PC vs. PC battle for supremacy - ends speculation once and for all

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 5:26 pm

Pat, GB, you can't let this gat personal.

Or Grunt will eat you alive.

I've been there.

I enjoy the forum too much to see people getting upset over posts.

There are too many quotes to respond to in this page. I won't even try quoting.

Once again, it all depends on the player. End of story.

Once again, contingincies would not matter against an assassin. I do not debate nor deny a stoneskin spell would matter. I was talking about those pretty contingincies that all go off after I have downed a mage in one shot. And I am well aware I can't backstab through stoneskins. Why would I try? Though many things do get through stoneskin to disrupt spells. To assume you're safe from the Gesen bow (one of many weapons) just because you have stoneskins on would be foolish.

Once again, an assassin is indeed at a disadvantage. He is geared at attacking an unprepared foe. Unprepared. Duels put assassins at a disadvantage, since your mage would definitely prepare.

You have mentioned that you can repeatedly cast stoneskin. These last 12 hrs. Thus our fight may last three days, but in that case an assassin would have a good chance to win. Yes I can hide. No you can't find me without risking setting off traps. Yes you can summon creatures to set off traps for you. That takes away from your spells. You still have a limited number of spells. I have an unlimited number of backstabs and patience. Remember, I could summon creatures as well. Horn of Valhalla, Efereet (sp?) Bottle, etc.

If there is a time limit, I lose. If not, I win.

Of course you would unexpectedly counter many of my strategies and I would do the same to yours.

Remember, none of this is meant as a personal attack. We are talking strategy. I would bet you are better with a sorceror than I, and I'd consider myself an expert, at this point in my playing career. While a sorceror is powerful and my favorite spellcaster (besides a Cleric of Helm dualled to a mage), it is not the end all be all of classes. Mages have weaknesses. Their spells run out. Even sorcerors.

@ Grunt- BTW, it's good to see you in these debates again, GB. It's comforting to know the jarhead hasn't changed sides. Not that I thought you ever could.

[This message has been edited by Rail (edited 03-02-2001).]

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 7:24 pm

I agree totally with Rail. Very well said indeed.

We should try not to let this get to personal either. We all believe passionately that our characters are really impressive and can beat any character in the game, but in reality, they all have weaknesses and are not totally unstopable.

Gruntboy: While I like your suggestions for each class being able to beat the sorcerer, remember that these just aren't any sorcerers, like Pat Bou said, he'd have 4 mordenkainen's swords all hastened and charging down on you, so the mustard jelly wouldn't be the wisest of options here. It requires a lot of thought to beat someone like this. It can be done though. Rail said some very good points about the thiefs infinite patience and backstabs. This undoubtedly would give the assassin a very big advantage. Even with all those stoneskins, they'd eventually wear off. As well as their patience.

I'm starting to think that no one class is better than the other. I've read a lot of things over the last couple of days and am very impressed with everyone's ability to use these characters in very unusaual and powerful ways. To say the sorcerer would beat an assassin without much trouble is as foolish as saying the opposite. We aren't dealing with buggy AI controlled characters here, we've got thinking, learning human minds at the helms and it has devastating outcomes. (for the characters and our egos!)

Personally Pat, I would be very interested in your strategy for countering what rowdin said. If you still want to share it, I know there are those of us who are interested.

I jumped into this thread to try and introduce some other ideas and hopefully persuade people that the monks or sorcerers weren't as godly as one might think. I've come out realising that my assassin isn't as godly as I like to think.

I hope the discussion continues. Just as long as we all don't take it too personally, I think we can really have something here. Who knows, maybe either bioware of TeamBg will pick this idea up and give it life.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 7:50 pm

You don't have to wait for Pat.

Mage (or Sorcerer) vs. Clerics (or Inquisitor): it has been already mentioned, that a mage (especially a Sorcerer) could block the higher level dispel magics with Spell immunity: Abjuration.
Assassins: I agree that they are not the best in "solo" duels, but they can be deadly in team fight.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:22 pm

In the other topic someone mentioned a spell trigger that had the ruby ray, breach, and the warding whip.
It would be a serious strike as it would even disable Magi (if the target became visible for a moment). The only problem is that a "Spell trigger" can contain up to 6th level spells (no Ruby Ray and Wardning Whip) and Chain Contingency cannot be used (as we agreed to omit 9th level spells).
But the important idea behind that, is that a Mage can utilize such sequences in advance and after another sleep, memorize different spells. This possibility has to be considered with duel setup.
And we also have to discuss what kind of spells are allowed in continencies/triggers (eg. is it allowed to pack three sunfires).

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:13 pm

I think we cannot discussed short bow of Gesen yet. It has similar advantage like the Flail of Ages: the electrical damage cannot be catched by stoneskin. But, there are serious differences!
The Flail of Ages could be used faster (with haste) and have three different type of damage (4x3 per round). A Gesen could cause only 3(?)x1 damage per round, so it doesn't necessarily disrupt fast spellcasting (Vecna). And those 3 damages can be "catched" even with Mirror Image (not to mention a protection from electricity spell/scroll).
Another difference is that the Flail of Ages is melee weapon. In case of Gesen, when some summoned monsters reach the archer, he has to switch to melee or suffer serious AC penalties.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 2:56 am

Cheers Rail. I think the fact this and other threads have gone on for several pages proves it isn't over yet.

Sure, sorcerer's are powerful. But so are the other classes. They all have weaknesses. The sorcerer's main one being a limited number of spells to choose from. Whereas a mage could have just about one of every spell memorised for all situations - a sorcerer has, what, 4 per level? Sure they can cast more of them but there are going to be serious shortcomings when someone comes up with something you haven't thought of.

As for staff of magi/cloak of mirroring etc, these are poor atguments for 2 reasons.

1) Both players *could* have them
2) What happened to PB's "money" idea. Also, what levels? I reckon a level 9 fighter (as above) with good magic/charm etc. protection and decent HP could slice'n'dice a sorcerer at the cap.

As rail said, spells wear off, spellcasters must rest. the nano-second your stoneskins go or you fall asleep, Rail is slipping a poison dagger in your back

And I'm not denying spellcasters aren't powerful. There are 2 sides to every coin.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:23 am

Staff of Magi/Cloak of mirroring: of course it is not about sorcerers (though Magi can be used only by mages). Anyway I vote for leaving out both of them (or for the Magi at least disallow the re-equip).

I found very interesting the idea to battle with money and xp limit. Actually I found it controversial in solo play that one can soon reach xp cap and get the best weapon, which makes any lower level strategy consideration less important.

Sorcerer vs mage. Well, again, these facts have been told many times. Any mage have to memorize the spells before the battle, so they couldn't use "more" spells than a sorcerer. A wise sorcerer learns a "complete" set of spells and a mage should also memorizes such, to succeed in a "free" PC-to-PC battle. Still I admit that the mage could have some advantage if he knows in advance whom he would fight (the type of enemy and the his strategy).

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:39 am

Originally posted by Kovi:
I think we cannot discussed short bow of Gesen yet. It has similar advantage like the Flail of Ages: the electrical damage cannot be catched by stoneskin. But, there are serious differences!
The Flail of Ages could be used faster (with haste) and have three different type of damage (4x3 per round). A Gesen could cause only 3(?)x1 damage per round, so it doesn't necessarily disrupt fast spellcasting (Vecna).

Just a side note. While flail of ages does have three heads, they all go off at impact. So, it still depends on the number of attacks when trying to disrupt spells, though fat chance with fast spell casting, as you pointed out.
Also, flail of ages does 3 pts of damage (1 fire, 1 cold, 1 acid), the Gesen bow does 1-8 pts electrical damage. The bow *is* easier to protect against, though, and don't overlook the flail's chance of slow spell on contact. Very powerful, that slow ability!

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:53 am

Heh, I just tried out a Solo Jester at the final battle and it was really cool!

Simply turn invisible and play your funky tunes... they'll slow and go unconcious! Very very handy! Then simply whack the hell out of them.

Big disadvantage with the crappy THAC0 though, and the fact that there is a limited number of invisibility potions and spell slots. But still, someone who shouldn't be laughed at... er, though being a jester... um...hmmmm.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 5:55 am

Flail of Ages (and Gesen): we were discussed the disruption of spellcasting (even through stoneskin). The inflicted damage doesn't matter and even the slow has less importance (spellcasting is not slowed).

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 6:47 am

for the last few days i've been playing with
a stalker celric, and to my suprise he can use valygars armour if you have the same stats and alignment. which gives you 25% resistance to magical damage,on top of that
if you add the spell armour, of faith, and the
belt off Inertial Barrier, at cap he has 95%
resistance to magical damage which can not be dispelled by lower resistance, I think .(If i,am wrong let me know ) if you add fire resistance, death ward, chaotic commands, how are you going to hurt me. I,am still a higher ranked spell caster than you 9,19
i,ve got more spells than you, including iron skins and all of the druid spells.has well has stealth. how if you did spell immunity apart from the fact you can't cast some of your own spells now (again if i,am wrong tell me i,am not up on d&d rules)how are you going to see me.Also my combat ability is alot better than yours and my spells can breach your skins. and i can summom all of the elementals just for fun. to be the best you cannot have weakness, a good general will find them and kill you. i think the best alround pcs in the game are
the monk with all of the wands.
the stalker celric.
and the berserker celric. not a pure blooded
mage, well not until level 40 that is.
yours rowdin.

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 7:25 am

my mistake immunity does'nt stop you from casting your own spells. see i've learned something about d%d, yours rowdin.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 7:54 am

Rowdin, I don't know to whom you address the previous post. I guess you want answer from a sorcerer.

First let's see the stalker/cleric. The ranger/cleric is a very strong character. Dual wield ability and druid spells. Both fighting and summoning abilities are excellent and it has some devastating option against undead and one other race (racial enemy). These make him probably the absolute best for solo game (even if we exclude the exteme Insect Plague spell as per the "hardcore rule"). I have to tell though, that the stalker seems a little odd to me, an early dualed (you said 9th level) stalker can get only 2x backstab and no mage spells.

As for the defences: Armor of faith can be aggregated, so even a normal cleric could achieve 100%. And the cleric could cast a lot of other protections/enhancements on self. Let us leave out Belt of Inertia, as that is available for any character (anyway it is the best belt in my opinion).

So back to the arena. If the sorceror (or mage) cast dispel/remove magic it has a very low chance because of his lower level. So, what could he do?

Well, a Breach spell could remove most of the protections (but not the enhancements). And if you cast Shield of Archon (which would catch Breach), even a mid-level Secret Word would eliminate that protection.

On the other hand, the high level dispel magic won't work on the mage if he casts spell immunity: abjuration. Another problem: the cleric has no remove magic, so he should be careful when he is near to the mage, not to dispel his own protections.

These doesn't mean that the sorcer would surely win. The fighting abilites of the ranger/cleric are (much) better, the summoning abilites are similar, while the mage is probably better with the strong magics. You see, the ranger/cleric is one of the best solo classes even for a duel.

[This message has been edited by Kovi (edited 03-03-2001).]

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 8:22 am

the reason for level 9 dual is so the can get to level 19 at the cap.if you multiclass you can,t get past 12,14 at the cap.and i,ve got more spells then him so he can breach all he wants. But i,ve only been playing with him for a couple days so i'am still finding out what he can do. ( and i also think he's the best).yours rowdin

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 8:35 am

I understand the 9th level dual with the Stalker. Nevertheless I think that a normal ranger/cleric (9/20) is slighly better with "any armor" and more spells (on the 3rd, 5th, 6th level). The 2xbackstab is nice, but doesn't make a difference and a ranger/cleric is actually too strong to rely on such ability.

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 8:47 am

thanks kovi i did,nt know the ranger had more spells. the reason for using a stalker was for the stealth, which i thought it might be fun and when level 40 rules come out i will go up in level for the stalker. but i,am finding it hard to get a weapon that can backstab do you know of one.yours rowdin.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 9:01 am

It is the cleric which know more spells on level 20 than on level 19. The ranger should be dualed at level 8 (sorry for the mistake).

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 10:45 am

Yes, crushing weapons are rarely used for backstab. As I remember to some articles probably the staff-mace can be used for backstab (never tried though).

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 9:24 pm

I used clubs to backstab with a cleric thief. Those should work. Gnasher +2 was best for me.

I think having it in the pit ar the Copper Coronet would severely hurt certain characters, such as the archer and the bounty hunter, for examples, while it makes it much better for the berserker or barbarian, who aren't much for ranged combat. How about having it in the Promenade "arena", cleared of people? Maybe in the whole complex of the Copper Coronet. Just a thought. Inside the CC could be interesting, due to the mix of tight quarters and open spaces.

PS- I like the stalker/cleric option. You can still wear the shadow dragon armor (not much worse than any other armor in the game), and you get stealth, backstab ( though not well), and haste abilities. Pretty good trade off, overall, IMHO.

Alison Entreri · Post by **Alison Entreri** » Sun Mar 04, 2001 12:40 am

Has anyone considered the effect of Blackrazor in a Duel??

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