reflex (which is 2 less than the 16 in Charisma).

A Wisdom of 14 equals a +2 to Will (which is only 1 less than the 16 in Charisma).

So the net negative is -2 to reflex and -1 to Will.

The upside is

1. more points to Constitution and Strength.
2. being able to cast all Paladin spells.
3. a "stackable" +1 to your AC with Dexterity.

Ah, but we are specifically looking at an Aasimar here, so it may be a bit different for this race, specifically:

Str = 16
Dex = 12
Con = 16
Int = 10
Wis = 14
Cha = 12

This particular build gives us a +1 for savings throws via divine grace, so now we have a net of:

Fortitude +1
Reflex -1
Will +1

In comparison to the Aasimar build you have proposed the only difference is Constitution vs. Charisma (assuming we spend the additional 2 points on Dexterity). The net effect for Fortitude savings throws between the two is -1. The net effect between the two for Reflex savings throws is -2. What you gain with the higher Constitution is an additional hit point at each level - points that are ***crucial*** to survival for a melee character (..with Feats its like having the Feat Toughness for free).

This would however change considerably with a different race, Both Humans and Dwarfs can make more effective Paladins (with the above basic information).

[Scottg]

But why go for paladin then when you're just building an ordinary tank and don't care about the special abilities?

THAT is an entirely different question.

..and one I happen to agree with.

(i.e. a Human Fighter 2/Paladin 3/Cleric 5/Divine Champion 10 can make for a VASTLY better "Paladin".. but that wasn't the point of this thread.)

Still, you do get (in comparison to a Fighter):

1. Turn Undead.
2. Smite Evil Damage modifier.
3. The ability to selectively increase your hit bonus with Smite Evil via Charisma modifiers.
4. Modest divine spells.
5. The ability to selectively increase your savings throws at more appropriate time (instead of always "on") via Charisma modifiers.
6. "Native" skills in Diplomacy, Heal, and Lore (..and those first two are important - particularly Diplomacy).
7. Immunity to Fear (and help with that for your allies).
8. Immunity to Disease.
9. Pure role-playing value.

What you give up is access to tower shield use and *11* extra combat feats, and native skill Taunt (when compare to a fighter).

[Scottg]

The funny thing here is the emphasis on Saves vs. base Charisma/Divine Grace.

How many people REALLY think that a +3 to your saves is a big deal in any of the savings throw categories?

The fact is that +3 is NOTHING.

In fact, +5 rarely registers.

Its only until about +8 that you start getting a feel for some improvement, and even then its mostly perceptible in your class's high save category.

The reason I know this is that I'm currently playing through just such a character. A very high Charisma Warlock - starting Charisma 19 (and always increasing it).

That character (with the Dark One's Own Luck), basically adds +5 fairly early in the game (2nd invocation selected). That +5 rarely is worth anything.. SOMETIMES with WEAK traps (..and the character's base dexterity is 18).

HOWEVER..

By the time I add 2 levels of Blackguard (with Dark Blessing) - things start to "click". Then the combined saving throw bonus is typically +12.:mischief: THAT is worthwhile.