Temporary change in party. *SPOILERS

[fable]

(With this being his first trip through the game, does Sonny even know about

Spoiler

Mr. S

?)

Good point. I've put spoilers around that.

[VonDondu]

In the Rift Area on the Unseeing Eye quest after freeing the Avatar, Jan pipes up: "That didn't go like the first time I meet a god". Of course Anomen does not believe Jan ever met a god. Then Jan starts his story of the time that the god Oghma got drunk and passed out in his cousin's yard, and while he was passed out, Jan and his cousin pulled Oghma's underwear up around his shoulder blades and on and on...

That's known as a "wedgie".

If Minsc is in your party when Jan first begins telling that story, Minsc asks incredulously, "Tiny has met a god before this?" Haer'Dalis, who should be smart enough to see what's coming but doesn't, is interested and says casually, "Aye, I have been fortunate to see the odd deity in my time on the planes. At least those times that they chose to travel openly, that is. What manner of encounter do you speak of?" At the end of the story, if Korgan is in your party, Korgan mutters with disgust, "One of these days, ye'll be squashed like a bug for yer impudence, gnome. Not even I would make such casual mockery of the gods." Keldorn and Mazzy chide Jan for making up such a story about a respected god, but Aerie (another Lawful Good NPC) thinks it's a funny story.

[sonny]

Good point. I've put spoilers around that.

No, I have not played ToB yet, and to be safe I did not highlight your post or CFM's post.

I gather from your comments I should either take Jan or leave him, not sure which. So I'll tell you my plans are to take him all the way through SoA and ToB if I can. I won't considered it a "spoiler" if you tell me if it's a good choice or bad choice based on what I've told you about my feelings about the little guy.:speech:

Thanks again everyone.

"The eyes boo, go for the eyes":laugh: Man if you don't like this game, something wrong with you.

[fable]

I consider taking Jan along a good choice, but you probably already guessed that. He's versatile, becomes increasingly powerful, and is just plain damn fun to have around.

[sonny]

Another dilemma Need advice

After finishing Unseeing Eye quest, went back to Athkatla, and when I entered the Government district, the Keldorn side quest came up.

I know you guys probably think I spend to much thinking for a game, but I do tend to get involved.

Went to his house, he talked to his wife and kids, and confronted the guy courting his wife, and still I have problems with this.

First and foremost, he talks like Imoen has never been rescued yet and that bothers me. Will he ever realize she's in the party. Her rescue accrued before I picked him up. Is this a bug.

1. If you read his bio, this guy was meant to be a warrior.
2. If he missed his wife and kids as much as he wants you to believe, then why did he stay in the guild hall instead of his home when he was in the city?
3. When I came back 1 day later to get him, why did he not protest more and just say no.
4.If I remember, his wife said it had been a month since the last time he was home, and already she found someone else.

My heart says to let him go and be with his family. And it's probably the right thing to do. Would give you that feel good all over feeling. But I would still be wandering if I did the right thing by thinking with my heart.
My gut says that in a weeks time he would be miserable. I worked for the fire department for 30 years and when I retired, I was climbing the walls after a few months and could not wait to get a part time job.
It's to bad the writers did not offer to let him make the choice.

To sum it up, my gut tells me this guy wants to continue his adventures. I also have a feeling he is a lot better then Anomen in the long run.
So if you guys could give me your thoughts I would be grateful and would also like your opinion one which of the two would be better to take to ToB.

I have to let one of them go, because Minsc is my guy and I want him in my party.

Thanks in advance. I value your opinions

[galraen]

First the Imoen thing, Bioware sety the game up so that you were supposed to do the side quests (including the Unseeiong Eye) BEFORE going to Spellhold, the dialogue they wrote reflects that.

1. He is a warrior, that's what a Paladin is, a Holy Warrior.

2. Why spend so much time doing his duty would be my way of putting it, I think he got his priorities wrong, but I think that about a lot of people that put their job before their family.

3. Because he gave his word to help you, if you want to hold hm to that, that's up to you and your conscience.

4.And how long was it before his last visit? Judging by the 'duty before anything' types I've known it could have been a lot longr than a month. I think she was wrong, but he's decided to forgive her, that's his choice, and I respect it.

5. Whos says he's actually retired, he's still a member of the RH. My view was (and is) if i take him with me for my own benefit, I'm not just taking him from his family, but also from his duty. But that's MY point of view, you have to make the decision yourself, based on your own POV.

I had a moral tussle with myself when I first encountered this, and believe me, it would be an even more difficult decision if you had done the Windspear Hills quest first. As for Keldorn or Minsc, I'd rather take a viper than Minsc!

[Crenshinibon]

I'd like to think that it would do Keldorn good to spend time with his family and that Anomen needs my constant attention, lest he go overboard with his idea of "justice". I think the paladin can do greater good elsewhere, rather than at your side.

As for actual power, I'd give the prize to Anomen rather than Keldorn, but it's worth having both in your party as Anomen could well profit from the old paladin's teachings, or so I think.

[VonDondu]

My heart says to let him go and be with his family. And it's probably the right thing to do. Would give you that feel good all over feeling. But I would still be wandering if I did the right thing by thinking with my heart.
My gut says that in a weeks time he would be miserable. I worked for the fire department for 30 years and when I retired, I was climbing the walls after a few months and could not wait to get a part time job.
It's to bad the writers did not offer to let him make the choice.

I feel sorry for Keldorn's wife and kids, and a little bit sorry for Keldorn himself, who doesn't know how to balance work and family life.

One way to look at it is this: Keldorn isn't capable of making good decisions on his own. He's a good man, but he's a follower, not a leader. He lets "duty" decide everything for him. The problem is, after trying to do his duty all his life, he is starting to see things that make him wonder whether "duty" has the answer for everything. If you keep him in your party, you'll see some dialogue to that effect (except you might have missed some since you have done so many sidequests without him already).

The people at Bioware wanted to let YOU make the choice. After all, it's your game, and you should make yourself happy. Bioware gave you the chance to be happy with any decision you make. If you think that Keldorn should have his wife and her "lover" arrested for adultery, then by the gods, that's the right thing to do. If you think that Keldorn should make up with his wife and give up his career so he can spend more time at home, then everyone is happy. If you think that Keldorn should come with you on your adventures, then he will be glad to. In other words, don't look for a definitive answer in the game itself.

There is also another consideration. Your character is not just the offspring of a god, but the offspring of the God of Murder. This will become a lot more important when you start playing Throne of Bhaal. You won't merely be trying to recover your soul from a mad wizard who wants to steal it for his own purposes; you'll be at the center of events that will leave the Sword Coast drenched with blood. Keldorn has killed a few orcs in his time, but he has never dealt with a challenge as monumental as the one you present. Do you remember what Sarevok told you in BG1? One Bhaalspawn will rise above the rest and change the course of history. How do you think Keldorn feels about THAT? Do you suppose he would enjoy staying at home while you're out there meeting your destiny and possibly leaving thousands of victims in your wake? Or do you suppose he would like to be by your side, doing whatever he can to prevent your soul from turning dark and to prevent you from causing the deaths of thousands of people?

This is an epic adventure, but you're worried about the small stuff.

I'd like to think that it would do Keldorn good to spend time with his family and that Anomen needs my constant attention, lest he go overboard with his idea of "justice". I think the paladin can do greater good elsewhere, rather than at your side.

See my remarks above.

I also have a feeling he is a lot better then Anomen in the long run.

Keldorn and Anomen are both great warriors, and either one of them can serve you well. Keldorn's ability to dispel magic is singularly one of the most powerful abilities in the game, but it's not the answer to everything. (It's actually pretty annoying when you've cast spells like Greater Malison on your enemies and then Keldorn comes along and dispels them.) Anomen can do many, many things that Keldorn can't do (for example, Anomen can make a lich explode without having to fight it), and in certain situations, Anomen is better in combat than Keldorn. (You really need to try his buffing spells.) It's not clear at all that you should replace Anomen with Keldorn.

Of course, some people like to have both of them in their party. They make a great team.

First the Imoen thing, Bioware sety the game up so that you were supposed to do the side quests (including the Unseeiong Eye) BEFORE going to Spellhold, the dialogue they wrote reflects that.

I can't read their minds, but I don't think the people at Bioware expected every player to finish every single sidequest in the game. The players who participate on these message boards tend to be the type who think they have "failed" unless they have achieved 100% completion; but I think Bioware had a more "generic" player in mind when they wrote the dialogue. I reckon they expected most players to do enough sidequests to raise 15,000 gold pieces, then go to Spellhold, and then finish Chapters Six and Seven without doing any more of the sidequests. That's pretty much what I did the first time I played BG2 because I was trying to follow the hints and do what the game was telling me to do.

So to be more specific, I think Bioware assumed that you would meet Keldorn's family before you headed for Spellhold.

Either that, or else the dialogue was written when they planned to let Imoen die in Spellhold, and they didn't have time to change it when they decided to let Imoen survive. Deadlines have a way of preventing you from doing everything you would like to do, you know.

[Excalibur_2102]

I had huge amounts of trouble deciding what to do here. Hes a Paladin of Torm which means that his duty is of upmost importance, but he made the mistake of favouring it over his familly. Its a classic conflict of Paladins between their duty, service to their god and familly but it will always get to you. Also hes a man of his word, unless you say otherwise he'll stay with you until your adventure is complete. One last duty as I think he said. whats the right decision to make here, I'll let you decide.

[sonny]

I've been reading every ones comments and am still thinking about what I want to do.

I would like to quote some of the things you have said. I do not know how to do more then one quote at a time.
Can someone please tell me how you put quotes from different posters in a reply like VonDondu has just done in this thread.

Thanks, hope it's not asking to much.

[anarchistica]

If you have a proper browser (Firefox) or even crappy Internet Explorer 7, you can middle click on links to open them in a new tab. By middle-clicking on everything you wanna reply to and copy/pasting (CTRL+C > CTRL+V) them into one post you can quote them all in one post.

Since this is your first time playing BG2, i'd definitely go with Keldorn. No need for buffing or anything, just give him a big sword and he's set. And trust me, you will get a big sword...

[galraen]

There is also another consideration. Your character is not just the offspring of a god, but the offspring of the God of Murder. This will become a lot more important when you start playing Throne of Bhaal. You won't merely be trying to recover your soul from a mad wizard who wants to steal it for his own purposes; you'll be at the center of events that will leave the Sword Coast drenched with blood. Keldorn has killed a few orcs in his time, but he has never dealt with a challenge as monumental as the one you present. Do you remember what Sarevok told you in BG1? One Bhaalspawn will rise above the rest and change the course of history. How do you think Keldorn feels about THAT? Do you suppose he would enjoy staying at home while you're out there meeting your destiny and possibly leaving thousands of victims in your wake? Or do you suppose he would like to be by your side, doing whatever he can to prevent your soul from turning dark and to prevent you from causing the deaths of thousands of people?

A very well thought out and constructed argument. However I think your tending to give Keldorn credit for more predictive powers than are indicated in the game. He may know that your are a child of Baal, but how much doe he know of the prophesies of Alaundo? I got the impression of Keldorn that he was a very unimaginative guy, with little or no leadership qualities (as you pointed out) I don't think he'd be capable of the deep thinking it would take to think along the lines you suggested.

The bottom line is of course as has been said by most of us many times, and reiterated by you and I in this thread, it's up to ech of us to decide for ourselves how we want to play it, and how we interpret the story.

I can't read their minds, but I don't think the people at Bioware expected every player to finish every single sidequest in the game. The players who participate on these message boards tend to be the type who think they have "failed" unless they have achieved 100% completion; but I think Bioware had a more "generic" player in mind when they wrote the dialogue. I reckon they expected most players to do enough sidequests to raise 15,000 gold pieces, then go to Spellhold, and then finish Chapters Six and Seven without doing any more of the sidequests. That's pretty much what I did the first time I played BG2 because I was trying to follow the hints and do what the game was telling me to do.

That's pretty much what I meant, I wasn't saying (or intending to) that they expected everyone to complete every side quest first, but that they'd complete the ones they were going to do prior to going to Spellhold.

I can't remember how many of the side quest I did complete the first time I completed the game, I suspect I missed at least one, and I definitely remember getting so confused and frustrated in Spellhold I just got out at the first opportunity, so didn't get the BoS, or Gesen's Bowstring etc..

[VonDondu]

A very well thought out and constructed argument. However I think your tending to give Keldorn credit for more predictive powers than are indicated in the game. He may know that your are a child of Baal, but how much doe he know of the prophesies of Alaundo? I got the impression of Keldorn that he was a very unimaginative guy, with little or no leadership qualities (as you pointed out) I don't think he'd be capable of the deep thinking it would take to think along the lines you suggested.

What I meant is that if Keldorn stays home, he'll be kicking himself later when he hears about the events that are unfolding. (It's a pretty big story that everyone will hear about eventually.) He'll be saying to himself, rightfully or not, "I had the chance to make a difference, and I blew it."

Besides, you're not giving Keldorn enough credit. If you let him stay in your party, he will learn that your character is a child of Bhaal, and he will tell you that he has consulted the Order to see if they have any insight concerning your character's fate. Keldorn promises (or threatens, depending on how you look at it) to keep an eye on you. He is definitely interested in what will happen in the future.

[CFM]

I feel sorry for Keldorn's wife and kids, and a little bit sorry for Keldorn himself, who doesn't know how to balance work and family life.

I agree with every part of this entire post. In fact, I don't think I thought the whole "Keldorn over Anomen" thing through well enough.

Combat-wise, Keldorn requires a little less thought than Anomen. Throw his awesome Dispel Magic and True Sight abilities around, and have him swing the biggest sword you got, and that's Keldoen in combat. And one of the best items that you'll find in the game is tailor made for him.

Anomen and his wide array of cleric spells has more potential, depending on how much attention you put towards putting his spells to good use. There is a wide range of offense and defense to be found in the cleric's spell list. And he can use another one of the best items that you'll find in the game.

So Keldorn has a bit more straight forward-ness in combat, whereas Anomen requires a bit more managing to get his full potential. Good or bad, depending on your playing preferences.

One other thing to consider is that if you plan to play through the Saga again, and want to experience as many NPC's as possible, maybe it's best to finish your current game with Anomen, since you've already come this far with him, and save Keldorn and his entire repitoire of in-game banters for your next game. Just something else to consider if you're tallying the pros and cons to Anomen vs. Keldorn...

[sonny]

I've just about made up my mind and I will post my decision

But one quick question. I know if I drop Anomen I can get him back, you guys already told me that. What about Keldorn? Can I get him back later if I drop him?

Thanks fable for letting me get through his ordeal

[anarchistica]

You can get everyone you let go back, except if you leave them at Spellhold (Imoen is the only one who can get back from there). Only in certain exceptional situations is an NPC gone for good, and they always state this in advance.

[Excalibur_2102]

in this situation Sonny, no i dont think you can get him back. Telling him to leave the party at any point in the adventure, then yes you can get him back, BUT at this point in his story line when he asks if he can go off with his familly, and you say yes, Im pretty sure you cant get him back.

[sonny]

OK everyone I've decided what I want to do about the Keldorn problem and since I ask for your advice I will share with you what I plan to do. But first if you guys will bear with me I would like to make a few comments

I'm sure I've said some of this before, so sorry for the redundancy. Every time I read the things you guys say in your replies, it amazes me how dedicated your are to this game and the passion you show when you discuss it. When you look at the join dates, that's extraordinary.
I'm sure we all read back over our replies (check spelling, etc.) but do we listen to what we are saying? You guys (myself included) talk about these game characters like they are real people. THAT IS JUST SO COOL. It's like we're discussing friends or co-workers.
I remember when I was playing BG1 and the first time my party members started talking. At first it startled me, and then I smiled and thought, " I'm not alone in this bad place, I've got friends with me. Weird?
One of the things I've tried to avoid doing is reading the threads, after reading one with a spoiler that ruined a little of the game for me in BG1. I remember CFM telling me to stop reading the threads until you've played through at least once. I look forward to when I've done that and can feel safe reading the threads, Not for the spoilers, but to read what you guys have said. Any way I'm starting to ramble, and I don't think that's a good thing. Just let me say, I'm glad my grandson told me about this game, I appreciate what all you guys do for the game, and I'm glad to be a small part of the BG family.

Now for Keldorn; I tried to look at this as if he is a real person.

1. Keldron failed as a husband and a father, depended on priest to help raise his family and servants to do the rest. It disturbs me that when he was in the city, he choose to stay in the guild and not with his family. But there's nothing me or my party can do to change any of that. It may be to late for him to make things right.
2. I think Anomen and Keldron are excellent fighters and even though they bring different things to the table, I think either one will serve me well. ALTHOUGH, reading between the lines of what some of you are saying, I have a feeling Keldron becomes a lot better later in the game.:mischief:
3. One of the things I enjoy the most in the game is the banter and by picking up Keldorn late, I think I may have missed a lot of that.:speech:

So I've decided to let Keldorn stay home and hopefully do right by his family. I will continue the game with Anomen, unless someone else comes along and starts the mind games again. I plan to get Keldorn, Anomen and Jan early when I play through again and let the banter fly.:laugh:

Since I still only know how to put one persons quote at a time into my reply, I wanted to use this one. Not because it's better then any other one, but because I believe it, because deep down I think Keldorn's a good man.

Keldorn promises (or threatens, depending on how you look at it) to keep an eye on you. He is definitely interested in what will happen in the future.

Thanks everyone for all the help and advice.
Will try to make shorter post next time.