porblems with a ring of wishes and the DM

shadow_blade · Post by **shadow_blade** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:10 am

hi
as some of you will know from my other thread that i am currently fighting Strahd von Zarovich we will killed him the first time but he used a ring of wishes with one charge left to wish " i wish none of this ever happend". then we killed him again and did exactly the same and i thought a wish is a wish not matter what the wish cannot come back. but Strahd used it a second time?
i need help with this matter so i can question the DM about what he has done with Strahd and the ring

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:53 am

The Ring of Three Wishes has, well, three Wishes in it. As far as I know, you can keep wishing the same thing over and over. However, giving the far reaching consequences of this particular Wish, I feel your DM is more or less cheating, insofar a DM can do that. Non-mentioned Wish effects are the domain of the DM, so he can make up what he wants.
It sounds like he's one of those power-hungry DMs that can't let go of a Villain. It happens all too often. Either he should have a more subtle way to "save" Sthrad, or he should give you guys the kill you're due.

So, to wrap it up: Your DM is cheating, but he's doing it by the book.

Possible solution: have an out-of-game conversation about it and mention it.

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:27 am

The DM isn't cheating at all. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a ring of three wishes to reverse combat back to where it just started.

You can't cheat by "doing it by the book." That doesn't make sense considering this isn't even a loophole, this is a written and easy to deal with function of the wish spell used entirely correct-like.

One of my final villains I did this, he had an item that gave him wishes (for reference, the efreeti bottle and he rolled within the noble wish granting efreeti range). He Used his three wishes as follows-

"I wish for the real book of vile darkness to appear in my hands now"

a few rounds later when he was being pummeled

"I wish all my wounds from today never happened"

And one round later due to how long the fight was going

"I wish I can use all my spells again for today"

The players were pissed, but because this was a villain I actually worked on, or at least one of the more detailed villains (much like Strahd), they understood my reasoning. Wishing for something to quickly give you the upper hand in battle, it's a little cheese, but it's far from cheating and far less powerful than a divine power/righteous might War and Strength Domain Cleric.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:52 am

Siberys wrote:The DM isn't cheating at all. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a ring of three wishes to reverse combat back to where it just started.

You can't cheat by "doing it by the book." That doesn't make sense considering this isn't even a loophole, this is a written and easy to deal with function of the wish spell used entirely correct-like.

The players were pissed, but because this was a villain I actually worked on, or at least one of the more detailed villains (much like Strahd), they understood my reasoning. Wishing for something to quickly give you the upper hand in battle, it's a little cheese, but it's far from cheating and far less powerful than a divine power/righteous might War and Strength Domain Cleric.

The DM sure can cheat. Since he is the DM, it will always be by the book. However, as a DM, there's a responsability to be fair to your players. They have limited resources, you don't.
Using Wish multiple times and one of those times wishing to get all your spells back would be less cheesy than a buffed up melee Cleric? I wonder what kind of ineffective caster that was. Besides, such a buffed up Cleric doesn't do anything else than spending at least one round buffing, using purely ( 4th and 5th level) spells as written, and he becomes a Fighter with bigger STR & HP, some DR and reach. Easily counterable. Solid Fog springs to mind. Wish is by itself one of the gamebreakers.
Also, I don't think that you've yet reached the levels by which it is common or fair to be pitted against opponents with 9th level spells at their disposal. I say this because a few weeks ago, you were still lvl 8.
For reference, here's what the SRD says about Wish. Your DM has stretched that description a bit, it seems. SRD - Spells T to Z Negating a whole battle? The spell suggests undoing the effect of ONE roll.

So, I fully understand the need to preserve a villain. I have to do it myself a lot for my players. But I think there are more subtle and less obstrusive/offensive methods than using two subsequent Wishes to do this when fighting a lvl 10-12 party. (Fill me in, just guessing the lvl from your earlier posts.) Suggest your DM to use Simulacra, or potent Illusions,(Like he did when he changed you to Sthrad) or make one of Sthrads lieutenants appear like him and let you guys kill the goon instead of the boss. Party happy with a defeated "big guy", and DM happy because the villain lives.

shadow_blade · Post by **shadow_blade** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:11 pm

our lvl are now:
4/5 rogue/assassin
4/5 monk/shadow dancer
8 wizard
8 cleric
5 ranger
6 fighter

we killed Strahd the first time in open combat with the sun sword and cut him down and with his last dieing breath he did that wish of "i wish this never happend" and we got put back to the start in carrage just as we were about to arrive at the castle and all of our magic items that we had gained in the castle go back to where they were and Strahd remembers everything that happend before. the second time we killed him was in the chapel and the cleric died causing the sunsword to explode and Strahd failed his save and died and with his last dieing breath he wish ""i wish this never happend" and we got put back to the start in the same situation. myself and the party and now feeling like killing our charracter because we are sick of Strahd von Zarovich and the adventure

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:08 pm

Well, that use of the Wish spell is very firmly in the custom field. But for S. to make that Wish with his dying breath, he should use an Immediate Action, while activating a magic item (The Ring of Wishes) is a Standard Action. In other words, he cheated. Furthermore, if S. wished for none of this to happen, he shouldn't remember anything either.
In your stead, I'd leave this campaign and make someone else DM.

blackadda · Post by **blackadda** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:01 pm

i think he made the wish earlyer but put the command word as i wish this had never happend also if our charactors never remembered but we id it would make things a lot more confusing

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:06 pm

Command Word activation still requires a Standard Action.

blackadda · Post by **blackadda** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:12 pm

do you know if some one else appart from the creater of the command word can activate it

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:28 am

Magic Item Basics :: d20srd.org

Yes, everybody can use a command word, if they know it.

shadow_blade · Post by **shadow_blade** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:06 pm

blackadda is the wizard of the party if you cant tell

and he feels very much the same about the dm decision with the ring. but we have come to conclusion that we will play it one more time and if he does it again we will be having talk with him about it.

Ribzlibz · Post by **Ribzlibz** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:12 pm

shadow_blade wrote:our lvl are now:
4/5 rogue/assassin
4/5 monk/shadow dancer
8 wizard
8 cleric
5 ranger
6 fighter

we killed Strahd the first time in open combat with the sun sword and cut him down and with his last dieing breath he did that wish of "i wish this never happend" and we got put back to the start in carrage just as we were about to arrive at the castle and all of our magic items that we had gained in the castle go back to where they were and Strahd remembers everything that happend before. the second time we killed him was in the chapel and the cleric died causing the sunsword to explode and Strahd failed his save and died and with his last dieing breath he wish ""i wish this never happend" and we got put back to the start in the same situation. myself and the party and now feeling like killing our charracter because we are sick of Strahd von Zarovich and the adventure

i think i see a problem: at -1 and below hit points, a character is unconcious. wouldnt this mean he is PHYSICLY UNABLE to say such a wish?

shadow_blade · Post by **shadow_blade** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:25 pm

yeah he was but he magically recovered hitpoints before he died and made a wish. i know vampire can regen but there is a limit to how quick

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:48 pm

There's also the fact that the instant a vampire goes into negative hit points, he turns gaseous and his body forces him to retreat to a haven. He doesn't get the regeneration until he is actually at the haven, whether it be a coffin or an area in the sewers or whatever.

Uller · Post by **Uller** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:32 pm

If the DM is going to repeatedly use wish to save a "villain" character he really needs to think about rewarding the characters xp for the encounter anyways.

Another thing to note is that "wishes" have limitations. Yes maybe he could wish himself back alive but it is using a magical item and if he is within melee combat it provokes an attack of opportunity (I thought) unless he has some sort of feat that allows this etc...

But if the DM is following his own set of rules and yet imposing another set of rules on the players (which he can after all he is the DM) movements and actions he has to be careful not to kill the sense of enjoyment and achievement by the players and their characters within the campaign.

A ring of wishes as a means to save a villain character in a campaign (to me) seems like a bit of a "cop out". If I was DM I would try and make the environment and abilities of the monster/villain in question work to my advantage and if the battle is going too easy for the adventuring party always have an escape route or utilise one of the creatures abilities to escape rather than a "cheesy" ring of wishes....and if the party managed to kill the "arch" villain easier than what you were hoping rethink the rewards the party gets. Difficulty to party should always be a good indicator as to what xp and what treasue (if any) the party is allowed.

After all the main reference book for the DM is called a DM's "Guide"...

Ribzlibz · Post by **Ribzlibz** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:33 pm

Siberys wrote:There's also the fact that the instant a vampire goes into negative hit points, he turns gaseous and his body forces him to retreat to a haven. He doesn't get the regeneration until he is actually at the haven, whether it be a coffin or an area in the sewers or whatever.

so unless he recovered the second he got hit, hed merely gassify and run away... that dm is evil and wrong...right?

shadow_blade · Post by **shadow_blade** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:05 pm

not really he is normally a really good and far dm as he has had lots of experience just with this villain he seems to be like this