Wiccan beauty queen rejected as pageant judge (no spam)

[fable]

This, from the Toronto Star:

...Stephanie Conover, who was crowned winner of the Miss Canada Plus Pageant last year, said she was recently invited to be a judge at the Miss Toronto Tourism pageant on Feb. 2. "I said I'd definitely be there," Conover told the Star yesterday.

"Then, last week, on Monday, they asked me for a biography. I told them everything I do, how I'm an entertainer and a singer and a dancer. I talked about my charity work and I said I also have hobbies, including songwriting, knitting, painting, yoga, reiki and tarot cards."

That's where things got sticky. "We just got her bio a week ago and we don't agree with it," said Karen Murray, Miss Toronto Tourism pageant director. "We want someone down to earth, not someone into the dark side of the occult. We need a judge who has an upright reputation and we would be proud to introduce to the audience. Our board of directors has eliminated her as a judge as tarot card reading and reiki are the occult and is not acceptable by God, Jews, Muslims or Christians. Tarot card reading is witchcraft and is used by witches, spiritists and mediums to consult the dark world." ...The Miss Toronto Tourism pageant was established in 1999 and is independent of the city of Toronto's tourism branch.

Conover said she was stunned by the letter."I was fuming. They said tarot cards are the occult and that I use them to commune with dark forces," which she insisted is not the case. "They're completely benign. I use them for healing, to give guidance. You can buy tarot cards at Chapters or the CNE." She also said reiki is a well-known Japanese healing system that allows people to transfer positive energy to a sick person. "It definitely goes against convention, sure, but anything that helps avoid use of prescription drugs is a bonus, I think."

Conover said she practises Wicca, which to some means she's a witch. But she said the Miss Toronto Tourism people didn't know that and that they based their rejection of her on tarot cards and reiki. "Some would call me a witch, yes. But we don't believe in the devil. There's no devil in Wicca. We believe whatever you send out, good or bad, comes back to you three times. Ninety per cent of those who practise witchcraft or Wicca do it for the betterment of themselves or others. It's a religion and we're trying to get it recognized by higher-ups in government."

Conover said she also promotes diversity and multiculturalism as her mother is black and her father is white. Murray insisted Conover is "trying to stir up trouble" by raising the issue in the press. "She's obviously a very vindictive person," she said. Murray said her group doesn't get government funding and has the right to decide who acts as a judge in their pageant.

Asked if her group is a religious one, Murray replied, "We adhere to God's principles. We're God-fearing. I wouldn't say we're religious."

A few points. First, she's not a witch; she's a Wiccan. Second, the idea that using the tarot is somehow "the dark side of the occult" is an example of laughable ignorance. (I wonder if Ronald Reagan was Darth Ron, what with having hired an astrologer to provide daily analysis of each upcoming day's events when he was US president?) Third, this would be extremely funny if ignorance and prejudice wasn't so widespread--and of course capable of far worse results in places where we ever-so-civilized people (sarcasm note!) would expect such things. This leaves me feeling fairly sour about both the sponsors of Miss Canada Plus Pageant and Ms. Conover's vocal pagan supporters, who no doubt have a hard time finding Tibet on a map, much less picketing Chinese embassies for genocide.

I wonder if Ms. Murray feels emboldened by Canada's relatively new Prime Minister, the evangelical Mr. Harper, who has stated that he wishes to bring "neo-cons" and "theo-cons" together, and is a member of a church whose pastor (Franklin Graham, Blly's Graham's still-more fundamentalist son) has declared all Islam is "evil"?

[Siberys]

"We fear god and thus obey his principles, but we're not that religious"

seems like an oxymoron no?

I can't say much about how bad this is to happen due to it being in canada. I'm used to American rules, where this could probably be considered infringing on free speech or something, but I do not know canada's laws enough to comment other than "crap happens."

[dragon wench]

I can't comment by anyone feeling emboldened by that ass of a Prime Minister we have, but anything is possible with these idjits
However, it is actually rather amusing right now because the religious right in Canada is pretty frustrated since their "Golden Boy" Harper can't stray as far into the lunatic fringe as they would like. Basically, because most Canadians lean somewhere around the mushy centre and dislike extremes. Hence, just because of political survival, there's a limit to the horrors Harpie can inflict.

That being said, I'm hoping we can get rid of him soon... Harper truly worries me...
Unfortunately, at their last convention the Liberal opposition chose the wrong man for the job and they are in some disarray. *sigh*

"We want someone down to earth, not someone into the dark side of the occult. We need a judge who has an upright reputation and we would be proud to introduce to the audience. Our board of directors has eliminated her as a judge as tarot card reading and reiki are the occult and is not acceptable by God, Jews, Muslims or Christians. Tarot card reading is witchcraft and is used by witches, spiritists and mediums to consult the dark world." ...The Miss Toronto Tourism pageant was established in 1999 and is independent of the city of Toronto's tourism branch.

Ehhh... yeah..
Putting aside, for a moment, the monotheist faiths she lists... I just love how these self-appointed, wannabee-fascists claim to have direct insights into the thoughts or wishes of "God."

Of course, it also needs to be said that beauty pageants are not exactly known for their endorsement of non-conventional views...
Still though.. I'm fairly certain a constitutional challenge would be quite valid in this case.

Ms. Murray also needs a new dictionary...she's confusing Wicca with Satanism..

[Lady Dragonfly]

Given the fact this gem was published by a yellowish lefty newspaper, I am surprised at the subtlety of criticism aimed at the pageant administration.
My amusement stems from the observation of passions displayed on either side of this pathetic Light Side vs. Dark Side conflict.

Dwelling in the shady "mushy centre" for a long time and loving it, my unallied self has no problem with people believing in God(s), Force, Magic or Whathaveye if these beliefs

1. help fulfill one's spiritual needs,
2. are not destructive either inwardly or outwardly and
3. do not infringe upon the rights of others, including the right to doubt and question.

Apparently, Ms. Conover has a right to fill her own spiritual void as she sees fit. On the other hand, Ms. Murray et al. have a right to staff their board according to their own set of prejudices. Perhaps they believe that one has to adhere to God's principles in order to judge a beauty circus. Indeed, only the God-fearing individuals should be permitted to evaluate poise and intellect of the leggy contestants.

I am relinquishing my right to call into question the "healing powers" of Tarot cards - I cannot do that seriously. As for Reiki, please allow me to quote Reiki.org:

...It is administered by "laying on hands" and is based on the idea that an unseen "life force energy" flows through us and is what causes us to be alive...
The word Reiki is made of two Japanese words - Rei which means "God's Wisdom or the Higher Power" and Ki which is "life force energy". So Reiki is actually "spiritually guided life force energy."

...An amazingly simple technique to learn, the ability to use Reiki is not taught in the usual sense, but is transferred to the student during a Reiki class. This ability is passed on during an "attunement" given by a Reiki master and allows the student to tap into an unlimited supply of "life force energy" to improve one's health and enhance the quality of life.

Its use is not dependent on one's intellectual capacity or spiritual development and therefore is available to everyone. It has been successfully taught to thousands of people of all ages and backgrounds.

While Reiki is spiritual in nature, it is not a religion. It has no dogma, and there is nothing you must believe in order to learn and use Reiki. In fact, Reiki is not dependent on belief at all and will work whether you believe in it or not. Because Reiki comes from God, many people find that using Reiki puts them more in touch with the experience of their religion rather than having only an intellectual concept of it.

So, Reiki comes from God, but you don’t have to believe this statement. All you have to believe is that there is “an unlimited supply of life force energy” everyone can “tap into” after a Reiki master attune you to the heavenly faucet for a modest fee.

And as you can see, you don't have to be smart to successfully practice Reiki. I suspect being smart is actually a contraindication. Considering that, I think Ms. Conover is fully qualified to be a part of the jury.

This leaves me feeling fairly sour about both the sponsors of Miss Canada Plus Pageant and Ms. Conover's vocal pagan supporters...

I share the sentiment.

@DW

Still though.. I'm fairly certain a constitutional challenge would be quite valid in this case.

That would be entertaining, to say the least. I suppose frivolous lawsuits are as popular in Canada as they are in the USA?

[Maharlika]

Hayayayayaaaayyyy...

...people fear what they do not know and do not understand.

[Siberys]

...people fear what they do not know and do not understand.

Is it fear or disdain? I mean, if I decide I'll never try cherry chocolate dr. pepper, it's not because I fear it, but rather I just think that's an awful combination.

Besides, fear is giving them too much credit, it's placing the blame on fear and not them, when it clearly is their problem.

[Maharlika]

Take in the context.

Is it fear or disdain? I mean, if I decide I'll never try cherry chocolate dr. pepper, it's not because I fear it, but rather I just think that's an awful combination.

Besides, fear is giving them too much credit, it's placing the blame on fear and not them, when it clearly is their problem.

It is the fear of the unknown. Your example of cherry chocolate dr. pepper is a non-sequitur. Religion is a different thing. Judging a person outright in terms of religious beliefs just because one uses tarot cards is for me, preposterous. Reiki too? Gadz. Judging a person based on his or her religious beliefs most especially when you know nothing of is even a whole different level.

Why equate tarot-using (and perhaps eventually to Wiccans) with the devil (just because they are witches)? Is being a witch or a warlock automatically a devil-worshiper? If I play tarot cards too, does that make me dabbling with the occult? What's their basis?

They fear that having a tarot-using person as a judge would taint their organization that they claim is God-fearing. For them IMHO, it is some sort of a conflict of interest.

True. It's their pageant. Their right. Their choice. That doesn't mean I agree with the way they want to run things.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Hmmm, no matter how you put it, this seems to be like discrimination to me. Given that Wicca isn't an established practice/religion like Christianity or Islam, I suppose some people just don't mind insulting and brushing aside those who practice Wicca.

[Lady Dragonfly]

Judging a person outright in terms of religious beliefs just because one uses tarot cards is for me, preposterous.
...
Why equate tarot-using (and perhaps eventually to Wiccans) with the devil (just because they are witches)? Is being a witch or a warlock automatically a devil-worshiper? If I play tarot cards too, does that make me dabbling with the occult? What's their basis?

For a Roman Catholic, this is a very interesting statement, Maharlika. Since when does Roman Catholic Church accept witchcraft and become lenient towards a polytheistic neo-pagan nature religion with spiritual roots in shamanism? According to Catholic Encyclopedia, "...in witchcraft, as commonly understood, there is involved the idea of a diabolical pact or at least an appeal to the intervention of the spirits of evil… In the face of Holy Scripture and the teaching of the Fathers and theologians the abstract possibility of a pact with the Devil and of a diabolical interference in human affairs can hardly be denied".

So, yes, I suppose being a witch or a warlock should automatically mean a devil-worshiper, to a devout Christian (or a devout Muslim, for that matter).
As a matter of fact, I read that to many conservative Christians being “non-Christian” equals “being a Satanist” and everything “Occult” (including fantasy RPG) is a part of Satanism. There is no surprise, here.
This belief is based on a biblical text which implies that the gods of other religions are really demons.
1 Corinthians 10:20-21 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."

Heh, I feel like a Bible scholar.
On the other hand, what's the difference between a prayer and a magical incantation?

You say judging outright is preposterous. Perhaps. But we are all biased, are we not? We all judge each other, mostly unfair, according to out own values, age, experience, education etc., even if only at the subconscious level. The difference is some of us are able to appear politically correct and virtuous at the right moment, and some are not. Some of us politely smile at perceived nonsense and some sneer. Some of us are curious and some simply don't care either way. That pertains to our attitude towards all cults, big and small alike.

As for Tarot cards and astrology, they do not even qualify as religious beliefs. I dare call them superstition. What say you?

They fear that having a tarot-using person as a judge would taint their organization that they claim is God-fearing. For them IMHO, it is some sort of a conflict of interest

Of course. You are probably right when you don't buy this "God-fearing" stuff - it is just an excuse and an awkward one too.
But this is their show, after all. If they don't want "psychic" Tarot cards readers and witches at their table, who can blame them? What if some of the contestants would later accuse the judges of bewitching the podium and file a lawsuit? Can't be too careful, no Sir.

Hm, another long post. Thanks for reading.

[Siberys]

It is the fear of the unknown. Your example of cherry chocolate dr. pepper is a non-sequitur.

The analogy wasn't meant to be taken literally, more or less relatively. But I can see what you mean, but I still believe there's a line between a fearful opinion and bigotry, and in this case, it's nowhere near that of fear.

99% of people would consider Tarot a hoax based on the luck of the draw and NOT a blasphemous act against god, and as for Reiki, well that's a bit different. It could be against the commandment about stealing (300 bucks for people to wave their hands over you and not touch you, ripoff I tells ya! )

I think maybe the reason why she was rejected isn't because of religion, but because of some underlying other reason and the religious thing was a cover that the dudes who rejected her fished for. I honestly haven't seen this kind of intolerance since social studies class and my textbook during black history month, but then again, this is Canada and I've lived in America all 19.5 years of my life, so it is possible I'm a bit ignorant in this situation.

[Xandax]

Well, while it does smack of hypocrisy and ignorance, then if it is a privately/independent organization, then I personally don't see additional problems with it, other then a laugh of yet another example of stupidity in the world.
It is up to them to decide whom they want to "represent them", and if they do not want somebody who've admitted to reading tarot cards, then - well *shrug*.

[QuenGalad]

Of course, they have the right to invite who they like to their party, and reject those they do not like. On the face of it, there seems to be no problem. But where does that lead? Have you noticed how, over the last few years, everyone's religion is being more an more important? Discussed broadly as a major point in any possible issue? Sure, if they want to have a beauty contest in a holy, god-worshipping atmosphere, they can have it, but why are they not openly declaring it? Why is it not called "the most beautifull nun, chosen by the assembly of vicars" or whatever? They want to have it completely conform to their beliefs without having the courage to admit it, and use such ugly means to get there. I fear a strange era of religious segregation is creeping up upon us when I hear of things like this.

[Xandax]

<snip> Have you noticed how, over the last few years, everyone's religion is being more an more important? Discussed broadly as a major point in any possible issue?<snip>

Not really, no.
People have been stupid and ignorant for many many many years, also when it comes to religion. It is not a new phenomenon.
It is "sad" indeed that there are such people in the world, but alas, I can't get excited in any way or form that somebody like this wasn't allowed to be a pageant judge. It is so inconsequential.
For that - there are far worse situations and consequence due to peoples ignorance that require attention and focus then something as trivial as this in my view.

[dragon wench]

Of course, they have the right to invite who they like to their party, and reject those they do not like. On the face of it, there seems to be no problem. But where does that lead? Have you noticed how, over the last few years, everyone's religion is being more an more important? Discussed broadly as a major point in any possible issue? Sure, if they want to have a beauty contest in a holy, god-worshipping atmosphere, they can have it, but why are they not openly declaring it? Why is it not called "the most beautifull nun, chosen by the assembly of vicars" or whatever? They want to have it completely conform to their beliefs without having the courage to admit it, and use such ugly means to get there. I fear a strange era of religious segregation is creeping up upon us when I hear of things like this.

Those are generally my sentiments as well. And the thing is, given that beauty pageants are not ostensibly tied to any religious body, it is rather odd they would, in particular, target Wicca. If anything, beauty pageants seem a pretty secular event.
Thus, yes, they do have the right to select who they want for the judging panel.. but let's do away with any false pretenses and openly state that those with less conventional spiritual practices need not apply.
I also have to wonder if this applies to lifestyle and/or orientation across the board? I wonder how Ms. Murray would respond if it was discovered that a potential judge was a lesbian?

@ Xandax,
Religion may not be as much of an issue over on your side of the pond, I can't say since I haven't been in Europe since the early 90s.. But, in North America it does appear to be an increasingly contentious area. My own feeling is that this is due to the fact that the religious right is slowly on the wane, they know it.. and it is a case of the dinosaur screaming its dying breath. Of course..how long that death will actually take is another matter entirely...

[Claudius]

"But we are all biased, are we not? We all judge each other, mostly unfair, according to out own values, age, experience, education etc., even if only at the subconscious level. The difference is some of us are able to appear politically correct and virtuous at the right moment, and some are not."

I think thats a good point. For me religious beliefs are all just thinking. They have as much reality as my belief that the sun rises in the sky (when perhaps it really blah blah scientific perspective).

I think whats important truth is that we all want to be happy. One thing to realize is that our actions make a difference. If we do foolish things we bring calamity down upon our heads and if we do wise things the reverse. Another realization is that efforts only to have peace for ourselves and neglect our fellow man are not as deeply satisfying to our hearts as possible. In fact we have been the recipient of love from or parents and countless people in our lives. We arrived with nothing to contribute. Just a mouth and a stomach. And yet people have gone through great hardship to cloth us fead us give us things that they wouldn't even keep for themselves. We arrived knowing only how to wave our arms and legs and cry and yet we were taught everything that we now currently know how to do. Because of our hearts we can feel gratitude at that and can wish to give back to our fellow person.

Now certainly this is a conflict the wiccan who wants to be part of the beauty pageant and the pageant who is concerned about their images and judges deviancy from traditional christianity as less desirable.

This is because we lose sight of what is really important and are instead dwelling on our attachments which were produced originaly in a moment of thought and actually have only as much substance as if I were to decide to put a smiley face

[Vicsun]

A few points. First, she's not a witch; she's a Wiccan.

I thought witch was an acceptable term for a practicer of Wicca. Have I been lead astray by your tongue-in-cheek use of that word, or is my memory faulty in its recollection of you describing yourself as a witch in the past?

[fable]

I thought witch was an acceptable term for a practicer of Wicca. Have I been lead astray by your tongue-in-cheek use of that word, or is my memory faulty in its recollection of you describing yourself as a witch?

Witch, yes. Wiccan, no. Witches are folk-based, line-intiatied magic practicioners with roots in shamanism. (Needless to say, I don't think of myself in that bloodless way, but I am.) Wicca is a modern pagan religion. Like you, I've also seen these two terms misused interchangeably, but there are only a few points in common. People who are one can certainly be the other, but that's not a requirement. Quite a few witches I know are not Wiccan. Many Wiccans I know claim to be witches, but some don't meet the definition. Others do. At least a few claim to be Christian Wiccans, but definitions can only be stretched so far before they snap into pieces.

[kyle]

"We believe whatever you send out, good or bad, comes back to you three times."

So what bad thing did she do that got her into this situation, and what are the next two bad things coming her way?

I'm fairly certain that an organization/institution cannot turn anyone down based on their religious views, even if it is private, unless there is an alternative organization offering the same service that will cater to the person, according to the Charter of Rights. The question of course is whether or not the law recogizes Wicca as a religion; no idea on that one. It's also a question of discrimination versus prejudice - discrimination is acceptable, we should spend more time helping the poor than the rich, prejudice is not acceptable. Sounds like the pageant's view is based on prejudice - predefined views labelling someone or something as evil.

[Lady Dragonfly]

It's also a question of discrimination versus prejudice - discrimination is acceptable, we should spend more time helping the poor than the rich, prejudice is not acceptable. Sounds like the pageant's view is based on prejudice - predefined views labelling someone or something as evil.

I think prejudice is acceptable and discrimination is not. You cannot legislate what I should think. You can, however, legislate that a person should not be discriminated against based on their race, gender, religion etc. Of course, you have to prove that such act of discrimination took place. For example, a company can fire any employee without any explanations. Period.

Thus, yes, they do have the right to select who they want for the judging panel.. but let's do away with any false pretenses and openly state that those with less conventional spiritual practices need not apply.

After the pageant administration learned about Tarot cards and Reiki, they withdrew their invitation. Whatever the true reason behind the move was, if other than stated, we can only guess. I already presented at least one of the possible reasons.

I am not sure what you call false pretenses. They referred to the "spiritual practices" of Tarot cards "healing" and Reiki "force-tapping" as the "dark side of Occult". False or not, this is their legitimate official stance, though I think "Dark side" label is overly dramatic for the silly pastime. They gave the half-witted chick more credit that she deserved.

Had Ms. Conover not started fuming with indignation and sharing her experience with yellow press, nobody would have known squat about the incident. The good news is Ms. Conover has received a lot of publicity, thanks to her plight.

I also have to wonder if this applies to lifestyle and/or orientation across the board? I wonder how Ms. Murray would respond if it was discovered that a potential judge was a lesbian?

... and how Ms. Murray would respond if it was discovered that a potential judge was black, orange or anything in between? Or that a potential judge was secretly growing cucumbers on her belly?
Let's abandon all false pretenses and openly state that we are entering the Logical Fallacy Domain, once again.

@QuenGalad

Have you noticed how, over the last few years, everyone's religion is being more an more important? Discussed broadly as a major point in any possible issue?

I have not. Open discussion of controversial issues is a sign of democracy, imo. It can become heated, sometimes.
I don't see anything wrong with such discussions. Do you?
I’d rather say there is a problem with some people avoiding open discussions at all cost and gravitating towards a comfort zone – e.g. a group of like-minded individuals brooding over "issues" and “evils” to their hearts' content, unopposed.

I fear a strange era of religious segregation is creeping up upon us when I hear of things like this.

Fear not. You live in a country that is striving to rediscover its lost identity. Catholicism is a part of it, is it not? You witness a conservative, nationalistic reaction to the long communist era. The pendulum swings back and forth. It is swinging back at present. I hope the Inquisition is not burning heretics at stake, at least?
It would be helpful if you could define "religious segregation", its desirable alternative as you envision it, and why you find it strange that Catholics, Lutherans, Druids and Satanists do not joyfully mix together.

[dragon wench]

I don't have time to reply at the moment, but here is another story for further detail, this one from the notoriously lefty and heretical CBC:
Beauty pageant dumps tarot card reading judge

Of note here:

"We hope that Stephanie Conover will turn from these belief systems and will repent from her practice of them."

Booth said the pageant feared Conover would consult tarot cards to pick a winner.

"We want to be in line with God's word when it comes to this type of activity and this isn't anywhere near God's word," he said.

Booth claims the pageant doesn't have a religious slant but has every right to reject anyone for any reason.

Uhm.... yeah... no religious slant my arse...