PC vs. PC battle for supremacy - ends speculation once and for all

two · Post by **two** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:01 pm

I don't know if this has been discussed yet, I searched old posts and didn't find anything so: here goes. Sorry if it's redundant in advance.

Is it possible using multiplayer to find out once and for all what character class is strongest (normal ex. cap)? For example have two different players pit a 21 level monk vs. 17/9 level mage/fighter. Then have the winner fight a 23 level bard, winner fights a barbarian etc. See who is tops. Hell, bracket it like a college basketball tournament.

One on one, in a big place like the Promenade, no cheats or imported weapons, typical high but not crazy stats, with "typical" BGII stuff for the level. How about best of 5 wins? First the Monk vs. the Sorcerer, winner fights the Druid, etc.

If it is not clear which is stronger (changing tactics changed outcome) fight best of 10 or 20, odds will diminish the fluke outcomes if you do it enough. It may be that some battles just come down to luck. Or it may be that some classes are clearly overwhelmed. I can also see how some battles might never end with best possible play, i.e. mage goes invisible, can't be hit, fighter waits, mage appears tries something, does not work, goes invis, waits, etc.

A good experiment. I have never done multiplayer so I can't comment on if this is even possible. Is it? Has it been tried?

What was the outcomes if so?

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:10 pm

Interesting idea! I'm quite new here, so I don't know whether it was ever tried out. But I see that, topics like fighter/mage vs. monk and sorcerer vs ranger/cleric are still hot.
I see one (serious) problem: many of the best spells work on enemies. The question: how to make the two character enemies of each other.

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:10 pm

Well, just from my experience at soloing different characters. I am almost 100% sure that at max level for all char. A well designed sorcerer wielding the staff of magi is the strongest char if they have all thier spells ready. Monk would come in a distant second.

two · Post by **two** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:16 pm

I guess I'm confused about the Monk vs. Sorcerer battle, at level 21 the Monk has got nearly 100% magic resistance so how bad could the Sorcerer be? He could summon a lot of monsters but the monk could either ignore them and attack the sorcerer or just back peddle some, kill the elementals/demons one by one, etc. At some point the sorcerer will run out of spells I assume and then it's Tensor's Transformation vs. Monk, that could be interesting.

Again, has anyone actually done it?

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:25 pm

You forget something Two..the sorcerer has access to the spell "lower resistance" and the other spell that screws up your saving throughs "greater maliason". While the monk is happily beating up his monsters cast a few of theses on him they follow up with anything you feel like..perhaps feeblemind?, or maybe polymoph other? hmm what else now that i've lowered his resistance to below 0...how about finger of death....

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:57 pm

For head to head fight I would also bet on the sorcerer against anything. Even if use the "hardcore rules" (keep xp cap, no (ab)use of project image/simulacrum).

two · Post by **two** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:07 pm

I just wondered why nobody has actually done it to see if it works. To end the speculation. If I knew how to multiplayer I would do it myself.

And remember that you can't pause in the middle of combat I don't think? when using multiplayer?? Can you? HOw does time work in multiplayer? So the invis/pause/cast spell/pause/invis thing with the staff of the magi won't fly? Or will it? If your sorcerer becomes visible to cast spells he's visible to be whopped with stunning blow/quivering palm. Or maybe a sequencer will blast through all magic resistance. Or maybe the Monk quaffs a simple invis. potion and becomes untargetable for a few moments. Or wears a cloak of reflection (does this reflect lower resistance)? Who knows? The point is there is a way to find out.

Now I'm honestly curious.

Kane · Post by **Kane** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:49 pm

GENESIS If the monk is wearing the amulet of power,how are you going to level drain him?
In an open arena your main problem is keeping a hasted,boots of speed wearing Monk away from you.Because once he gets a hold on you its all over!!

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I am....Kane

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:51 pm

This won't work.

A big advantage for sorceror is staff of the magi and invisibility. It is not possible to use invisibility effectively in multiplayer (which is how the sorceror would win over the monk - get invisible at will and then storm the guy with hasted mordenkainen's swords. Also, it is not possible to pause the game, which is a requirement for any spellcaster.

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:26 pm

hmm we could all speculate on how not being able to pause would cause all kinds of problems for a spell caster but i'm certain with my staff and robe of vecna...remember monks cannot detect improved invis...i can merely walk a few paces away whip up cast sphere of chaos or teleport field...(here comes the monk barrelling at me) i grab my staff he cannot see me. (he goes stealth perhaps) i cast true sight (he comes barrelling towards me again) i grab my staff i'm invis (meanwhile teleport field or sphere of chaos are trying to get him) he desides not to right being desintegrated moved out of the sphere or chaos..i wait a sec let loose my spell trigger of 3 "lower resistance" at him his magic resistance drops from 90 to 39..(he come barrelling towards me again) he tries to hit quivering palm on his way (if hes lucky he lives though the sphere of chaos with his lowered magic resistance) I grab my staff he tries to run out of my spere of choas before he dies..I wait a sec, cast another sphere of chaos around myself...remember i cast really fast ...i could go on but basically becos i can become invis at while and a monk has no way of detecting it he would lose since i can wither his magic resistance down and kill him with one finger of death spell. I'm not saying a monk could not win the fight but he would have to be really lucky

BTW amulet of power will prevent level drain but then a sorcerer does not level drain anyone...(i aint no vampire) so what was that comment about...feeblemind, polymorph, and finger of eath are not level draining spells

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:29 pm

Originally posted by Kane:
GENESIS If the monk is wearing the amulet of power,how are you going to level drain him?
In an open arena your main problem is keeping a hasted,boots of speed wearing Monk away from you.Because once he gets a hold on you its all over!!

first off...monks cannot be hasted so boots of speed or haste spells are a waste...he will still move at his own regular speed. Second amulet of power only protects you from vampires not sorcerers...third a monk would have to be really lucky since they cannot see invis or cast any spells that would allow them to see invis to "grab a hold of a mage"...One last thing a sorcerer can cast certain spells while remaining invis...such as mordakainain sword.

two · Post by **two** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:56 pm

Originally posted by Genesis:
hmm we could all speculate on how not being able to pause would cause all kinds of problems for a spell caster but i'm certain with my staff and robe of vecna...remember monks cannot detect improved invis...i can merely walk a few paces away whip up cast sphere of chaos or teleport field...(here comes the monk barrelling at me) i grab my staff he cannot see me. (he goes stealth perhaps) i cast true sight (he comes barrelling towards me again) i grab my staff i'm invis (meanwhile teleport field or sphere of chaos are trying to get him) he desides not to right being desintegrated moved out of the sphere or chaos..i wait a sec let loose my spell trigger of 3 "lower resistance" at him his magic resistance drops from 90 to 39..(he come barrelling towards me again) he tries to hit quivering palm on his way (if hes lucky he lives though the sphere of chaos with his lowered magic resistance) I grab my staff he tries to run out of my spere of choas before he dies..I wait a sec, cast another sphere of chaos around myself...remember i cast really fast ...i could go on but basically becos i can become invis at while and a monk has no way of detecting it he would lose since i can wither his magic resistance down and kill him with one finger of death spell. I'm not saying a monk could not win the fight but he would have to be really lucky

BTW amulet of power will prevent level drain but then a sorcerer does not level drain anyone...(i aint no vampire) so what was that comment about...feeblemind, polymorph, and finger of eath are not level draining spells

Again note that in multiplayer you cannot pause during combat to use invisibility instantly, and if you stand there invisible surround by a sphere of chaos any sensible monk is going to sit out at 10 paces and wait for something to happen. The spell ends you go visible to do something he runs in, etc.

We can go on forever speculating.

Again: WHY HAS NOBODY SIMPLY BATTLED THEM AND SEEN THE OUTCOME? IS IT TOO TRICKY TO SET UP?

I'll research the multiplayer thing some tonight. Does anyone out there have a 21st level monk/17th level sorcerer they want to match against each other?

KN · Post by KN » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:10 pm

If multiplayer in BG2 works the same way like it did in BG1 then a fighter/thief with a cloak of nondetection would be able to win any fight against a wizard or fighter type because the use of stealth would be unlimited because other PC's do not go hostile during a fight and you can just keep hiding in shadows and getting the innitial attack in then you just hide again. It would be difficult to get in a back stab but would it really matter?

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"Four thousand throats may be cut in one night, by a running man."
- Klingon Crewman "Day of the Dove"

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:53 pm

Two,

I have a 17th level sorceror ready to battle in multiplayer.

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KN,

Cloak of non-detection does not protect against True Sight. Read the description of the item.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:23 pm

If he doesn't turn hostile the True Sight will not work (maybe Oracle or Glitterdust)
Anyway, most area attack spells (like skulltrap or sunfire) doesn't care whether you are invisible or not.

[This message has been edited by Kovi (edited 02-27-2001).]

Giles the Sorcerer · Post by **Giles the Sorcerer** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:25 pm

WE CAN'T TEST IT OUT. BG assumes your a friendly, so many many spells don't work (Wilting, invis, true sight.) against the other character.

RiPPeR · Post by **RiPPeR** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:36 pm

yeah, if there is something missing in bg2 is the option to pu 2 players hostile
so we could teste our habilities

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:28 pm

I still think an high level assassin with cloak of non detection, and a couple of places to hide would be a very difficult opponent. The only thing that gets rid of Non-detection is Oracle. You can cast all the true sight you like, the assasin will still be hidden.

Then it's simply a case of creaping up behind the mage and POW! x7 backstab... game over. Show me a mage who can live against a x7 backstab! Even with 18 constitution, max hit points would probably be around 80 max! x7 backstab would do at least 100.

But that's not taking into account the stoneskin, blur, ghost armour and all that stuff, so it could be very difficult to hit the bugger in the first place. And as far as the mage going invisible? Well, I believe detect illusion would remove that as quickly as true sight, oracle etc. So Mage has to be visible. The main barrier is the stoneskin and protections...

Still, I'd be willing to put my level 23 assassin to the test against a high level sorcerer any day. Especially with some nice traps here and there

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:30 pm

Forgot about the poison too! Lets say that the mage (miraculously) survives the backstab, the poison would disrupt further spell casting abilities and would surely kill him.

But I think the x7 backstab would be sufficient.

Hex92 · Post by **Hex92** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:36 pm

afaik you can pause during multiplayer if you set it up so both players have permission. But I have only played MP by myself. Which is the way you could answer this question yourself. Just start a game and import your two combatants (generated in Shadowkeeper if necessary) and go to town.

I did this to see who was tougher: my 12/19 Kensai/Mage or 20th level Korgan. Needless to say if spells are used the K/M wins everytime.
Just like a 23rd level sorcerer could beat a monk...anyday.

Hex92