Man who wants everything

Invisable Man · Post by **Invisable Man** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:24 am

hi im new and just got the game and the expansion and im the kind of person that wants to be able to everything with 1 char so i was thinking of going rouge/assassin/blackgaurd im human and im chaotic evil can someone give me an idea on a good evenly developed build in which i can perform all tasks that i need done

e.g lockpicking, etc

GoldDragon · Post by **GoldDragon** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:09 pm

Alas, this is a type of game where "seeing everything with one character" would be downright difficult, if not outright impossible.

I'd suggest 2 characters, one evil (Take the thief path thruout) and one good (Watch Route). This would ALSO include Crossroad Keep, where you can take 1 of two paths to build, as well.

The game DOES follow a fairly Linear path, and is heavily biased towards the Extremes (Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil), so to truly see everything, one must do both, and in ONE character, that could be difficult.

Soontir Fel · Post by **Soontir Fel** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:22 pm

Spoilerish knowledge about MoTB.

Spoiler

In MoTB the spirit-eating feats are specific for evil and good characters, for example you cant get eternal rest feat if you are evil.

Invisable Man · Post by **Invisable Man** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:29 pm

GoldDragon wrote:Alas, this is a type of game where "seeing everything with one character" would be downright difficult, if not outright impossible.

I'd suggest 2 characters, one evil (Take the thief path thruout) and one good (Watch Route). This would ALSO include Crossroad Keep, where you can take 1 of two paths to build, as well.

The game DOES follow a fairly Linear path, and is heavily biased towards the Extremes (Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil), so to truly see everything, one must do both, and in ONE character, that could be difficult.

srry uhm what i meant by man who wants everything is that i want to be able to do as many feats as possiable i techniqually hav no plans of doing anything good and i choose to be as melevolent as possible i only meant to be able to lock pick, steal, disable, and hide while still being able to get the good skills from the classes i choose hence being able to play my character sontinuaosly being able to do tasks without my minions help and still being able to prduce a quite good ammount of damage

Soontir Fel · Post by **Soontir Fel** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:59 pm

Rouge and Bard are the best classes for skills. Weapon Master prestige class is good for damage out-put. It increases the critical multiplier and chance of making a critical strike, but requires 6 feats.

You should get the "Feint" feat, which denies dexterity bonus so you can sneak attack.

You can get 4 levels as Fighter for Weapon Specialization and bonus feats.

This link should help you further.
Category:Character builds - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki

Invisable Man · Post by **Invisable Man** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:32 pm

ah but you dont know what i mean i wish to prolong the growth of my skills as i grow in strength

i wish to go rouge 13/assassin/9 blackgaurd 8/ i wish i could tell you how i will sort out my skills but im a little confused myself all i know is that the skills im using from when i started as a rouge will be progressing through until i reach the end

Soontir Fel · Post by **Soontir Fel** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:51 pm

Well if you figured out what build you'll use what are you asking exactly?

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:23 pm

Soontir Fel wrote:Well if you figured out what build you'll use what are you asking exactly?

I think he's said it a couple of times now - feats and skills. i.e. what feats and skills at what level - particularly when compared to whats required for those skills in-game (..and what feats are most useful). Moreover, its likely that he wants some sort of confirmation on his class structure vs. game play.

IMO diplomacy is critical by about character level 10-12 depending on the race. Bluff can be advantageous a couple levels before then (needing not much more than about 10 + bonuses).

In general a well-developed skill is one that has a point in it at every level-up and is *not* a class restricted skill.

Here is the class list (and for each a listing of class-skills):

http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwintern ... lasses.php

Note the class skills for a rogue:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwintern ... /rogue.php

· Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft Alchemy, Craft Trap, Craft Weapon, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Lore, Move Silently, Open Lock, Parry, Search, Set Trap, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Taunt, Tumble, and Use Magic Device.

Pretty much everything is there (except perform and spellcraft).

Key skills are Diplomacy, Bluff, Disable Device, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Lore, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

Bluff, Intimidate, Listen, Lore, and Search are lesser skills IMO. (..listen you don't need right away and the other 4 can be stopped around *10*.)

Note that the proposed class build should be a "back stab" only character - the Assassin's death attack relies on this.

I'd switch over to Assassin as soon as possible from Rogue - getting that class up to level 8 as quickly as possible to unlock "hide in plain sight".

As for feats - definitely start planning out what feats you'll need for the EPIC feats you'll want latter:

Category:Epic feats - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki

The *key* epic feat you'll want for this character is:

Epic Precision - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki

Make sure that you pick Crippling Strike at Rogue level *10*.. and as a result you should probably start back into your Rogue class right after getting the levels in Assassin that you want so that you have access to Epic Precision once you become an Epic Character.

As far as other class suggestions are concerned - I'd get rid of the levels as a Blackguard for this particular character because the attack mode will almost always be a sneak attack method (hide, and then sneak attack again, etc.) - and any armor will reduce your ability to hide.

A more interesting class combination would be: Rogue/Warlock/Assassin.

At 6th level the Warlock receives a 2nd level invocation which would allow selection of "Walk Unseen" - which grants access to *unlimited* invisibility. One of your first level invocations would be "Hideous Blow" which would allow you to add your eldritch blast to your first attack (basically acting as a magical sneak attack). Furthermore, when Invisible you can cast "Hideous blow" and remain unseen.

Note that *IF* you go the Warlock route then you would need a race of either Human or Half/elf or Half/drow (..I'd choose *human* for this build, one more skill point per level and an extra feat at the beginning). AND you would still need to "interleave" your Rogue skill class in conjunction with the Warlock class.

The primary attribute would be Dexterity. Starting at 18 and constantly upgrading it when available.

i.e.

1. Rogue (
2. Warlock (Hideous Blow)
3. Rogue (Feat Weapon Finesse for your high dexterity character)
4. Warlock (Leaps and Bounds)
5. Rogue
6. Warlock
7. Rogue
8. Warlock (See the Unseen)
9. Rogue
10. Warlock
11. Rogue.
12. Warlock (Walk Unseen)
13. Rogue
14. Rogue
15. Rogue
16. Rogue (Crippling Strike)
17. Assassin
18. etc..

The other epic feats you would want with such a build would be additional "Improved Sneak attacks" (..after selecting Epic Precision).

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:00 pm

I'd either build a dedicated feinter or incorporate HIPS. Or both. Rogue/assassin does a lot of damage by sneak attack and they need a way to deliver that. Blackguard fits in with a feinter since you will have some charisma and a +charisma item. I would select divine shield as a feat. But probably take assassin to 8 and just use HIPS.

Rogue 19 - for crippling strike and defensive roll and imp evasion (2nd two for epic dodge) plus a bonus rogue feat which could be improved sneak attack?

Assassin 8 - for HIPS

Blackguard 3 - for divine shield

if you start from scratch be a strongheart halfling or human or tiefling...
if you start at level 18 choose from those or maybe drow

Strongheart Halfling: starting dexterity 19 all increases to dexterity
1 Rogue 1 Dodge, Power Attack
2 Rogue 2
3 Rogue 3 Weapon Finesse
4 Rogue 4
5 Rogue 5
6 Assassin 1 Cleave
7 Assassin 2
8 Assassin 3
9 Rogue 6 TWF
10 Blackguard 1
11 Blackguard 2
12 Blackguard 3 Divine Shield
13 Rogue 7
14 Assassin 4
15 Assassin 5 ITWF
16 Rogue 8
17 Assassin 6
18 Assassin 7 GTWF
19 Assassin 8
20 Rogue 9
21 Rogue 10 Crippling Strike, Epic Precision
22 Rogue 11
23 Rogue 12 Epic Prowess
24 Rogue 13 Improved Evasion
25 Rogue 14 Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
26 Rogue 15
27 Rogue 16 Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge
28 Rogue 17
29 Rogue 18 Expose Weakness
30 Rogue 19 Improved Sneak Attack

I forgot Mobility...might have to go Rogue 16 Blackguard 4 and take 2 levels of Fighter to get some feats...sorry

Second Edit: no mobility needed this is not shadowdancer...also you could take something else instead of dodge..maybe blindfight later on.

Invisable Man · Post by **Invisable Man** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:00 pm

kool ty for the detailed visage but does armor really hinder the abliity to hide because ive just made my character quite well suited for the blackgaurd and if this is true then i probebly should create another char to be more of a stealth character and also does invisability let one continuosly sneack attack?

p.s. dont worry about me starting over i didnt get very far

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:33 pm

Invisable Man wrote:kool ty for the detailed visage but does armor really hinder the abliity to hide because ive just made my character quite well suited for the blackgaurd and if this is true then i probebly should create another char to be more of a stealth character and also does invisability let one continuosly sneack attack?

p.s. dont worry about me starting over i didnt get very far

..it depends on the armor. Some of the lighter armor has only a 10% detriment. Also, there may be some armor that overcomes this negative with additional bonuses to either remove the penalty and/or add to your hide and move silently skills.

Also remember that *if* its a high dexterity character that your dexterity bonus to AC will be increasingly negated with heavier armors.

BTW, I tested out a character based on the high backstab - and wasn't to impressed against non-sneak attack opponents like undead (..and thats *with* epic precision). It wasn't bad, but it wasn't a particularly powerful character either.

If you want something more along the lines of a "purist" Blackguard then consider a build that concentrates more on melee ability (str. and constitution), and less on dexterity. For that consider at MOST one level of rogue at the appropriate time and the feat "Able Learner" at character creation.

..and no - invisibility does NOT let you continuously sneak attack - usually its only the first attack that counts as a sneak attack. Sometimes the second attack is a sneak attack, because your opponent may still be facing away from you.. OR sometimes your opponent is preoccupied with casting a spell or something and allows for "attacks of opportunity". The attack works the same for either invisibility or "hide" (..there are however several distinct differences beyond the attack itself).

Try downloading Vordan's Hero creator and testing your characters out:

Vordan's Hero Creator -- Neverwinter Nights 2 Vault

Note the install instructions:

"Installation:
Move the file "Vordan's Hero Creator.mod" into your My Documents/Neverwinter Nights 2/modules folder. "

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:02 pm

Here is something interesting I found on the Assassin's "paralysis" feature with "Death Attack":

DC Death Attack: 10 + Assassin lvl + INT mod = DC (fortitude save)

Of course I believe that most opponents immune to sneak attack are also immune to paralysis (..and epic precision will not overcome the paralysis limitation).

As a result - I don't think its worthwhile to skimp on your levels of Assassin - it should be 10 AND you should have at least an intelligence of 14 (IMO). That would equal a DC save of 22 (which is just barely adequate).

Really the best combination for an assassin is probably 10 Wizard, 10 Assassin, 10 Arcane Trickster. With the higher Intelligence required for the "Wizard" class - you increase your probability to make a successful paralyzing death attack. Of course those opponents that can't be sneak attacked should be killed with magic.

Note that with an opponent paralyzed - ALL OF YOUR ATTACKS BECOME SNEAK ATTACKS and you don't have to remain hidden at all.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:27 pm

..and with that bit of information.

The "Blackguard" character should rely on the feat KNOCKDOWN. The result is very similar to paralysis - i.e. all of your attacks become sneak attacks when the opponent is "knocked down".:mischief:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/sear ... eats.id=23

http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/sear ... eats.id=17

"A character with this feat can attempt a special knockdown attempt, which does not cause damage or provoke an attack of opportunity. A character may only knock down creatures that are one size larger than itself or less. The attacker makes a d20 roll modified by his strength bonus, and the difference between his creature size and the target creature size times 4. The defender makes a d20 roll modified by the better of his strength and dexterity bonus. If the attacker meets or beats the defender's roll, the defender is knocked down. Prone characters cannot attack. Characters receive a +4 bonus to attack prone opponents in melee, but a -4 penalty to attack them with a ranged weapon. "

Obviously here Strength is the critical factor for your character.

Perhaps a Bard/RDD/Blackguard is the path to take? (..and maybe one level as a Shadow Dancer for the Hide in plain sight feat - to allow you to sneak up and knockdown - and then wail on the opponent.)

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:31 pm

I just tested out a Bard 5/RDD 10/Frenzied Berserker 5/Blackguard 10 (Earth Gensai). 18/14/18/10/6/12

Not nearly as many skill points or skills - but enough in Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, and Use Magic Device to still be good.

The damage with improved power attack was just awesome - and improved knockdown worked like a charm against most opponents including Undead (.. and on occasion even Red Dragons). There is a "cool down" period of course between knockdowns.

9- in epic damage resistance was pretty sweet too.

With Able Learner at the beginning - THIS is a good build.

KaaH · Post by **KaaH** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:18 pm

After finddling about a good build for the X-Pack, I came to some very similar builds:

Jack-o-Trades (Drow)
the afore mentioned Bard/RDD/BG/FB, which will never come to a BAB of 26
- I like this build more than the 2nd choice (that follows), but would distribute lvl's differently -> Bard14/RDD10/BG4/FB2 this way you get way more skillponts, BAB 23, up to Lvl 5 Bardspells and the regeneration Inspiration@ 2HP/round (may not seem much, but for all party members -> less resting) and for combat +3 AB and +3 damage Inspiration (makes up for BAB loss^^)
(Pre-Epic -> Ba5/RDD10/BG3/FB2)

2nd one (Aasimar)
Pa14/Ba2/RDD10/FB2 (Warning!!! will only be doable by debugmode and alignment change via script) only thing worthwhile here is BAB of 26; one could swap lvls as log as you stop Bard by 4 (more gives BAB of less than 26) and Pa must have a minimum of 5 (less does not allow Epic Divine Might)...
all in all -> utter crap^^

The Jack has emerged superior to a lot of test-builds for the Campaign
including Monk12/Ba4/RDD10/BG4 with Perfect TWF + Epic Divine Might and the Cheat Build So/SS/EK/ASC (ok I prefer MeleeCaster to Caster Melees^^)

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:32 pm

(..mild "bitch-fest" here

)

You know I see these builds with epic divine might being touted, but I'm not sure what the "buz" is all about?

..twice your charisma bonus in damage in most instances doesn't amount to a whole lot (..*maybe* 10-12 damage with a balanced build and a +8 nymph cloak). Moreover most of these builds don't have many "turn undead's" to spend on it in a day. So its a very limited application *unless* you can rest pretty much where ever you want without consequence (..something you can't do in MOTB).

Really *effective* melee damage is damage you have available all the time, i.e. dual-weapons with lots of elemental damage added, OR a two-handed weapon with improved power attack and enhanced power attack (or supreme power attack) via the FB class. And *if* you go the dual-weapon route you *will* compromise Strength in favor of Dexterity (even with an RDD) and will completely rely on your weapon's elemental damage modifiers (to do the deed).

..am I missing something?

KaaH · Post by **KaaH** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:43 am

Ba/RDD/BG/FB

Let your party hang back and toss some fire aoe spells (you are immune thanks to RDD)...
taking the (special) falcion with impr. crit will do for normal encounters (2 cleave hits from FB are nice as is thoughness feat, by the way^^)

The Epic Divine Might is just for kicks in boss fights or masses of enemies
(need 21 to take the feat + 8 from cloak (and maybe 1 Gr. Cha.) gives 29(30) Cha equals +9(10) bonus = 18(20) dmg per swing (cleaves too) and they can crit

the high Cha serves a second service as its bonus is added to saves via the BG (in case the Drow's sr doesen't cut it)

Dual Wield is a different story, well, on a second thought... not that much you trade damage per swing for swings per round. Everything is centered around Perf. TWF

Example Mo12/Ba4/RDD10/BG4 Drow
(ECL + massive XP penalty due to missaligned classes, not a good build for campaign)

Monk11+x -> Gr. Flurry
Bardx -> access to RDD
RDD10 -> pushing stats you need
BG4+x -> Epic Divine Might and cha bonus to saves

18 attacks per round with 18 added damage each from Epic Divine Might
(to hit - is the problem -)

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:44 am

KaaH wrote:Ba/RDD/BG/FB

Let your party hang back and toss some fire aoe spells (you are immune thanks to RDD)...
taking the (special) falcion with impr. crit will do for normal encounters (2 cleave hits from FB are nice as is thoughness feat, by the way^^)

The Epic Divine Might is just for kicks in boss fights or masses of enemies
(need 21 to take the feat + 8 from cloak (and maybe 1 Gr. Cha.) gives 29(30) Cha equals +9(10) bonus = 18(20) dmg per swing (cleaves too) and they can crit
the high Cha serves a second service as its bonus is added to saves via the BG (in case the Drow's sr doesen't cut it)

Dual Wield is a different story, well, on a second thought... not that much you trade damage per swing for swings per round. Everything is centered around Perf. TWF

Example Mo12/Ba4/RDD10/BG4 Drow
(ECL + massive XP penalty due to missaligned classes, not a good build for campaign)

Monk11+x -> Gr. Flurry
Bardx -> access to RDD
RDD10 -> pushing stats you need
BG4+x -> Epic Divine Might and cha bonus to saves

18 attacks per round with 18 added damage each from Epic Divine Might
(to hit - is the problem -)

ahh, thats right - you have to have a really high Chr. just to get it, which hoses str. and con. by default. A waste unless Chr. is really needed for something like spell casting and/or a double helping of savings throw modifiers (ie. Blackguard AND Paladin). REALLY not worth it.

Yup, I also noted the lack of overall ability to make contact in a dual-wield character (..in comparison to a melee'esq Frenzied Berserker two-handed weapon build). And without that additional in weapon damage, the overall damage isn't as good. WITH that weapon damage though its better (..and a LOT better if you can make each attack hit).