Demi-gods, avatars, and nonsense.

Jhareth of house Noquar · Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:58 pm

You can have a great gaming experience in either a magic rich or magic deprived environment... I've played in a pnp campaign, in which I played a NG Ranger, starting at 1st level. The only magic we discovered before hitting 5th level were a couple of lesser potions... When I was 5th lvl, I got my first magic item, a +1 longsword. I didn't find a better weapon until 8th level, when I upgraded to a (oooh, get this!) +2 Longsword! This character finally got what could be considered a great weapon upon reaching 11th or 12th level, a +3 Longsword which can cast 'heal' once per day.
I've also played in heavy magic worlds, where my 3rd level assassin already has a few magic daggers, leather armor +2, Cloak of elvenkind, and boots of springing and striding! Both are valid.
In a pnp environment, a good DM can keep game balance in either setting. The computer gaming environ, as we have it in BG2, cannot change on the fly like a DM can, so I choose not to use the cheat console to import powerful items, nor do I plan on using a character editor or other tool to augment my character or equipment. Now, as far as stealing items which pre-exist in the game, I have no problems there! Why am I a thief, anyways?

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Your friendly neighborhood
Drow in Sunglasses,
Jhareth of house Noquar

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 3:33 pm

My last statements in this thread, but by all means, continue the discussion: Let me restate, I greatly enjoy the game, I don't knock it. A quick look at my equipment shows that I have exactly NO non-magical equipment. I am so gluttonously full of magic items that I regularly sell items as high as +5 without missing them (and I am less then halfway through the game.) In order for me to win a battle and consider the loot worthy, it must have godly powers. When the sequel or expansion pack comes, I will need to be dual wielding Thor's hammer, Poseidon's Trident, and come riding in on a Griffin to feel I have made further advancement. By contrast, if I had been making due with a few +1 implements, I would wet myself if I found something as mundane as Lilicar. The folks at TSR should know this, take a look at the quote above. Lets call it 'Weeping for there are no new worlds to conquer' syndrome. Wouldn't you be disappointed if Black Isle felt they could not release a follow up for this reason?

As for assigning values to Tolkein's characters and objects: an interesting read but I don't find them to have a basis in Tolkein's mythos as he created it. Gandalf had to give his very life to defeat a single Balrog - in BGII even Cernd could fake talk Firkragg into submission

filbert · Post by **filbert** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 4:13 pm

I enjoy threads like this becuase it really brings out the verbose folks who loved the nature of PnP roleplaying...

I agree that all of the roleplaying games I have played of late have been 'buffing' up on the items, sometimes at the expense of the content of the game. My two cents on the matter are I would like to see a game that took the complexity of character development that some PnP systems had, ARIA for example. That was an unbelieveable game system that had very clean rules...just very complex rules. I dream of a game where I can build my character from childhood into puberty into the character that actually qualifies for 'Hero of Trademeet' instead of killing some druid bimbo. The problem with a game of that kinda detail is most people would prolley get caught up in the details and either get sick of it, the complexity. Darklands was a really cool game becauase you got to choose careers before being a knight or cleric. Careers that influence their stats and personalities. If memory serves people didn't like it because it was too complex.

I think lots of people are addicted to Everquest because they can gain from it a sense of accomplishment that can be measured and compared to others. Perhaps their lives are not the most wonderful in real life, but in the game they can be a god. They can have respect from others by actions they directly take. That is only possible in an environment where every person has a virtual avatar that starts out equal.

I guess there will always be a disconnect between roleplayers that play with massive amounts of others for the community and those of us who rather live our lives in a more local community and be entertained by silly little roleplaying games. I for one love the worlds that have been built in countless books and developed by gaming companies. I just wish there was some way to make that into a game that I could play on my computer, in the background of my life when I just want to blow of some steam without the overhead of a virtual community.

That is probably why I read books more then I play computer games. More fufilling.

Hope that all made sense...

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 4:41 pm

Waverly: I know where you're coming from and I had the same thought myself. I think if there is a sequel it is likely to end with your characters ascension to godhood (replacing Bhaal?) and will be the last of the series although there could be more in the same world.

However, there are several problems with the statement, "Gandalf had to give his very life to defeat a single Balrog." First, Gandalf and the Balrog fell tens of thousands of feet together, the whole time battling eachother, but neither was killed by that or the fall and in the end Gandalf overcame so he didn't give his life.

Second, try wording it: "JUST to defeat a Greater Demon Lord," and you get close to the D&D equivalent. Yes, there were quite a few of them in the Silmarilion (First and Second ages were definitely high power environments!), but even then they were the greatest servants of Morgoth (greater than dragons).

Weasel: Sorry, but replaying BG1 to use the books multiple times definitely goes beyond powergamer to munchkin in my book. I considered doing it then rejected it for that reason. You're welcome to do it if you really find it enjoyable playing the game with a character with mostly 25's. It does make a lot of cool spells and items useless though (Holy Might, Belts, even Barbarian Rage mostly, etc)

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 4:45 pm

Yes I know your right.

But my high's number is 22. Even I thought 25's were to much.

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 4:50 pm

I know I said I was done on this topic, but I owe you an answer, Nighthawk. Gandalf does indeed die, but is sent back, "naked, I was sent back," presumably by a Valar to complete his task. Also note that the party does not recognise him, "Gandalf... that WAS my name" emphasis added, and his color is different. A very important change for a wizard. Try a quick web search to find about dozen different discussions on this topic. Now answer me this does a balrog truly have wings?? Hint: not an easy answer.

Got my terminology straight in the edit. Sorry for the confusion.

[This message has been edited by Waverly (edited 01-10-2001).]

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 4:52 pm

Yeah, I'm all upset because weilding Crom Faeyr makes my Barbarian's rage useless (Ch.6&7). Items are definitely more important than levels in BGII. Try starting out a new game, character at level 7, but give him the best weapons (cheating, but informative). You kick some serious *ss.

Sorry to get off topic, you just struck a chord as to the dominance of powerful weapons.

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 4:59 pm

Interesting points about Tolkien. As a Tolkien scholar, I always find it fascinating to hear others' views (others who have a clue anyway).

The point about Gandalf "giving his life" to kill a single Balrog is true...but misleading to compare to a dragon.

In LOTR & Silmarillion, Balrogs were Maia--or demi-gods come to Middle-Earth-- actually the same "race" as Gandalf. A Balrog by its nature is incomparably more powerful than a dragon of any kind. So, Gandalf "dying" in that match was less a measure of his power, and more of the relative equality (on some levels) of the combatants.

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I will drive my enemies before me, take their souls and listen to the lamentation of their women echo in the Cavern of Khazad-dum.

Wookie · Post by **Wookie** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:09 pm

The problem is that BG2 is a game that has to appeal to the masses just like any other. Most people wouldn't be happy trudging round with a +1 short sword for 90% of the game, and Black Isle wouldn't make any money on it.

It's a long time since I've played PnP AD&D, but to play properly back then you needed to buy DM's Guide, Players Handbook, Monster Manual (1 and 2), I'm sure there was another useful handbook as well but I forget it's name, die, a dungeon or two and if you play like we did a number of lead figures. I paid £24.95 for BG2, to get everything I'd need now to play PnP would probably cost £100-£150. PnP is for dedicated gamers who don't mind spending a couple of weekends trudging round a dungeon where the most powerful thing they get to fight is a Hill Giant or maybe a Fire Giant, and the most powerful magic item they get their hands on is a +1 short sword and some +2 leather armour.

In all the time I played PnP, I never had a single character resurected after it died, that was the luck of the game, you stayed and watched your friends carry on, or you went home and rolled up a new character for the next time a 1st level dungeon came around. In BG2 every map it seems has a Resurections'R'Us temple. The first time through BG2, I had to resurect Aerie 4 times, but I still had her with me at the end of the game. That's called appealing to the masses, not to the dedicated gamer.

Wookie

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:09 pm

Umm...Gandalf IS a Maia (Istari are a special group of Maia). After his battle with the Balrog, which he slew and threw down from a mountain top, he was picked up (again) by Gwauhir. I've heard the view he died there and is a sort of Christ figure, but having read LOTR more times than I can count I still don't buy it.

I'll have to look for the details on that quote, though it's clear he returned to the undying lands briefly. His color was changed as he was now the leader of the Istari, taking the place of the corrupted and defeated Saruman and being permitted to use more of his power openly. Gandalf was just one of many names he had, the hobbits name for him...Mithrandir was his name to the elves and his name in the West (true name?) was Olorin.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:13 pm

Cernd fake talking a dragon was mostly a joke, as is Cernd. I vow to kill him if I attempt an evil quest.

That Gandalf dies is a fact. It is my opinion that Gandalf would have been an Maia, not a Valar. Correct me if I am wrong, but the same would go for the Balrog or Dragon. In fact, (back to facts) Sauron was 'only' an Maia. Melkor, Sauron's mentor, was the Valar, and as such it explains why the greater monstrosties such as balrogs would do his bidding, while they seem indifferent to Sauron. Raise you hand if I am boring you

[This message has been edited by Waverly (edited 01-10-2001).]

Point remains the balrogs and dragons are both Maia - the default answer as to what any of the more powerful creatures actually are.

[This message has been edited by Waverly (edited 01-10-2001).]

Wookie · Post by **Wookie** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:16 pm

For all you Tolkien fans, about a mile up the road from where I live is a house with a plaque on the front of it that reads "J.R.R. Tolkien, author of Lord of the Rings lived here.". About 2 miles away is another plaque on the front of a modern building marking where the huose he was born in used to be.

Wookie

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:19 pm

The Istari are a group of five Maia
1) Saruman the White (S. The Traitor)
2) Olorin (mithrandir, gandlaf, grey pilgrim, white rider, the grey, etc)
3)Radagast The Brown (R. The Bird Tamer, R. The Simple)
4 & 5) Allatar and Palando (The Blue Wizards)

Sauron was not an Istari, but yes he was a Maia. That clear it up?

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:21 pm

@ wookie

You're in Africa?

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:23 pm

Right indeed. My mistake. Valar are the greater gods, followed by Maia of which Istari are a subset. Serves me right for trying to go in depth without fact checking. Substitute Valor for Maia and Maia for Istari in my previous post and I will stand by it

Wookie · Post by **Wookie** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:29 pm

Foul

No, I'm in Birmingham in UK, where Tolkien lived most of his life. His family still live round here, they regularly have one of them (his son or grandson I think) on the local TV.

Wookie

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:31 pm

Wookie:
Tolkien wasn't born in the UK. He was born in Blonfontein, South Africa. This place lying to try and capitalize on this?

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:32 pm

no wait, maybe he was born in uk then immediately left......too long at work, I go home now, thanks all for the discussion, be back in 20 hours (or ten)

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:32 pm

As far as the question of wings goes, this should answer it:

"You cannot pass," he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the shadow! You cannot pass."

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

Wookie · Post by **Wookie** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:40 pm

Foul

No, you are right, he was born in SA, maybe the second place I was thinking of is just another where he lived or where his parents lived before they moved to SA. I've only been past it a couple of times, but the plaque definitely mentions his name and something to do with birth.

Wookie