The Why thread of SYM

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:31 pm

This is all from Sarah BTW, but most women enjoy men who do those sort of things. Most men think all women think about is sex. And its not. We have needs to. Those are the things we look in for most men, sensitivity above all. To many men only include them selves in the picture, there are other things in the world besides you guys.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:11 pm

I never saw this last post.

Thank you Sarah for the info. I have another "why" however.

Why is it that someone feels the need to say they're going to kill themselves, and then throw aside honest advice on their situation, and deny they are doing it for attention? That bothers me.

I've been suicidal since I was 5 or so. It's been something I kept to myself as I've viewed it as a pointless thought and not one to be acted upon. Yet, it's been a constant thing, so I can understand suicidal people for a good bit more than others.

Now, the girl is one I just met, two nights ago. I'm sitting here trying to calm her down, instead of attending my house warming party, because well, I'm damn good at helping people with emotional problems. I'm blatantly honest and don't lie to make people feel better. It might not be all fluffy and immediately helpful, but it's honest, and in the long run more effective I've found. So, she's suicidal, I'm talking to her about life and trying to figure out "why". I know what triggered it, yet the trigger to push someone over the edge isn't the "why" in almost every case.

Well I suppose, I'm just curious. What's the logic in SAYING you want to kill yourself and be left alone, rejecting help, and not doing anything? That's flawed logic in my opinion. If I wanted to kill myself NO ONE would hear of it until they found my body, if I wanted help, I'd just say so. If I wanted attention, I'd go out and get some. There are far better ways to do so than threatening suicide. It boggles my mind.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:23 pm

Magrus wrote:Why is it that someone feels the need to say they're going to kill themselves, and then throw aside honest advice on their situation, and deny they are doing it for attention? That bothers me.

I don't know about your particular friends of course, but in general, many people who know no other coping strategy to get attention and care from others than threatning suicide, will of course deny they do it for attention because then they know they will recieve less attention and care the next time.

Well I suppose, I'm just curious. What's the logic in SAYING you want to kill yourself and be left alone, rejecting help, and not doing anything? That's flawed logic in my opinion. If I wanted to kill myself NO ONE would hear of it until they found my body, if I wanted help, I'd just say so. If I wanted attention, I'd go out and get some. There are far better ways to do so than threatening suicide. It boggles my mind.

In my experience, and also what I've read in the scientific literature about suicide ideation and behaviours, threatning suicide to get attention is a bad coping strategy, choosen by people who really have no better means. The problem is that it's often initially a good strategy, since most people react dramatically with a very caring and attentative behaviour towards the person who says s/he wants to commit suicide. So, the persons' first experiences will often provide a very strong reinforcment, ie a strong encouragement to continue with the behaviour. When people have found an easy strategy (threatning suicide doesn't take a lot of work, time and energy) to feel better, most will be prone to use it rather than starting the difficult effort to work with themselves in a major, long term way. Temporary attention, care and consolation (social reinforcment) from others works well to make people feel better for a short while, and since the initial experiences are often very positive in the sense that they really get what they want, it's difficult to get people to stop. It's similar to a drug: it's easier to take the quick fix and feel better, working hard to cope with your difficulties long term, i e learning new coping skills and strategies.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:33 pm

Makes sense I suppose. It's still a flawed logic to me. I tend to be brutally honest when circumstances allow.

Talking to the girl, I've figured out her parents abandoned here, she works 4 jobs to live on her own and 2 jobs when school is in session. So there's something I need to work out with her I think. As far as the rest of things, I suppose only talking with her will do. It's hard, when you're that emotionally unstable, things end up throwing you to extremes. My comments on the things that are positive about her are ending up garnering a sexual response from her. While that might end up pleasant, it's not what I'm looking for, or therapeutic.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:49 pm

Magrus wrote:Makes sense I suppose. It's still a flawed logic to me. I tend to be brutally honest when circumstances allow.

It IS flawed logic, it's very flawed logic, logic does not rule a person in this state, acute short-term emotional needs do. The flawed logic is usually part of the lack of efficient coping skills.

My comments on the things that are positive about her are ending up garnering a sexual response from her. While that might end up pleasant, it's not what I'm looking for, or therapeutic.

As usual I can of course not judge this particular girl and this particular situation, but again in general, that is such a typical response from this kind of people...they are not used to sincere positive feedback and responses from other people, and they often have very limited ways to handle it. It's so common that they react with sexualising any positive response they get, because they know no other way of handling it. You are kind to her and say positive things about her, that must mean that she must offer you sex, or that she must/should be sexually attracted to you.

I have a friend who is like that, he has severe ADHD and a lot of personal, social and emotional problems. If he likes a person who happens to be a woman, his only means of expressing or channel this is to express that he wants to have sex with the woman. It's really sad to be so limited in modes of expressing things towards other people.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:53 pm

*nods* She's a pretty girl, I wouldn't mind being involved with a sexual relationship with her. However, offerering me sex for being honest and affectionate with her isn't how I want to end up in bed with her. I'd rather help her through this, see her stable and healthy first. If after that point she's still of the same mindset with her feelings for me, then we could talk.

It honestly bothers me seeing such a young woman feel the need to reciprocate positive feedback with sex. I don't like that. Sex should be used in conjunction with emotional attachment with a specific person IMHO.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:00 pm

A very wise decision. I think it's due to the massive media message that sex is a measurement of your value as a person, your meaning of life, your successfulness etc, etc, that many people with few coping resources tend to sexualise different emotions and situations that we would view as far more differentiated and varied. Sex is sort of the first thing you learn has a value in our society. Money can have the same function if people are rich. I've seen both females and males offer money for everything. It is less common but equally sad, meeting somebody who offer you money just for saying a few friendly words to them.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:10 pm

I find that sad too. It was interesting, see the reactions of different people. I hate studying things by books, I prefer learing by truly delving into reality and experiencing things. I went through a socialogy course and blew through it. The teacher was amazed.

I love learning the reasons people think and do and say different things. The why, how, when, etc behind all of it. It's been intriguing figure out the response to different things depending on what I say and do. For example the girl in question offered sex, and I offered a hug. The emotional response was astounding. The affection and comfort level shown amazed me.

The fact that people offer what they aren't interested in giving in hopes for achieving an emotional goal disturbs me. I'm still trying to figure out why people feel the need for that. I don't want people in my life that can't take me for who I am. Even my family is involved with that. The ones who can't accept me aren't allowed near me, in any manner.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:29 pm

I like to learn all possible ways, and I view different types of knowledge as applicable to different areas in life. I have been priviledged enough to be able to choose to learn from both books and papers, personal experience, other people's experience as well as other peoples' and my own scientific experiments. Reading is good for me, I read extremly fast and I have a really good memory for text, too. That's pure luck, I did nothing do deserve that ability.

It's a very long way to go before we puny little humans understand all the why's, how's and when's behind our own behaviour, but science has come a long way in explaining and describing some of the basics so I am very happy to have studied psychology, neuroscience and genetics. I only took half a term of sociology, and honestly I learned from reading by myself than from the lousy uni teachers I had. If you had the possibility and inclination to study psychology and behavioural science, I am sure you would do very well.

My guess is that the girl in question was genuinly happy and surprised by your response. She's probably used to people taking advantage of what she has to offer. A lot of people, men and female, don't say no to sex based on the offering persons' state of vulnerability. Being offered sex is always good, eh?

I think people offer what they aren't really interested in giving because they simply don't know any better way to achive their emotional goals. I view it as a sort of social blindness, that they for various reasons have never had the opportunity to learn other strategies. For instance, I have seen many both men and women who have been the victims of sexual abuse, offer sex as a sign of appreciation or friendship. Often that is based on deep underlying assumptions that they have nothing else of value to offer other people, and even if they think they have, they have no idea how to express or give this.

I remember one of my patients when I worked as a clinician, this was a young girl who came from a really misarable social background. When she fell in love for the first time, she let the guy abuse her sexually at her at her birthday party, because even though she didn't want to have sex with him, she felt she had to, because she was in love with him. The next day the guy returned, with two of his friends and they all raped her. She cried and said no, but they did it anyway, and after, she felt like this was something she just had to accept, because she was in love with this guy, so of course she must be sexually available to him in any way he wanted? It was not until years later that she realised this was actually a rape. That is somebody has sex with you when you don't want it and you clearly express that you don't want it, it is rape. I think there are tens of thousands of people who have similar experiences like her.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:40 pm

That is somebody has sex with you when you don't want it and you clearly express that you don't want it, it is rape. I think there are tens of thousands of people who have similar experiences like her.

A lot of people don't want to believe that a situation of rape is truly rape. I can't believe they don't truly understand it IS rape, just that they don't accept it as rape. A LOT of my friends have told me of situations and I've had to tell them "that's rape, why didn't you SAY something?" and they get all upset.

Too many people do what they are uncomfortable doing to appease others. My refusing to do such things has caused me trouble. I won't refute that. My family hates I refuse any activities dealing with churches, including funerals and weddings, yet I stand up for how I feel. They can whine and complain, but I stood up for myself and I won't be uncomfortable to make someone else feel better about themselves.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:27 pm

In my understanding, most people who have been raped without acknowleding it do understand it as you say, but they don't accept it as a rape, they try to deny it, which is quite understandable in many cases. However, there are also some people, although a much smaller group, who really does not understand they have been raped due to habituation of sexual abuse. These are people who have grown up with life-long sexual abuse for as long as they can remember. I am not talking about children now, who clearly do not always understand that they have been raped, but I am referring to people who have been constantly abused by adults (usually parents or close relatives) who have taught them the idea that sex between people who love each other is an act of the other person forcing him/herself upon you. I have met a few people who have not understood they have been raped because they have absolutely no concept of sex, they can't even imagine sex can be any different than an abusive act, and they have stopped feeling anything about it long ago.

Too many people do what they are uncomfortable doing to appease others. My refusing to do such things has caused me trouble.

Many people fear social rejection so much so they never even try to stop. And yet many people start trying, but the conflicts and problems it causes has such a punishing effect on them that they quickly go back to adjusting themselves according to others' wishes and expectations again.

Personally, I did the same choice as you did, and it caused me a lot of trouble as well. Years of major conflicts in my entire family, at some points all my relatives totally rejected me and my parents threw me out of the house when I was 15. To me, it was worth it because I suffered more from trying to adjust to their values and norms and image of what I should be, than I suffered from the conflicts, but unfortunately - some effects of those conflicts are unrepairable, I guess it's the same for you. It has a cost to behave in a way your environment finds socially unacceptable, and it may not be worth it for everyone.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:43 am

I got the girl to go off to bed and get sleep after some compromises and activities to see to it she wasn't able to stay up any longer. Kind of wierded me out hearing "I love you" though. Don't like hearing that from someone I've only known for 3 days.

So, another one, why is it people have to claim to love another person when it is that they just love how a person treats them and makes them feel, and not the person themself?

Locke Da'averan · Post by **Locke Da'averan** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:13 am

because ppl see the meaning of the words "i love you" differently, i've only said those words to one person and that's because i meant it..

some say it meaning stuff like "i like you" "i think you're special to me, maybe" "let's have sex" "i think you're hot"

stuff like that, and when 2ppl with different views about those words come together, confusion arises, that's pretty much as clearly as i can put it, someone with brains still intact can fill in the rest or correct me if i'm wrong.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:47 am

*nods* That, or they say it because it's something that tends to garner more attention, or affection from another person. I had to lecture that girl on saying that to me, definately a confused little girl who's caused me a great deal of headache's the past week or so.

Looking back on things, there's only one time that I heard "I love you" and I haven't questioned the truth of that statement. All of the others, I've been stomped on by that person afterwards, invalidating the statement. I find that quite ironic considering how often I have heard it since that one time.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:20 am

To some people, "I love you" means something like "I think you are a nice person" or "I find you attractive". In the US, I've heard people say "I love you, have a nice day" as a goodbye-phrase, like when you end a letter with "love, C Elegans" and it is equal to saying "regards, C Elegans".

I believe the extremly broad use of "I love you" is also, like the offering sex or money thing, associated to the person's ability and experience in defining and expressing inner states. And when you are not sure of what to do and what to say, you easily end up doing or saying something that you believe is expected from you, something you believe the other person would appreciate. Here, the influence of media and stereotypes come in. In Hollywood movies, I have noticed that it's very common that people say "I love you" to each other, although they just met. The Hollywood version of love and relationships, is usually describing the "falling in love"-state, not the "real love based on deep and genuine knowledge of each other"-state. Thus, people who have just fallen in love, say a lot of "I love you" in movies. On my recent Thule-trip, I heard that the young people in Thule have started saying "I love you" now first time they have sex with a person. That was not common before, "I love you" was traditionally associated with deep and lasting feelings for the other person, but recently this has changed, and the older people believe it is due to the introduction of Western movies.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:26 am

I've started to become disgusted upon hearing it from most everyone. Just because, most people don't use it in a manner of meaning that deep, intense, emotional connection that I happen to believe love is. Most people I've met throw the phrase around in order to either get something from someone, or to give someone what they think that other person wants to hear.

Love is a powerful emotion, something that can and will change your life, perceptions of the world around you, how you act and do things. Even if it is little things, in little ways. "I love you" shouldn't be used carelessly or without meaning it. It degrades the emotion it represents IMO.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:39 am

I think that the word "love" has gotten same meaning as word "like" today. In my language, we still (luckily) use the correct translation of "love" in more suitable situations, eg when if the person really loves other, and translation for "like" in daily life, when the feelings aren't as serious