Finally! The Dutch kill their blasphemy laws! (spam on subject only)

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:16 pm

Yes, the Dutch have had a blasphemy law, and they got it as recently as 1932. But some of them want to get rid of it. The Liberal Party, currently in power, is trying to do so. You can read about ithere.

But here's a taste:

A majority in the Dutch parliament, led by the ruling Labour Party, wants to scrap a law which fines or even imprisons people who commit blasphemy. But although the law isn't used anymore, even debating whether or not to scrap it is sensitive. The Christian parties in Dutch politics have always argued to keep it on the books....

And although there's a majority for scrapping the law, government is not asked to get rid of it immediately....Indeed, the law against blasphemy has been called a dead letter. The last conviction under the law took place more than forty years ago, when a student newspaper got the maximum fine of 100 guilders (40 euros) for making fun of the New Testament. And in the infamous "donkey" case in 1968, confrontational Dutch author Gerard van het Reve fantasized about sexual relations with God who had taken the form of a donkey. The author was prosecuted for blasphemy, but the court acquitted him.

Over to you.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:24 pm

Total non-issue.

Also, Partij van de Arbeid = "Liberal Party"? I guess that makes sense with the US connotations of the term Liberal, but...y'know...no.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:27 pm

Brother None wrote:Total non-issue.

Oh, but it isn't. Not if you've read some of the endless "uptight, God-loving, sex-hating USA" threads we've had in the past. After all, we over here got our triumphalist religion from the same sources as you and the British: the Calvinists and other somewhat intolerant groups. (In fact, ours began in Europe, and got to these shores. I still think the native Americans of that place and time should have set up a customs office and sent them back.) It's just that the presence of religiously conservative people in Europe is something nobody seems to like to discuss nowadays. At least, in Europe. Sort of like that uncle we all have who is barking mad and insists on wearing a pyramid on his head to keep out the government.

Also, Partij van de Arbeid = "Liberal Party"? I guess that makes sense with the US connotations of the term Liberal, but...y'know...no.

Please: I'm slightly more sophisticated than to confuse some other nation's Liberal Party with notions of American "liberalism." I simply noted it because they're in office, they're making the move, and that's their name. If their name had been The Party of Large Green Things That Go Gubba-Gubba, I would still have listed it.

I have to wonder how this will affect the religious parties in their ruling coalition. Probably not very, since an attempt to enforce the law hasn't been tried in so long, and being part of the ruling elite is ever-so-much-more-fun than grousing from the sidelines. Even if it's only as a minority member of that coalition.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:47 am

I have no knowledge of this other than the article Fable linked to, but it doesn't seem like a non issue to me, not because I expect the law to be resurrected, but because the extremist SGP are making an issue of it. Is there anyone who knows a bit more about dutch politics who could guess whether they will be able to make a few votes of it or not?

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:39 am

Eh, no. Politics bore me and I'll usually vote for GroenLinks (Green-Left, figure it out) anyway, to provide balance in the Force. But the PvdA is usually the second or third biggest party, so I suspect they'll get their knickers straightened out.

I think it's time for a little diplomatic retribution. I've looked all over the Internets to find this site that collected 100 or 1000 absurd state laws from all over the US. Things like 'don't shoot moose from out of a helicopter' and 'you can't hit your woman on church days'. Anyone know where to find it?

AvatarOfLight · Post by **AvatarOfLight** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:03 am

Loony Laws - Outrageous Ordinances and Silly Statutes
No idea if it's real but they are pretty nice reads.

Not much to add on blasphemy. I suppose getting rid of useless laws is a good thing, but I doubt many people really care

Shrike86 · Post by **Shrike86** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:38 am

To be honest I didn't even know we HAD a blasphemy law

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:33 am

Brother None wrote:Total non-issue.

Also, Partij van de Arbeid = "Liberal Party"? I guess that makes sense with the US connotations of the term Liberal, but...y'know...no.

You're right. The translation seems rather odd. It was done very, very "liberal." (Pun intended.) European Politics tend to know a lot of variations and gradations on "left" & "right".
I do agree it's rather a non-issue, since the lawseems to be a dead lettre.
Fable, you made the comparison yourself: Let the loonies have their gimmick and they're quiet, while the rest of us focus on the important stuff.

The Dutch tend be a very openminded people and quite friendly, so chances are rather low they'll start prosecuting people for blasphemy. (Look at my location and you'll see it's no so evident that I'll praise the Dutch. (Which is some kind of running joke between Belgians & Dutchmen.))

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:29 am

GawainBS wrote:The Dutch tend be a very openminded people and quite friendly, so chances are rather low they'll start prosecuting people for blasphemy. (Look at my location and you'll see it's no so evident that I'll praise the Dutch. (Which is some kind of running joke between Belgians & Dutchmen.))

But--and meaning no disrespect to the Dutch--there has been less tolerance of late for minority cultures, less tolerance of "light drug zones" and prostitution. The murder of Theo van Gogh, two years after that of Pim Fortuyn, has led to an increasing polarization within Dutch society. I have to wonder whether Dutch tolerance wasn't to some extent conditioned by a lack of sizable minority cultures of different goals--at least, until differences with a sizable minority of that Muslim community became apparent? It is always easiest to be tolerant in a nation where the vast majority of people feel completely confident in both their own security, their numbers, and their way of life.

But this does move away from the idea of these old blasphemy laws, which are still on the books. And not just in the Netherlands, either: the British have a sizable number, and so do the Scandanavians, the French, the Swiss, etc. Wherever the culture has favored a sternly Augustian interpretation of Christianity, laws have followed attempting to force people to behave decently. Some are simply well-meaning attempts to do the impossible. Others were, to put it bluntly, insane. But these cultures don't go away, they just shrink in size and poltiical influence. And remain, I think, as a testament to a different national culture than the one modern urbanites follow.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:46 am

I can honestly say that my encounters with the "light drug zones" in both Amsterdam and "Fristaden" in Copenhagen has basically been a display of people of dubious personal hygiene living in their own filth while trying to present some caveman-like aestethic of "free spirit." These areas are all ruled by a feudal system of biker gangs and organized crime cartels.

Anyways, during my first trip to Holland back in 1979, Utrecht to be precise, I was greeted at the airport by the sight of a rockabilly/teddyboy wearing a quite stupendous quiff and a t-shirt that said "Jesus was a f***ing hippie!" in very large letters. So much for the blasphemy law.:laugh:

Oskatat · Post by **Oskatat** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:55 am

i live in the netherlands. i remember 1 case in which blasphemy was cause for a trial, and it was countered with freedom of speech, so they just got rid of a useless law

as to intollerance, yes, thats what happens when people get killed for their opinions. its also what happens when things change, people resist. As to the drug laws, i can assure all you tourists (yes, mostly tourists, especialy in amsterdam) that the reactions of politicians were fueled by the well known motive of "staying popular" and that some commissions are now knocking down on a total illegalization, saying it wont work (and it doesnt. i dont have to name examples do I?)

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:45 pm

fable wrote:But this does move away from the idea of these old blasphemy laws, which are still on the books. And not just in the Netherlands, either: the British have a sizable number

Not any more we don't, they've just been consigned to history, and about bloody time too!

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:23 pm

galraen wrote:Not any more we don't, they've just been consigned to history, and about bloody time too!

Sounds interesting. Can you post some links with details?

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:09 am

I may have pre-empted it by a few weeks actually, but JURIST - Paper Chase: UK House of Lords votes to abolish criminal blasphemy, and Bills and Legislation - Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. It's all but a done deal, it's cleared both houses now, so it's just a matter of getting the old dodderer to make her mark, which should happen just after Beltane,