1)Critical Strike: "This feat applies only to melee weapons" -- does that include lightsabers?
2)Critical Strike: "This feat lowers defense by -5 when used" -- my defense of my opponents'?
3)Flurry & Rapid Shot: Are these really worth it? It seems like the drawbacks far outweigh the benefits.
4)Power Blast: "Adds +5 to damage, but -3 to hit" -- how come I'll use this feat and still score only 1 damage sometimes?
Some feats questions:
Some feats questions:
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-- Jackie Robinson
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1) Yup, lightsabers are melee weapons.
2) No, its your own defence to offset your use of the skill as opposed to just using a normal attack. You make the attack that might cause more damage, but you're more open to attack because of it. Further levels lowers the penalty.
3) I always use Flurry with melee weapons. The amount of damage you can do with an extra attack far outdistances the damage you can do with either Power Strike or Critical Strike (in my opinion). The penalties may seem steep, but they are reduced with further feat upgrades, and they don't actually cause that much of a difference.
4) No idea, except that some enemies might have resistances?
2) No, its your own defence to offset your use of the skill as opposed to just using a normal attack. You make the attack that might cause more damage, but you're more open to attack because of it. Further levels lowers the penalty.
3) I always use Flurry with melee weapons. The amount of damage you can do with an extra attack far outdistances the damage you can do with either Power Strike or Critical Strike (in my opinion). The penalties may seem steep, but they are reduced with further feat upgrades, and they don't actually cause that much of a difference.
4) No idea, except that some enemies might have resistances?
If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.
3) The math proves that you will do more damage using power attack than flurry, unless you are a scoundrel with sneak attack. Sneak Attack can give flurry the edge in damage, but a scoundrel with Sneak Attack would do better using Critical Strike instead of Flurry.
At the beginning of the game, you might deal 7 damage with each weapon in your hand. That means you would deal about 14 damage when you attack.
Flurry, will only allow you to swing 1 of your weapons an extra time for a bonus 7 damage. That means you will deal 21 damage instead of 14. Flurry also adds a -4 to both your defense and chance to hit.
Power Attack will add +5 damage to each weapon in your hand, for a total of +10 damage when you attack. This means you will deal 24 damage instead of 14. Power Attack only adds a -3 to your chance to hit.
It looks like the difference between Power Attack and Flurry is pretty small, with Power Attack the better of the two. However, that changes come mid-game.
I don't think I am giving any spoilers, because I think the OP knows that you will eventually get to use force powers. There is a force power, called Master Speed, that adds two extra swings to your attack. A person wielding two weapons already gets to swing twice when they attack, and they swing two more times, for a total of 4 swings, if they are using Master Speed.
Master Power Attack will add 10 damage to each of your four swings, for a total of +40 damage when you attack.
Master Flurry will still only add one extra swing. You will swing 5 times, instead of 4, if you use Flurry. However, at this point, you will probably only be doing about 20 damage per swing. That means the one extra swing you get from using Flurry only add about +20 damage.
So come mid-game, Master Power Attack will be adding +40 damage when you attack, where as Master Flurry will only add +20.
Now come end-game, if you focus solely on strength and neglect your other stats, that extra swing from Master Flurry might deal +35 damage and be able to compete with Master Power Attack. Come end-game, mind you. It just doesn't look like Flurry can really compete with Power Attack in the potential department, without the Scoundrel's Sneak Attack adding bonus damage to that extra swing. However, Sneak Attack only works when you sneak up on the enemy or the enemy is stunned. Scoundrels with Sneak Attack will be better off using Critical Strike, as it provides a means to stun the enemy so that you can use Sneak Attack.
4) Perhaps, you are using normal attacks inbetween your Power Blasts. Perhaps, the skill is bugged. I never really use guns.
At the beginning of the game, you might deal 7 damage with each weapon in your hand. That means you would deal about 14 damage when you attack.
Flurry, will only allow you to swing 1 of your weapons an extra time for a bonus 7 damage. That means you will deal 21 damage instead of 14. Flurry also adds a -4 to both your defense and chance to hit.
Power Attack will add +5 damage to each weapon in your hand, for a total of +10 damage when you attack. This means you will deal 24 damage instead of 14. Power Attack only adds a -3 to your chance to hit.
It looks like the difference between Power Attack and Flurry is pretty small, with Power Attack the better of the two. However, that changes come mid-game.
I don't think I am giving any spoilers, because I think the OP knows that you will eventually get to use force powers. There is a force power, called Master Speed, that adds two extra swings to your attack. A person wielding two weapons already gets to swing twice when they attack, and they swing two more times, for a total of 4 swings, if they are using Master Speed.
Master Power Attack will add 10 damage to each of your four swings, for a total of +40 damage when you attack.
Master Flurry will still only add one extra swing. You will swing 5 times, instead of 4, if you use Flurry. However, at this point, you will probably only be doing about 20 damage per swing. That means the one extra swing you get from using Flurry only add about +20 damage.
So come mid-game, Master Power Attack will be adding +40 damage when you attack, where as Master Flurry will only add +20.
Now come end-game, if you focus solely on strength and neglect your other stats, that extra swing from Master Flurry might deal +35 damage and be able to compete with Master Power Attack. Come end-game, mind you. It just doesn't look like Flurry can really compete with Power Attack in the potential department, without the Scoundrel's Sneak Attack adding bonus damage to that extra swing. However, Sneak Attack only works when you sneak up on the enemy or the enemy is stunned. Scoundrels with Sneak Attack will be better off using Critical Strike, as it provides a means to stun the enemy so that you can use Sneak Attack.
4) Perhaps, you are using normal attacks inbetween your Power Blasts. Perhaps, the skill is bugged. I never really use guns.
Always remember you're unique ... just like everyone else.
Well, it works with the feat, but Lightsabers are Lightsabers and not Melee Weapons. The feat should have been better worded and read "Melee attacks" instead of "Melee weapons". Pretty much ditto for other melee feats other than the Melee Weapons proficiency line.Nightmare wrote:1) Yup, lightsabers are melee weapons.
Or they could have been using shields and your shot happens to breach the shielded total and the 1 point actually penetrated and hit? Almost no one uses blasters beyond level 3 or 4 I think.4) No idea, except that some enemies might have resistances?
And that's precisely why I asked.shift244 wrote:Well, it works with the feat, but Lightsabers are Lightsabers and not Melee Weapons. The feat should have been better worded and read "Melee attacks" instead of "Melee weapons". Pretty much ditto for other melee feats other than the Melee Weapons proficiency line.
"A life is not important, except in the impact it has on other lives."
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
I just made a spreadsheet after asking some questions in another thread, and assuming:
+10 damage from strength and feats (if this is high, correct me, I can edit it easily)
Master Speed is active
Solari and Upari are used in the lightsaber in the main hand
Firkrann and Sapith are used in the lightsaber in the off-hand (if applicable)
1 crit is a 5% increase in average damage before power attack
1 hit is a straight 5% increase in average damage
This spreadsheet includes comparisons between weapons and feats (16 combinations of each weapon setup - dual-bladed lightsaber, 2x lightsaber, lightsaber + short lightsaber, and 1x lightsaber compared with no feat, power attack, critical strike, and flurry - all at max rank).
A lightsaber in the main hand and a short lightsaber in the off-hand was the most powerful combination except for an attack where no feats are used with no ranks or the first rank of Sneak Attack (in that case it was a double-bladed lightsaber). In other words, for 42/44 combinations present, dual wield is the best (with a short sword in the off-hand) and in 2/44 it's a dual bladed lightsaber.
In ALL ranks of sneak attack, flurry was the most powerful feat (critical strike was second, power attack third) but without sneak attack critical strike is more powerful. You must factor in the attack penalty is virtually the same thing as a penalty to crit, so despite getting 10 extra damage, if you lose 15% from losing hits, it's not going to be the same as gaining 30% from critical strike.
I should also note that if you assume no Sneak Attack, and the above, the score I gave each (complex formula, but takes into account the damage, attack bonus, and crit chance of the effects) for long+short blade:
Power Attack - 170.275
Critical Strike - 172.35
Flurry - 171.9
So in 1 turn, you should only expect to see about 2.075 more damage from the highest to the lowest. When you look at it like that, for most people it really doesn't matter unless you're incredibly elitist like myself.
This difference widens severely as your ranks of sneak attack go up (so if you were really crazy and got a level 17 scoundrel before training as a jedi) you might see 20-30 damage between feats.
If anyone wants me to post the spreadsheet so they can use it and/or correct me, I will.
+10 damage from strength and feats (if this is high, correct me, I can edit it easily)
Master Speed is active
Solari and Upari are used in the lightsaber in the main hand
Firkrann and Sapith are used in the lightsaber in the off-hand (if applicable)
1 crit is a 5% increase in average damage before power attack
1 hit is a straight 5% increase in average damage
This spreadsheet includes comparisons between weapons and feats (16 combinations of each weapon setup - dual-bladed lightsaber, 2x lightsaber, lightsaber + short lightsaber, and 1x lightsaber compared with no feat, power attack, critical strike, and flurry - all at max rank).
A lightsaber in the main hand and a short lightsaber in the off-hand was the most powerful combination except for an attack where no feats are used with no ranks or the first rank of Sneak Attack (in that case it was a double-bladed lightsaber). In other words, for 42/44 combinations present, dual wield is the best (with a short sword in the off-hand) and in 2/44 it's a dual bladed lightsaber.
In ALL ranks of sneak attack, flurry was the most powerful feat (critical strike was second, power attack third) but without sneak attack critical strike is more powerful. You must factor in the attack penalty is virtually the same thing as a penalty to crit, so despite getting 10 extra damage, if you lose 15% from losing hits, it's not going to be the same as gaining 30% from critical strike.
I should also note that if you assume no Sneak Attack, and the above, the score I gave each (complex formula, but takes into account the damage, attack bonus, and crit chance of the effects) for long+short blade:
Power Attack - 170.275
Critical Strike - 172.35
Flurry - 171.9
So in 1 turn, you should only expect to see about 2.075 more damage from the highest to the lowest. When you look at it like that, for most people it really doesn't matter unless you're incredibly elitist like myself.
This difference widens severely as your ranks of sneak attack go up (so if you were really crazy and got a level 17 scoundrel before training as a jedi) you might see 20-30 damage between feats.
If anyone wants me to post the spreadsheet so they can use it and/or correct me, I will.
I am curious as to how you made a spreadsheet, because I wouldn't have expected you to know how much strength a character has endgame and how to calculate that in. I would factor in 30 strength. Which would add a bonus 10 damage to each hand.
I should point out that the Firkrann crystal does ion damage. Ion damage only effects droids. So your math will only count towards droid enemies and not people or animals. So instead of using the Firkrann crystal in your spreadsheet, you might want to use the Sigil or Opila crystals.
My math would look something like this:
Double-Blade with Solari/Upari
Flurry = 173.25
Power Attack = 178.6
2 Single-Blades with Solari/Opila and Opila/Upari
Critical Strike = 177.8
And those would be the best numbers for each attack feature, before calculating Sneak Attack. I'm not sure why your math says that a short blade in the off-hand provides the best damage output. (Edit: I think it is because you are saying that AB increases your damage.)
With level 4 Sneak Attack, the numbers would look like this:
Flurry = 243.25
Power Attack = 234.6
Critical Strike = 233.8
Keep in mind that this is high end-game damage and doesn't include mid-game or early-game fighting. In order for Flurry to reach these high numbers at the end of the game, it requires that you focus on strength and neglect your other stats, as well as, being lightside to use the Solari crystal, and have Sneak Attack. Even with Sneak Attack, the mid-game numbers would still put Power Attack as more damaging than Flurry.
I know the numbers above say that with Sneak attack, Flurry is more damaging than Critical Strike, but those numbers require that the enemy be stunned at all times so that each of your 5 hits with Flurry will activate Sneak Attack. The truth is that a person using Critical Strike will keep an enemy stunned more often and will be getting more Sneak Attacks off. So with Sneak Attack, Critical Strike is more damaging than Flurry, despite the above numbers.
And, when you think about it, a person who uses Flurry and Power Attack won't really have a method of stunning the enemy early and mid-game. So the bonus damage from Sneak Attack shouldn't even be counted at those points. At the second half of the game you can start using force powers to stun some enemies, but even then, Critical Strike would be a more reliable way of keeping the enemy stunned. This is especially true against bosses who will be resisting any stun from force powers, but will be vulnerable to stuns from Critical Strike.
I should point out that the Firkrann crystal does ion damage. Ion damage only effects droids. So your math will only count towards droid enemies and not people or animals. So instead of using the Firkrann crystal in your spreadsheet, you might want to use the Sigil or Opila crystals.
My math would look something like this:
Double-Blade with Solari/Upari
Flurry = 173.25
Power Attack = 178.6
2 Single-Blades with Solari/Opila and Opila/Upari
Critical Strike = 177.8
And those would be the best numbers for each attack feature, before calculating Sneak Attack. I'm not sure why your math says that a short blade in the off-hand provides the best damage output. (Edit: I think it is because you are saying that AB increases your damage.)
With level 4 Sneak Attack, the numbers would look like this:
Flurry = 243.25
Power Attack = 234.6
Critical Strike = 233.8
Keep in mind that this is high end-game damage and doesn't include mid-game or early-game fighting. In order for Flurry to reach these high numbers at the end of the game, it requires that you focus on strength and neglect your other stats, as well as, being lightside to use the Solari crystal, and have Sneak Attack. Even with Sneak Attack, the mid-game numbers would still put Power Attack as more damaging than Flurry.
I know the numbers above say that with Sneak attack, Flurry is more damaging than Critical Strike, but those numbers require that the enemy be stunned at all times so that each of your 5 hits with Flurry will activate Sneak Attack. The truth is that a person using Critical Strike will keep an enemy stunned more often and will be getting more Sneak Attacks off. So with Sneak Attack, Critical Strike is more damaging than Flurry, despite the above numbers.
And, when you think about it, a person who uses Flurry and Power Attack won't really have a method of stunning the enemy early and mid-game. So the bonus damage from Sneak Attack shouldn't even be counted at those points. At the second half of the game you can start using force powers to stun some enemies, but even then, Critical Strike would be a more reliable way of keeping the enemy stunned. This is especially true against bosses who will be resisting any stun from force powers, but will be vulnerable to stuns from Critical Strike.
Always remember you're unique ... just like everyone else.
Caden wrote:I should point out that the Firkrann crystal does ion damage. Ion damage only effects droids. So your math will only count towards droid enemies and not people or animals.
Are you sure about that? I admit I always thought that, but towards the end of my time playing the games I had started having second thoughts. Mainly re TSL, as it was when playing that that I could have sworn Ion damage was affecting all targets, but that did raise retrospective questions re KOTOR.
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And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
The Firkrann and Luxum crystals deal damage to droids and shields only.
Things may have changed in TSL, because it looks like some of the energy cells that you can put into your lightsaber have descriptions like this:
Dam: +1 Ion vs. Droid, Dam: +1-8 Ion, MC: 1-3
It has two sets of ion damage, one that specifically targets droids and one that doesn't. This leads me to believe that in TSL, Ion can effect people and droids. I'm not sure, I'm not an expert on TSL.
Still, the Firkrann and Luxum crystals only effect droids in Kotor 1.
It does look like the ion grenade has a base damage of 15 and then a bonus damage of 30 that effects droids only.
The Firkrann crystal adds 2-12 damage. That would make it just as powerful as the Solari crystal, except that it only works against droids. Heck, the Solari crystal only does as much damage, as it does, against dark-side enemies.
Things may have changed in TSL, because it looks like some of the energy cells that you can put into your lightsaber have descriptions like this:
Dam: +1 Ion vs. Droid, Dam: +1-8 Ion, MC: 1-3
It has two sets of ion damage, one that specifically targets droids and one that doesn't. This leads me to believe that in TSL, Ion can effect people and droids. I'm not sure, I'm not an expert on TSL.
Still, the Firkrann and Luxum crystals only effect droids in Kotor 1.
It does look like the ion grenade has a base damage of 15 and then a bonus damage of 30 that effects droids only.
The Firkrann crystal adds 2-12 damage. That would make it just as powerful as the Solari crystal, except that it only works against droids. Heck, the Solari crystal only does as much damage, as it does, against dark-side enemies.
Always remember you're unique ... just like everyone else.
Ion damage does damage to droids only. the reason you may think that they do damage to organics is because most weapons have a low base damage and an extra ion damage (for example 3-6 energy damage, 1-10 ion damage is a very generic ion blaster). It should also be noted that energy shields can't stand up to an ion blaster (I know it's "one of Carth's sayings", but I tested this and its true).
As to Flurry vs. Power attack, it has been proven many times over that power attack does more damage. however, I don't use it on anyone but Zallbar, as the animation is the worst in the game (in my opinion).
I always give my melee guys CS though. With a lightsaber with keen (or a weapon with a high critical) it is surprisingly effective (though its still not as good. It does add just a tiny bit of difficulty to the game)
all of the above has been refering to the first game
I beg to differ. I played a game with only blasters (had an STR of 8) and slaughtered everything. In the years since, I played only 1 lightsaber wielding player. It is way more fun (for me) and is actually much more effective.Almost no one uses blasters beyond level 3 or 4 I think.
As to Flurry vs. Power attack, it has been proven many times over that power attack does more damage. however, I don't use it on anyone but Zallbar, as the animation is the worst in the game (in my opinion).
I always give my melee guys CS though. With a lightsaber with keen (or a weapon with a high critical) it is surprisingly effective (though its still not as good. It does add just a tiny bit of difficulty to the game)
all of the above has been refering to the first game
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