Remaining a Ranger or going arcane ?
Remaining a Ranger or going arcane ?
I created a wood elf ranger (he's now level 11) , and , as I played the first time as a druid , i don't know is it worthy to level up Wiz/Bard/Sorc to get Arcane archer. Is that worthy , or should I better stay a Ranger (remember epic levels).
Remain a Ranger. The epic level archery (or 2 weapon fighting style) feats are virtually mandatory and difficult to achieve without punative Dexterity requirements.
In your case its "One Shot" which requires a base level Dexterity of *27*.. UNLESS you are an Epic Ranger (who gets it at level 21).
Now after level 21, feel free to hit one level of sorcerer/wizard and continue on with 8 levels in Arcane Archer.
You will need however:
an 11 in Charisma OR an 11 in Intelligence for your single level as a Sorcerer or Wizard respectivly.
and,
Though you already have the Ranger Specific Feat of Point Blank Shot, I *think* you might well need to have the "original" Point Blank Shot for your Arcane Archer class.
(..of course you already have the pre-requisites of weapon focus in short or long bows, and the elven race requirement as well as the +6 BAB.)
What you will give up with this progression is some additional attack bonus to favored enemies, -1 to your BAB (overall from purely a BAB perspective), and some additonal feats - none of which are particularly noteworthy for an archer in general.
The Hit dice and BAB increase is the same for the Ranger and AA.
While you'll loose 1 BAB for that Sorcerer or Wizard class, you will ultimatly gain +4 BAB via the AA class (..net +3).
You will also get "imbue arrow", "seeker arrow", and "hail of arrows" under your 8 levels of AA class progression.
"Imbue arrow" is nice.
"Seeker arrow" is worthless (in comparison to "One Shot").
and,
"Hail of arrows" which could be good against enemies where you can critical a lot of enemies. (..rather like "whirlwinds" usefullness for melee characters, particularly Weponmasters.)
Finally, that one level of Wizard or Sorcerer can provide you with access to the spell "True Strike" which you may find worthwhile against some opponents with very high AC levels (..and is particularly useful with "One Shot").
In your case its "One Shot" which requires a base level Dexterity of *27*.. UNLESS you are an Epic Ranger (who gets it at level 21).
Now after level 21, feel free to hit one level of sorcerer/wizard and continue on with 8 levels in Arcane Archer.
You will need however:
an 11 in Charisma OR an 11 in Intelligence for your single level as a Sorcerer or Wizard respectivly.
and,
Though you already have the Ranger Specific Feat of Point Blank Shot, I *think* you might well need to have the "original" Point Blank Shot for your Arcane Archer class.
(..of course you already have the pre-requisites of weapon focus in short or long bows, and the elven race requirement as well as the +6 BAB.)
What you will give up with this progression is some additional attack bonus to favored enemies, -1 to your BAB (overall from purely a BAB perspective), and some additonal feats - none of which are particularly noteworthy for an archer in general.
The Hit dice and BAB increase is the same for the Ranger and AA.
While you'll loose 1 BAB for that Sorcerer or Wizard class, you will ultimatly gain +4 BAB via the AA class (..net +3).
You will also get "imbue arrow", "seeker arrow", and "hail of arrows" under your 8 levels of AA class progression.
"Imbue arrow" is nice.
"Seeker arrow" is worthless (in comparison to "One Shot").
and,
"Hail of arrows" which could be good against enemies where you can critical a lot of enemies. (..rather like "whirlwinds" usefullness for melee characters, particularly Weponmasters.)
Finally, that one level of Wizard or Sorcerer can provide you with access to the spell "True Strike" which you may find worthwhile against some opponents with very high AC levels (..and is particularly useful with "One Shot").
Maybe* but,Dumblor wrote:So in conclusion I should hit AA after I reach 21 lvl , because its's worth it. Right ?
Lvl. 22 = Sorcerer or Wizard.
Lvl. 23-30 = AA. (oops, only 7 levels = no "hail of arrows", but you'll still get your +4 attack bonus and imbue arrow.).
*After looking over the Ranger at epic levels again *IF* your enemy is in one of your favored enemy groups, and *IF* you don't care about imbue arrow - then stick with the Ranger.
The really nice thing about the Ranger at epic levels is that "favored enemy" and the *3* additional feats which you could spend on other things like AC increases or perhaps elemental damage resistance, etc..
Really, its up to you - neither way will be "wrong". Frankly the worst part about an epic ranged character is that in MOTB you get hosed on bows and enchanting bows.
The endless supply of +4 arrows is cool but ranger gets more favored enemies and epic bonus feats.
So its pluses and minuses.
So its pluses and minuses.
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its interesting..Claudius wrote:The endless supply of +4 arrows is cool but ranger gets more favored enemies and epic bonus feats.
So its pluses and minuses.
I went back and tested the characters.
1st: It does work out to be 21 in Ranger, 1 Wizard/Sorcerer, 8 in AA.. so you do get "Hail of arrows" (..yeah, my basic math sucks).
2nd: Hail of arrows WITH rapid shot gives you 2 attacks per opponent, BUT its a ranged touch attack AND the *2nd* attack doesn't seem to have any damage bonus from either the AA or the Ranger favored enemy and it doesn't seem to critical either.. BUT that 2nd attack does have strength modifier and *actual* magic arrow damage modifiers.
3rd: There is no "endless supply of +4 arrows at level 7 AA". Instead it works like this:
A. you get your + attack added on to your BAB regardless of any situation with a bow. Any time you equip a bow you get that additional to-hit modifier. Functionally this means that regular arrows OR magic arrows will have that + attack.
B. you ONLY get a *damage* modifier with plain old normal arrows. No + arrows nor elemental damage arrows will have an additional + damage added because of your levels of AA. (..and note that it didn't *show* on my character sheet, but it did appear to being doing that extra damage in-game with normal arrows.)
4th: Imbue Arrow is STILL worth while seemingly regardless of most opponents and their level (..but see the conclusion below).
5th: "One Shot" is functionally cool, BUT its fairly worthless in comparison to Many Shot because of its 60 Second cool-down period UNLESS you have hide in plain site (in ALL settings). With Hide in plain sight AND a *VERY* high hide and move silently skill level you basically can basically become a very good ranged assassin.
6th: Your Favored enemy is really all about adding damage, NOT a bonus to-hit. Moreover you can add to that damage modifier via feats improved favored enemy (which gives you an additional +3 to for an individual favored enemy). Favored enemy seems to enhance your criticals quite a bit, so it to works well with "One Shot".
..
After playing with both my opinion is that an AA provides a marginally superior to-hit, but a fair bit less damage when compared to a Ranger against a favored enemy.
............................................................
Final opinion: Stick with a Ranger and forget the AA.. OR,
Try one of the builds I'll mention next..
Ranger with one level of Shadow Dancer.
With any Ranger (in addition to of course having Undead as a favored enemy), make sure that you spend one feat on Improved Favored Enemy Undead. Additionally its best have Dragon as one of the other favored enemies (simply because they have so many hit points).
The level of Shadow Dancer obviously nets you that Hide in Plain Sight feat.
The net "price" here are two feats: Dodge and Mobility, one extra favored enemy and + 1 additional damage to your other favored enemies, and I *think* a -1 to your BAB overall.
...
Rogue with one level of Shadow Dancer. Concentrating on developing One Shot as well as Epic Precision and Epic Dodge. The only race I'd recommend for this is a Drow with a starting Dexterity of 20 and continuing to level up in this attribute only. Of course One Shot won't be available until about level 27, but Epic Precision *usually* makes up for this. (..note that on undead with epic precision I had to not only be hiding to make a sneak attack, but also had to be behind the enemy - and it was somehow worthless against Demilitches.)
Of course this build is purely for assassin-like ranged attacks.
My next recommendation will be my favorite..
With any Ranger (in addition to of course having Undead as a favored enemy), make sure that you spend one feat on Improved Favored Enemy Undead. Additionally its best have Dragon as one of the other favored enemies (simply because they have so many hit points).
The level of Shadow Dancer obviously nets you that Hide in Plain Sight feat.
The net "price" here are two feats: Dodge and Mobility, one extra favored enemy and + 1 additional damage to your other favored enemies, and I *think* a -1 to your BAB overall.
...
Rogue with one level of Shadow Dancer. Concentrating on developing One Shot as well as Epic Precision and Epic Dodge. The only race I'd recommend for this is a Drow with a starting Dexterity of 20 and continuing to level up in this attribute only. Of course One Shot won't be available until about level 27, but Epic Precision *usually* makes up for this. (..note that on undead with epic precision I had to not only be hiding to make a sneak attack, but also had to be behind the enemy - and it was somehow worthless against Demilitches.)
Of course this build is purely for assassin-like ranged attacks.
My next recommendation will be my favorite..
..and now my favorite Archer build:
Unlike the others which rely on shoot-n'-hide (in particularly tough spots), this is a straight-up archery killer who has massive defensives and just enough offensive capability to kill *anything*. Perhaps most importantly, its powerful at any level (unlike everything else).
Race: Drow
Str:16, Dex:17, Con:14, Int:10, Wis:12, Chr:10.
Constitution at all level-ups (4-20) until level 24 where you "pick-up" your final additional point in Dexterity, and then back again to Constitution at level 28.
Level
1 : Fighter - Intimidate 3. Always keep 5 points in reserve for level 13.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Luck of Heroes.
2 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Rapid Shot.
3 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Weapon Focus Longbow.
4 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Weapon Specialization Longbow.
5 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: None.
6 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feats: Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot.
7: Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: None.
8 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Greater Weapon Focus Longbow.
9 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Cold Resistance 5.
10: Fighter - Intimidate 1, Taunt 1.
Feat: Improved Critical Longbow.
11: Fighter - Intimidate 1, Taunt 1.
Feat: None.
12: Fighter - Intimidate 1, Taunt 1.
Feats: Greater Weapon Specialization Longbow, Electrical Resistance 5.
13: Sorcerer - 1 Bluff, 1 Concentration.
Feat: None.
14: Dragon Disciple - 1 Diplomacy, 6 in Spot OR Listen. Its typically more common to be blinded then deafened, so you are probably better off with Listen.
Feat: None.
15: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: Acid Resistance 5.
16: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
17: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
18: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: Sonic Resistance 5.
19: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
20: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
21: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: Epic Weapon Focus Longbow.
22: Dragon Disciple - 3 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
23: Dragon Disciple - 3 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: Epic Weapon Specialization Longbow.
24: Fighter - Intimidate 3.
Feat: None.
25: Fighter - Intimidate 3.
Feats: Epic Damage Resistance 3-, Epic Damage Resistance 6-.
26: Fighter - Intimidate 3.
Feat: None.
27: Fighter - Intimidate 2, Taunt 1.
Feats: Epic Damage Resistance 9-, Epic Energy Resistance Cold 10.
28: Fighter - Taunt 3.
29: Ranger - Listen (all remaining points).
Feats: Favored Enemy UNDEAD, Improved Favored Enemy Undead.
30: Fighter - Taunt 3.
Feat: Power Critical Longbow.
Note that Power Critical Longbow is at the end of your feats.. IF you want to you can always move it up as soon as Character level 9 (..instead of Cold Resistance).
Moreover you do not have to choose all (or even any) of the elemental resistances, and could instead favor some other combat related feats. However I find that without such resistance that you can have problems defending this character - or any character for that matter (..but of course there are a few items that can provide it).
Ok, why this specific build?
Number 1: Damage.
Damage is EXTREMELY important. First of all you want to kill your opponents quickly. Second, you want to "get them" before they can "get you". This poses something of a problem for characters in balancing Offense vs. Defense, because the most offensive character is often a character with lesser (or even inadequate) defensive capabilities. Third, you want to overcome damage resistance.
ONLY A pure epic Ranger can do *more* damage than this build, and then only with respect to a Favored Enemy AND with the epic feat Bane of Enemies (..and of course Improved Favored Enemy can add to that IF its against that particular enemy).
The game and the current build has a flaw with respect to damage:
I've found that "Mighty" on bows (or the Compound + rating), does not seem to limit your strength damage modifier. This means that high Strength characters, while not having the greatest hit capability, can fully apply their Strength bonus. This helps the "damage equation" greatly, and so a high Strength character is enviable as an Archer.
The build proposed here starts fairly strong (16 with a +3 damage modifier), and ends-up quite strong at character level 23 with a Strength of 24 (totaling +7 in damage modifier). Moreover it does this without compromising any other aspect of the character's attributes (..as any other NON-Dragon Disciple is likely to do). This means that your saves won't be "gutted", and in this case the character not only has a high Strength, but also a high Constitution.
Then there are the additional damage modifiers:
Weapon Specialization, Greater, and finally Epic - +2 for each against ANY opponent. More importantly you'll get that initial +2 at character level 4. At character level 12 you get to add another +2. Thats pretty early for any character to have that much additional damage in their attack.
You'll also note that at the end I "tacked" on one level of Ranger at a time when the character experienced an additional feat so I could take the feat Improved Favored Enemy (..a total of +4 stacked damage to Undead per hit). This is for the one "weak spot" in the character's overall build - specifically damage against a Demilich (..but of course it also "pumps up" the damage against all Undead). Its worth it and it really doesn't apply anymore experience point penalty than what that one level of Sorcerer does at level 13.. SO, if you wanted to you *could* insert that one level of Ranger at any time after the Sorcerer when you also had an extra feat. For this build there is no "down-side" to it, and only "up-side".
Number 2: Defense.
Unless a Ranger is in an "outside" setting, its ability to hide is lessened, and as a result it greatest Defensive asset "Hide", is stunted. Remember a Ranger needs to have light or no armor to use its weapon skill set, and as a result that doesn't provide the Ranger with much AC. Furthermore, while the Ranger does have a High BAB, it does NOT have a high hit-point modifier. Because of this the Ranger isn't terribly well-endowed with hit points for any particular level. NOR is it likely that the Ranger is being built with a high Constitution (again, because the damage bonus via Strength is so worthwhile). Practically speaking this means a few hits from stronger opponents and your Ranger is DEAD. (..a classic example is 2 or more Deathknights - opponents that never seem to be in an outdoor setting. A few rounds with them and its all over.)
Conversely this build has it *ALL* (except for "Hide").
Very high hit-point levels at any point in the game (..topping out at 492 at level 30).
Pure physical damage resistance of 9 at epic levels.
Ability to wear ANY armor at all times.
High AC bonuses.
Immunity to Fire.
Resistance to 10 Cold natively, and 5 for all other elemental damage types.
Number 3: Archer Feats and "When".
A Ranger doesn't get Improved Rapid Shot until class level 11, whereas this build gets it at the same time as Many Shot - at level 6. That is a LOT sooner and can really help with actually hitting with that 2nd shot at early character levels.
........
Final notes:
Why the Drow?
That spell resistance is *critical* IMO. Moreover they have better initial attribute structuring than any other race. While it may seem odd to have a high Constitution Drow, it works out rather well for this build without any serious deficiencies. Note that in the original OC you can get to almost level 20 with a Drow, and in MOTB you can easily get to level 30 regardless if you start at level 19 OR level 16. Finally, because this build is so strong - the Drow's "-2 character levels" at the start don't seem to really be noticed. Again, its a strong character at ANY level.
What about your 1 level as a Sorcerer?
Spells I choose are True Strike, and Identify. Both have obvious though infrequent uses. (Other spells like Mage Armor are typically useless because the character will no doubt be using enchanted armor, AND the spell Shield simply doesn't last long enough.) I'll usually grab the beetle as a familiar (which is basically like having the feat "Toughness" for free).
Whats up with the single skill point skills?
I do that because sometimes it *appears* that one "native" point in an attribute seems to work better than *just* using a wearable modifier for that skill. Could be "all in my head" though.
Unlike the others which rely on shoot-n'-hide (in particularly tough spots), this is a straight-up archery killer who has massive defensives and just enough offensive capability to kill *anything*. Perhaps most importantly, its powerful at any level (unlike everything else).
Race: Drow
Str:16, Dex:17, Con:14, Int:10, Wis:12, Chr:10.
Constitution at all level-ups (4-20) until level 24 where you "pick-up" your final additional point in Dexterity, and then back again to Constitution at level 28.
Level
1 : Fighter - Intimidate 3. Always keep 5 points in reserve for level 13.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Luck of Heroes.
2 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Rapid Shot.
3 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Weapon Focus Longbow.
4 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Weapon Specialization Longbow.
5 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: None.
6 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feats: Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot.
7: Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: None.
8 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Greater Weapon Focus Longbow.
9 : Fighter - Intimidate 1, Lore 1.
Feat: Cold Resistance 5.
10: Fighter - Intimidate 1, Taunt 1.
Feat: Improved Critical Longbow.
11: Fighter - Intimidate 1, Taunt 1.
Feat: None.
12: Fighter - Intimidate 1, Taunt 1.
Feats: Greater Weapon Specialization Longbow, Electrical Resistance 5.
13: Sorcerer - 1 Bluff, 1 Concentration.
Feat: None.
14: Dragon Disciple - 1 Diplomacy, 6 in Spot OR Listen. Its typically more common to be blinded then deafened, so you are probably better off with Listen.
Feat: None.
15: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: Acid Resistance 5.
16: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
17: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
18: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: Sonic Resistance 5.
19: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
20: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
21: Dragon Disciple - 2 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: Epic Weapon Focus Longbow.
22: Dragon Disciple - 3 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: None.
23: Dragon Disciple - 3 in Spot OR Listen.
Feat: Epic Weapon Specialization Longbow.
24: Fighter - Intimidate 3.
Feat: None.
25: Fighter - Intimidate 3.
Feats: Epic Damage Resistance 3-, Epic Damage Resistance 6-.
26: Fighter - Intimidate 3.
Feat: None.
27: Fighter - Intimidate 2, Taunt 1.
Feats: Epic Damage Resistance 9-, Epic Energy Resistance Cold 10.
28: Fighter - Taunt 3.
29: Ranger - Listen (all remaining points).
Feats: Favored Enemy UNDEAD, Improved Favored Enemy Undead.
30: Fighter - Taunt 3.
Feat: Power Critical Longbow.
Note that Power Critical Longbow is at the end of your feats.. IF you want to you can always move it up as soon as Character level 9 (..instead of Cold Resistance).
Moreover you do not have to choose all (or even any) of the elemental resistances, and could instead favor some other combat related feats. However I find that without such resistance that you can have problems defending this character - or any character for that matter (..but of course there are a few items that can provide it).
Ok, why this specific build?
Number 1: Damage.
Damage is EXTREMELY important. First of all you want to kill your opponents quickly. Second, you want to "get them" before they can "get you". This poses something of a problem for characters in balancing Offense vs. Defense, because the most offensive character is often a character with lesser (or even inadequate) defensive capabilities. Third, you want to overcome damage resistance.
ONLY A pure epic Ranger can do *more* damage than this build, and then only with respect to a Favored Enemy AND with the epic feat Bane of Enemies (..and of course Improved Favored Enemy can add to that IF its against that particular enemy).
The game and the current build has a flaw with respect to damage:
I've found that "Mighty" on bows (or the Compound + rating), does not seem to limit your strength damage modifier. This means that high Strength characters, while not having the greatest hit capability, can fully apply their Strength bonus. This helps the "damage equation" greatly, and so a high Strength character is enviable as an Archer.
The build proposed here starts fairly strong (16 with a +3 damage modifier), and ends-up quite strong at character level 23 with a Strength of 24 (totaling +7 in damage modifier). Moreover it does this without compromising any other aspect of the character's attributes (..as any other NON-Dragon Disciple is likely to do). This means that your saves won't be "gutted", and in this case the character not only has a high Strength, but also a high Constitution.
Then there are the additional damage modifiers:
Weapon Specialization, Greater, and finally Epic - +2 for each against ANY opponent. More importantly you'll get that initial +2 at character level 4. At character level 12 you get to add another +2. Thats pretty early for any character to have that much additional damage in their attack.
You'll also note that at the end I "tacked" on one level of Ranger at a time when the character experienced an additional feat so I could take the feat Improved Favored Enemy (..a total of +4 stacked damage to Undead per hit). This is for the one "weak spot" in the character's overall build - specifically damage against a Demilich (..but of course it also "pumps up" the damage against all Undead). Its worth it and it really doesn't apply anymore experience point penalty than what that one level of Sorcerer does at level 13.. SO, if you wanted to you *could* insert that one level of Ranger at any time after the Sorcerer when you also had an extra feat. For this build there is no "down-side" to it, and only "up-side".
Number 2: Defense.
Unless a Ranger is in an "outside" setting, its ability to hide is lessened, and as a result it greatest Defensive asset "Hide", is stunted. Remember a Ranger needs to have light or no armor to use its weapon skill set, and as a result that doesn't provide the Ranger with much AC. Furthermore, while the Ranger does have a High BAB, it does NOT have a high hit-point modifier. Because of this the Ranger isn't terribly well-endowed with hit points for any particular level. NOR is it likely that the Ranger is being built with a high Constitution (again, because the damage bonus via Strength is so worthwhile). Practically speaking this means a few hits from stronger opponents and your Ranger is DEAD. (..a classic example is 2 or more Deathknights - opponents that never seem to be in an outdoor setting. A few rounds with them and its all over.)
Conversely this build has it *ALL* (except for "Hide").
Very high hit-point levels at any point in the game (..topping out at 492 at level 30).
Pure physical damage resistance of 9 at epic levels.
Ability to wear ANY armor at all times.
High AC bonuses.
Immunity to Fire.
Resistance to 10 Cold natively, and 5 for all other elemental damage types.
Number 3: Archer Feats and "When".
A Ranger doesn't get Improved Rapid Shot until class level 11, whereas this build gets it at the same time as Many Shot - at level 6. That is a LOT sooner and can really help with actually hitting with that 2nd shot at early character levels.
........
Final notes:
Why the Drow?
That spell resistance is *critical* IMO. Moreover they have better initial attribute structuring than any other race. While it may seem odd to have a high Constitution Drow, it works out rather well for this build without any serious deficiencies. Note that in the original OC you can get to almost level 20 with a Drow, and in MOTB you can easily get to level 30 regardless if you start at level 19 OR level 16. Finally, because this build is so strong - the Drow's "-2 character levels" at the start don't seem to really be noticed. Again, its a strong character at ANY level.
What about your 1 level as a Sorcerer?
Spells I choose are True Strike, and Identify. Both have obvious though infrequent uses. (Other spells like Mage Armor are typically useless because the character will no doubt be using enchanted armor, AND the spell Shield simply doesn't last long enough.) I'll usually grab the beetle as a familiar (which is basically like having the feat "Toughness" for free).
Whats up with the single skill point skills?
I do that because sometimes it *appears* that one "native" point in an attribute seems to work better than *just* using a wearable modifier for that skill. Could be "all in my head" though.