Gender Preconceptions - No Spam

[Maharlika]

Originally posted by Dottie:
<STRONG>I realy HATE gender stereotypes, why cant people be just people and allowed to create thier own identity?

Generalizations like "womans mind works diferently then males" and such does only serve to destroy individuality, and when any generalization is applied to a certain individual it becomes discriminating.</STRONG>

Maybe gender stereotyping is too strong a word. But whether we like it or not, there ARE distinct differences between the sexes --- and I'm not referring to physiological and morphological diffs, although these would play significant roles.

Nature has given each gender a "template" behaviour alloted to its members in order to assume a specific role. In earlier times, why is it that men do the hunting and the women do the cooking/housekeeping?

In time our behaviors are somewhat modified because as Fable mentioned, culture and environment play profound roles here.

I would also like to include technology since at this day and age, there are a lot of things that women can do what men do (sometimes better) and vice versa (sometimes better too).

But still the template is still there...

...though I cant figure out while the lionesses do all the dirty work for the pride while the male lion just sits there like a king.

But then again they are lions not humans.

[dragon wench]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>Since SYM is of a fairly well distributed gender, it occured to me that it would be interesting to see the opinions of members on the natural gender preconceptions that circulate in society.

For instance it is assumed that most gamers are male. Is this correct or should this be more of an equal playing field?

I will post more gender preconceptions as they come to my damaged psyche </STRONG>

Interesting question.
I think that game developers almost certainly assume that more men play computers games than do women. Not to rehash an ancient gripe, but this is reflected in the romance choices in BG 2. It is also evident in the sexual stereotyping and unrealistic portrayal of many female heroines.......Lara Croft comes to mind........

And I've also noticed that sometimes men and women are treated differently on this board. Men who are often somewhat combative with one another, will react quite differently to the female members of sym.

[VoodooDali]

Dragon Wench--at least BG tried to think of us women with the romances, even if they only gave us Anomen who really sucks! I've enjoyed playing as a male with the Jaheira romance a lot more. Jaheira is pretty cool anyway--she's tough! You'd have thought they would have read the female player's posts about the disappointment in Anomen, and given us another option in ToB. Oh well. I always had a thing for Aran Linvail.

"And I've also noticed that sometimes men and women are treated differently on this board. Men who are often somewhat combative with one another, will react quite differently to the female members of sym."

Just what I was noticing myself--so it's not just my imagination.

[fable]

Originally posted by Maharlika:
<STRONG>Nature has given each gender a "template" behaviour alloted to its members in order to assume a specific role. In earlier times, why is it that men do the hunting and the women do the cooking/housekeeping? </STRONG>

Actually, in some non-European societies (including a few which preserve very old cultural modes), procedures are reversed: the males are hearthkeepers, the women are providers/protectors. I suspect there was no constant in this. And given tens of thousands of years of undocumented human history, we have no way of determining whether any "template" as such exists, based on only examining the last several thousand with any degree of detail.

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

[Aleldar]

Originally posted by Fas:
<STRONG>Ah for gaming my bad - stupid me!

But i agree with my fellow COMMarde, women tend to play badly.
Now Voodoo that isn't because we think you are mentally inferior.
It is because we believe you don't play as much as we do.
A guy at a comp game will spend 7 tp 8 hours before he leaves the game.
From what i have seen a women will play fpr 1 hour max then do something else and then come back to it.

And yes guys tend to take it easier on girls when they are playing with them, because i believe you aren't aficandos of the gaming world - meaning you don't play 24/7. Second yes i will be insulted if a lady kills me.
She may be far better than me, but the fact that it was a girl would just kill me.</STRONG>

I see you have never played sports with women. Just because they might look small and delicate. Doesn't mean they can't turn you into a pretzel.

I have learned a few things, "NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE A WOMAN". It could be very unhealthty.

[fable]

Fas writes:
And yes guys tend to take it easier on girls when they are playing with them, because i believe you aren't aficandos of the gaming world - meaning you don't play 24/7. Second yes i will be insulted if a lady kills me. She may be far better than me, but the fact that it was a girl would just kill me.

I know you mean this amusingly, but I'd gladly step back and let you experience the fury of my wife at such a remark--and I'd laugh, too. I'm evil, cruel and sadistic, that way.

[Aleldar]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>I know you mean this amusingly, but I'd gladly step back and let you experience the fury of my wife at such a remark--and I'd laugh, too. I'm evil, cruel and sadistic, that way. </STRONG>

So, you have taken a few lumps too, eh Fable?

[fable]

Originally posted by Aleldar:
<STRONG>So, you have taken a few lumps too, eh Fable? </STRONG>

Um, no. Remember, I'm the one who isn't making either gender-specific observations or gender jokes.

[nael]

this topic reminded me of last year when a man fought a professional female boxer...he had nothign to gain no matter what. but he was an exception, i think most men could care less about facing off against a woman.
i have found that most women take it much more personally when going against a man, than the other way around. when a woman wins in some contest or another, she feels the need to make a point of it with a man. the other way around, we just don't care. watch any show that ends up pitting a man against a woman and see the reaction of each side. the woman takes a huge victory and the man just shrugs his shoulders.

obviously these are gross generalizations...but the whole topic was about preconceptions.

[NCT]

@dw +@VD oes that mean,what I think it means?Or it is just an observation,mostly unfounded,or rather founded on the behavioral patterns of the SYMians?

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>Interesting question.
I think that game developers almost certainly assume that more men play computers games than do women. Not to rehash an ancient gripe, but this is reflected in the romance choices in BG 2. It is also evident in the sexual stereotyping and unrealistic portrayal of many female heroines.......Lara Croft comes to mind........</STRONG>

The interesting thing is how many men see these images and are not impressed. RPG's are a good example of this, i find the scantly clad female on the box exposing all but her nipples very patronising. The idea that a game is sold to us through a half naked woman seems trite, surely the quality of the game is the important part, not the hottie on the cover .

<STRONG>And I've also noticed that sometimes men and women are treated differently on this board. Men who are often somewhat combative with one another, will react quite differently to the female members of sym.</STRONG>

HeHe Ms Incredible and Yvonne spring to mind

[Maharlika]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Actually, in some non-European societies (including a few which preserve very old cultural modes), procedures are reversed: the males are hearthkeepers, the women are providers/protectors. I suspect there was no constant in this. And given tens of thousands of years of undocumented human history, we have no way of determining whether any "template" as such exists, based on only examining the last several thousand with any degree of detail.

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: fable ]</STRONG>

These non-European societies that you speak of --- were they pre-historic?

The understanding that I got from this so-called "template" was that during primordial times there was a pattern of some sort on what each of the gender's role were --- based on the skeletons and the stuff "regularly" discovered with each gender.

This "template" of behavior coincides with the "natural(?)" differences between males and females.

The human male and female have distinct physiological differences that would dictate the gender-role they were supposed to play, hence a corresponding sets of behavior. Naturally, the (human) males are better equipped to take the role of protector/provider. The females take care of the children so they tend to stay "at home."

As for the reversed-role that you speak of in these societies, perhaps there was a series of events that led to a drastic reduction of the male members. The females had to take the male role and then somehow it stucked eversince. Protecting/providing are roles IMHO that involve a lot of risks to one's physical individual existence than being hearthkeepers, hence the significant reduction of the males.

But then again my assumption could be wrong if for example in these societies, the males behave so much like the male lions, leaving much of the "dirty work" to the females.

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Maharlika ]

[fable]

Originally posted by nael:
<STRONG>i have found that most women take it much more personally when going against a man, than the other way around. when a woman wins in some contest or another, she feels the need to make a point of it with a man. the other way around, we just don't care. watch any show that ends up pitting a man against a woman and see the reaction of each side. the woman takes a huge victory and the man just shrugs his shoulders.

obviously these are gross generalizations...but the whole topic was about preconceptions.</STRONG>

I think it depends upon the environment. Many women in the US and Western Europe are still being brought up in a culture which has been male dominant for a long time, so that success over an individual tends to become instead a success over a class of people--regrettable, but understandable. As to the other way around, I've seen quite a few men who feel threatened by women, for whatever reason, and trumpet any success over them.

Again, I think it's cultural. My brother-in-law, for example, comes of lower class Irish immigrant stock. For the longest time, he would poke fun at women when the four of us (him, his wife, my wife and myself) were together, or make jokes about "bossy women," and "women are just like that." And every damn time he would turn to me with a laugh or even a question requesting validation. I'd just turn around or flatly answer him, "No."

At the same time, I've never heard of him saying an unkind word to his wife. He's extremely supportive of his kids, although his understanding of joint activities is limited entirely to competitive sports. (He's had several operations for wrestling injuries acquired when in high school. Guess what sport he encouraged his son to pursue.)

I'm getting off subject a bit, but my point is that some men and some women see the opposite sex as threatening and competitive in all sorts of activities. On a personal note, I've generally had better success relating to female bosses rather than male. They've been more perceptive of working relationships, and the necessary emotional coloration of ideas. They also have better senses of humor. All this is just my perspective, of course.

[Shadow Sandrock]

*would like to hear Sailor Saturn's opinion on this...*

I'm not a Chauvinist, or a feminist, I think we're all people, and that's really all that matters. I don't see antennae growing out of women! ^_~ Then again...

[VoodooDali]

Oops, I was spotted. Must retract antennae... Imperative that I blend in.

[fable]

Originally posted by Shadow Sandrock:
<STRONG>I'm not a Chauvinist, or a feminist, I think we're all people, and that's really all that matters. I don't see antennae growing out of women! ^_~ Then again...</STRONG>

I can sell you a nickel-plated shovel that will make it much easier to dig that hole you're working yourself into, cheap.

[Gwalchmai]

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>And I've also noticed that sometimes men and women are treated differently on this board. Men who are often somewhat combative with one another, will react quite differently to the female members of sym.</STRONG>

I never noticed this....

[Minerva]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>Since SYM is of a fairly well distributed gender...</STRONG>

How things have changed...

I remember in the early SYM, when I said "hello", someone often said, "another woman seeking attention". Chrissy was only the other female member regularly posting then, really...

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by Minerva:
<STRONG>How things have changed...

I remember in the early SYM, when I said "hello", someone often said, "another woman seeking attention". Chrissy was only the other female member regularly posting then, really...</STRONG>

For the better?

I hope the someone wasn't me

[Word]

The only thing I have a problem with women is that known (that I know about) like me, but I can excuse that, hell I wouldn't like me either.