Kensai > Thief - Overpowered or not?

restless · Post by **restless** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:54 pm

Hello all. Here's the deal. I have played through BG1/2+tob before, but that was years ago, and now I am installing it again to run through the whole trilogy(with tutu). This time around I am planning to increase the difficulty by installing SCS and SCS II, as well as various minor difficulty increasing mods that wont conflict, but not tactics. Note that I will be running a party-game, not solo.

My current plan is to roll a Dual classing Kensai > Thief, but I am worried it might be too strong. It seems widely considered to be incredibly strong to the point of being overpowered. Am I shooting myself in the foot regarding wanting challenge if I go this way, even though I use difficulty enhancing mods?

I mainly want this class for its ability to backstab, have some thief abilities, while maintaining some of the THAC0 of a Fighter(planning to dual at level 9), and not to equip items that feel out of place. I'd likely stick to Katana's/Longswords, dualwielding and leather armor.

What exactly makes the combination so strong? Is it fine if you dont go out of your way to abuse UAI to equip things like Carsomyr and Staff of the Magi and spamming traps?

Is the class fine and balanced if I impose rules on myself as to not use UAI for incredibly strong items, not place millions of traps around, and not hoard scrolls like Black Blade of Disaster?

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:39 pm

There are far more overpowered characters playable, like mage, bard or sorcerer.

anarchistica · Post by **anarchistica** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:25 am

I played a K/T in a party including Jan and Haer'Dalis (plus Anomen, Jaheira and Keldorn). I used the Big Metal Unit too. As far as i can tell, and i'm never use scrolls, it's a bit too easy with the Metal Unit and slightly too easy without. Traps are powerful but considering that i can kill Demogorgon with 3 Spike Traps or about as many Whirlwinds suggests they're not overpowered. Just don't use them on Demogorgon and Tree of Life Irenicus and you're fine i guess. Now rule out scrolls, the Big Metal Unit and perhaps Carsomyr and it's probably perfectly balanced. Than again, i'm not a very good player so that might just be me.

If you're looking for overpowered things, try a Sorceror, Weimer's Valen or Cernd with fixed Shapeshifter abilities (Greater Werewolf regenerates 3 HP/second).

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:44 am

first K/T

I'm playing my first Kensai-Thief and dualled at level 12 - I'm not finding it at all over-powered - my AC is only a modest -4 or so (when not given spirit armour by a helpful mage), I can't use the gloves etc that a thief uses, no armour at all seems available and I'm level 19/20 thief now, but in BG2 and no HLAs.
I use longsword/katana - for undead I use Daystar and the rest Arga +4 - I use CF even though it is only +3 - the stun effect outweighs its lack of potency. I have **** in ls and kats with ** in 2 weapon style.

you can use the crimson dart +3 as a ranged weapon for some reason.

Lonelypilgrim · Post by **Lonelypilgrim** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:15 am

As others have pointed out, kensai - thief is not that much overpowered as it might seem at first glance (refering to Celacena).

The overpowered choise is to pick kensai - mage, as the item limitations are easily ignored and you can still wear robes. You can shield yourself from harm (globe of invunerability, spell shield, spell reflection, stoneskin, mirror image etc) and blast mage spells afar or whack your enemies close and personal.

Aoshi99 · Post by **Aoshi99** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:00 am

Kensai(9)->Thief is one of the most powerful classes in BGII (both SoA and ToB). Take a look on these screenshots...

ImageShack - Hosting :: ultrakilldx6.png
210 hp with one single hit!

ImageShack - Hosting :: drizztkilledpm5.png
Drizzt backstabbed

ImageShack - Hosting :: godlikespeedoa2.png
8 attacks/round (with improved haste)

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:51 am

So how did you get 210 with one backstab? What weapon was your PC using, and what spells were on him/her? In the interests of separating out the intrinsic power of a given class combo, from the items and spells that artificially turbo charge them.

Aoshi99 · Post by **Aoshi99** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:37 am

"Celestial Fury" and "Belm" (dual-wield). This can be seen on the bottom of the screenshot. In order to get max damage I've used the "Kai" ability (which grants a critical hit when backstabbing). Awesome, isn't it? I love this class. If using better equipment (which increases your strength beyond the limit of 18/xx) or dual-classing later (ToB) you can easily deal 300-400 damage!

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:13 pm

I personally do not think it's overpowered. Sure, you'll have some cool moments, like backstabbing for an ungodly amount of damage, and you'll have a very good AC after getting the HLA "UAI" (assuming you have ToB installed).

But you know what? A F/T multiclass is better.

You'll get a better THAC0, you'll have better saves (especially if you choose a short race), and the extra backstab damage is NOT NEEDED! Sure, it looks cool, but a high level thief, with or without Kai will kill just about anything on a successful backstab.

And with a higher THAC0 from the much higher Fighter levels, your backstabs will hit more often.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:26 pm

Actually the Kensai/Thief has a much better THAC0 than the Fighter/Thief, if you dual to a thief late that is.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:33 am

I dualled at 12 - was that optimal?

I'm in SoA at level 22 or 23 and haven't got any HLAs - I can't remember if they don't start until ToB or if I'm just not powerful enough yet.

Backstab under Kai does produce a lot of damage - I use CF too because of the stun effect - I have **** in katana and ** in single weapon. 19 STR after Lum's machine.

sometimes I use daystar, but I've mentioned my variable weapon choice - depending on expected encounters - Daystar, Argvl+4, Staff of the Ram, CF etc

My innate AC is around -3 but I have a mage cast spirit armour on me every so often. getting de-buffed in a fight can be risky though.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:13 pm

You start gaining high level abilities at three million experience points.

Well, I like to get the most out of a "lost level" so I would have dualed to a thief at fourteen. By dualling at twelve, you also missed out an an extra half attack per round which you would have gotten next level.

Usually, I dual at level 25, which leaves me 27 thief levels.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:29 am

Crenshinibon wrote:Actually the Kensai/Thief has a much better THAC0 than the Fighter/Thief, if you dual to a thief late that is.

I thought THAC0 stopped advancing at level 20 for all characters. I see that you dual at level 25, but I'd venture to guess that most people don't have that kind of patience.

Now, maybe I could be convinced that dual classes were better than multi classes, if the stupid Grandmastery wasn't nerfed. But it was.

thebannedone · Post by **thebannedone** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:41 am

Kensai's thac0 and damage bonus of +1 for every 3 levels keeps on going until lvl 40, so you get a better damage, thac0 and a 2 better ac with a dual class kensai/thief than a fighter/thief multiclass. But if you choose a race like dwarf or halfling you get much better saving throws, slightly increased moving speed, always "useful" infravision, you get hla's sooner and more of them, you can use thief abilities right away, you can use armor right away and not have to start the thief class from lvl 1 when you dual class and get it to lvl 26 if planning to dual the kensai at lvl 25, before you can use the kensai abilities again. So for most people playing a multiclass fighter/thief would be much easier for most part of the game than a dual class kensai/thief, especially if you dual the kensai at lvl 25, but when both are maxed out then kensai/thief i'd say is the more capable one. So i dont consider it a overpowered combo, and its more challenging to play especially for the first time than a fighter/thief.

anarchistica · Post by **anarchistica** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:41 am

Klorox wrote:Now, maybe I could be convinced that dual classes were better than multi classes, if the stupid Grandmastery wasn't nerfed. But it was.

There are patches that address this problem...

Saros · Post by **Saros** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:19 am

There is a GM tweak in the SCSII mod I think. Check it. It's worth it and I think it is rebalancing for the fighters.