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A question about the Voerman sisters (WARNING!! SPOILERS!!)

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Endymion
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A question about the Voerman sisters (WARNING!! SPOILERS!!)

Post by Endymion »

Hello everybody
I was just wondering... which is the exact history of Jeannette and Therese, including pre-embrace?
Spoiler
They appear to be only one physical person with split personalities as a result of being a Malkavian. One might infer that Therese developed her Jeannette persona as a result of her father's abuses (or the other way around, I'm no psychologist).
However, in the sister's room there is a large painting which portrays a father with two, identical, daughters.
Couldn't it be that the Voermans were actually two people and only one was actually embraced and her sense of guilt, (maybe the father abused only one of the sisters) combined with the Malkavian's curse, actually recreated the other persona.
I'd like to read your views... please, this is by no means a serious post, only a way of killing time.
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Kid SixXx
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Post by Kid SixXx »

Holy crap. I didn't know you posted here. I've played this PC game forever but never really bothered to post on any message boards about it until recently (problems with a previous patch).

Anyway (spoilers below):
Spoiler
There's no real evidence to support that Jeanette actually exists. The most likely scenario as you say, is that Therese "created" Jeanette as a way to insulate herself from her father's abuse since it clearly lasted through her childhood and through most of her adolescent years.

(much like in the film Session 9 where Mary Hobbes created the alternate personalities of The Princess and Billy to help her cope with the personality of Simon; the one that "convinced" Mary to murder her family after she suffered a devastating childhood trauma while playing hide & seek with her brother.)

The father probably didn't "shelter" Therese because he didn't want her to get hurt; he did it to keep Therese under his control. The persona of Jeanette then evolves from insulating Therese from her father's advances to serving as a catalyst of rebellion, as Jeanette "gets back at her father" by sleeping with other men.

Therese's psychosis was undeniably warped by her embrace into the Malkavian bloodline. So warped in fact that Therese arguably doesn't even believe that she is a Malkavian (if she does, she doesn't acknowledge it) and possibly believes she and her sister are Ventrue, since she clearly acts like a Ventrue and "admits" that she sired Jeanette in a further conversation (the one before the diner shootout).

Therese's belief that she and Jeanette are Ventrue and not Malkavian might give creedence to Therese's post mortem disappointment with her "sister": Jeanette's scandalous behavior is obviously not becoming of the noble Ventrue bloodline, and subsequently her antics in undeath are more damaging to Therese's reputation that they were in life.

Ergo, the Jeanette personality still serves the purpose of insulating Therese, only this time it is from failure. If anything goes wrong with Therese's plans, she can conveniently lay it at the feet of her alter ego.

The portrait is probably Therese's mnemonic to further convince herself that she and Jeanette are two different individuals, otherwise Therese would suddenly be forced to accept the fact that there is no "Jeanette" and she'd have to accept resposibility for her misdeeds and failures in life as well as in unlife, as well as finally cope with her childhood abuse.

Normally that'd be a decent first step on the road to proper psychological treatment for kine, but the reclaimation of sanity is impossible for Therese because her Malkavian blood makes her psychosis supernaturally indelible.

The one thing Therese did not count on was Jeanette eventually gaining enough confidence through opposing Therese's plans to attempt to finally become the dominant personality.

The telltale sign that Therese believes she & Jeanette are two different people is during your conversation with "Tourette" when she mentions that "they" tried to separate the sisters. Therese never acknowledges that she and Jeanette are the same individual throughout the entire conversation.

My assumption is that Therese was institutionalized after the murder of her father and was diagonosed as a schizophrenic. Therese resisted treatment because she couldn't bear losing her coping mechanism, somehow escaped from the asylum (no surprise why she she named the club what she did, eh?), and was probably embraced shortly thereafter.

The "conspiracy theory" I have is that Therese was embraced while she was an inmate at this nameless asylum by the very same Malkavian that embraced Grout. Therese then either used her newfound vampiric disciplines to effect her escape, or was assumed to be dead while in torpor after her embrace and made her way out of the morgue or something..

Grout mentions being embraced in an asylum by his Malkavian sire, and the one thing we really don't know about Therese is just how old she actually is, and both Therese and Grout have genteel qualities far above the ones that the average Malkovian possesses. Few things in the WoD happen as a matter of coincidence, so I don't think it's a shot in the dark to conjecture that Therese and Dr. Grout's respective sire is the same vampire.
There are holes in my theory (ie. "Jeanette" seems to know that she and her "sister" are Malkavian, but Therese seems blissfully unaware. Is this "Jeanette's" trump card that she secretly hangs over her sister's head), but most of it makes more sense than not... or as much sense as the WoD allows it to make.
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Wesp5
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Post by Wesp5 »

I just read your post and not to repeat any spoilers I found the last section very interesting and would agree with you to that as well as to the Ventrue idea.
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Amergin
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Post by Amergin »

One thing I noticed that may be relevant to one of Kid SixXx's remarks.

(Spoiler)
Spoiler
In the sisters' room, as well as the picture of the man with two small girls, there is a picture of two girls (near the bed). This same photo appears in the Ocean House Hotel, as does the abstract looking painting that is above the table just outside the sisters' room. Since Therese has an interest in the hotel, perhaps this is the source of these pictures. That would fit in with the idea of them being there to reinforce Therese's belief that she and Jeanette are separate individuals.
Of course, there are a lot of photos on the walls of the hotel, so it could equally be argued that there were two girls, and that they spent some time at the hotel.
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shift244
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Post by shift244 »

Perhaps
Spoiler
there were two girls at the beginning and Jeanette was lost part way (perhaps she committed suicide from the abuse). Jeanette was probably in Therese's vision the stronger sibling and/or was protecting Therese, until her end. Therese need not have known that Jeanette suffered the same as she; or perhaps she did as both were accusing each other with their own version of the story.

In any event, after Jeanette is gone, to deal with the ordeal with her father, Therese recreated Jeanette within her mind. Therese's hopes that Jeanette's continued protection/support failed utterly, and thus Therese, from her initial trust and believe in Jeannete, began to turn into loathing Jeanette for her failure. Subsequent evolution of both sisters should be pretty much like already posted.

The Malkavian embrace strengthened and completed the division of minds, culminating in Jeanette being reborn in undeath with Therese "siring" her. I would think that if Therese had never loved Jeanette, she would never have embraced her, even if only mentally doing so. To embrace Jeanette simply as an excuse for weakness means that Therese has to admit she has failures and needs to have Jeanette around to blame, even if only in her subconsciousness. It would perhaps, be more plausible for Therese to accept the reverse; that Jeanette had embraced her instead as Jeanette would need Therese deal with Jeanette's weaknesses.

It is merely for the sake of argument that Jeanette really did exist. Kid SixXx has a really good post for a purely imaginary Jeanette given life by the Malkav curse.

Therese likely knows that she is Malkav but aspires as a Ventrue or wished that she was Ventrue and so acts out accordingly. Jeanette admits and wholeheartedly embrace being Malkavian.

Alternately, Therese would truly believe she is Ventrue, until it was pointed out to her. It could be reasoned that the Malkav curse caused Therese to believe that her sire was Ventrue, the Ventrue flaw can easily be enacted out by her believe alone, and there is nothing in the rules that say that a Malkavian cannot take on a Ventrue flaw as part of the Malkavian curse. As I understand, Malkvians, by rules, get to choose what dementia they suffer (as part of the Malkav flaw) anyway, and creative players can reasonably make "believe I am Ventrue and suffer all their flaws as if it were real" as a dementia on character creation.

Similarly, not all Malkavians need to be utterly loony and totally incoherent. They are incurably insane, but insanity need not mean that they cannot be genteel and upperclassy. Not to mention that madness is also, story-wise, subject to the mental state of the individual at the time of embrace, to deteriorate, but also at an individual pace.

Furthermore, it would not be at all difficult for a powerful Malkavian to use any form of mind powers to impart into a young sireling's psyche that they "are of Ventrue, not Malkav bloodline" (see the rules reason above), if it serves the purpose. Or just for fun. Or as perhaps it was Grout himself that sired, as part of this research into the understanding and comprehension of the Malkav madness.

Edit:
On the Ocean House being related to the sisters, it is really interesting. Perhaps there is more to Therese's interest in the house, and perhaps Jeanette's as well beyond her tipsy facade. Or if could be that it's easier to reuse small decor than creating new ones; especially where time and money is short in coming. :p
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