Ragnorak!

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:57 am

[QUOTE=CM]Guys this would be one of those no spam threads. Kapish?[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't that be up to the threads creator?

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:57 am

[QUOTE=Moonbiter] And do you think the English language need for ending all Norse names with an "i" comes from the fact that the original version ends with an "e" as in Mode, Magne, Snorre, Våle, Loke, etc and it's a spelling problem?[/QUOTE]

I don't know where it comes from.

Some examples on English "makeover"

Loke -> Loki
Tor -> Thor
Skade -> Skadi
Surt -> Surtur
Frig -> Frigga
Trym -> Thrym
Ægir -> Aegir
Forsete-> Forseti
Frøj ->Frey
Frøja -> Freya
Brage -> Bragi
Siv -> Sif

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:05 am

[QUOTE=Fiberfar]I don't know where it comes from.

Some examples on English "makeover"
(...)[/QUOTE]

Yeah, why do they do that? Why is Homerus suddenly Homer, and instead of writing the Ilias he wrote the Iliad??
Anyway, although I really wonder what's that about, it's a bit off topic...

I wouldn't know what side to choose because I don't know enough. Probably the gods though.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:11 am

[QUOTE=Moonbiter]Isn't Erda just the "queen of death and shadows" in the Germanic version of the myth, as portrayed in continental versions of the myth and more famously in Wagner's The Nibelungen Ring et all?[/quote]

Wagner was never clear about anything he composed. He claimed at various times to have meant many different things in different plot devices, characters, etc, mainly to please whatever audience he was writing for at the moment. That's not a cynical view of Wagner. He was a liar, a bigot, and a self-serving hypocrite. He was also an excellent composer.

On the matter of Erda, he did remark at least once that she was meant to be the Earth Goddess; which would make a kind of sense in his view of these matters. The children of Wotan and Erda from a previous coupling resulted in the Valkyrie, who mediated between the heavens (Wotan) and the earth (Erda) in bringing the souls of heroes to Valhalla in preparation for Ragnarok. The second time around, he comes for answers to questions, returning to "the source of it all." As news media go for fafts, you can't get better than Erda.

I have been rooting through Våluspå and Edda for 2 hours now, and I can't find any mention of her anywhere, however she features prominently as "Mother Earth" in Rheingold and Gøtterdammerung.

Precisely.

And do you think the English language need for ending all Norse names with an "i" comes from the fact that the original version ends with an "e" as in Mode, Magne, Snorre, Våle, Loke, etc and it's a spelling problem?

It's a matter of sound matching letter. Proper names are typically adjusted whenever they enter a language for sound, though there are exceptions. Classical music was so terrorized by the scholarly Germans of the 19th century that for a long time all composers' names were given in their Germanic form: Tchaikovsky. Nowadays, American and British scholars are moving away from that: Chaikovsky. The long "i" in English is pronounced as in "eye," which differs from nearly all Romance and Scandanavian languages--so if a god name ends in "e" as in "bee," the English equivalent has to use "i."

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:30 pm

[QUOTE=fable]A lot is never made clear, which is why I asked. I read both the Prose and Poetic Eddas years ago, but my impression remains that it draws from various sources--folktales, bardic songs, prophecies, parables, etc. Ragnarok in particular has a prophetic flavor, and if I recall correctly, exists in several variants with contradictory details. But I'll have to do more research to confirm this. I suspect a sincere Asatru witch could give us all the details we want, but I'm just a Gardnerian.

[/QUOTE]

@Fable: This is probably true. I wonder for example if the short passage about a haven and hell after ragnarok is something taken directly from christianity.

Stoned_Golem · Post by **Stoned_Golem** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:42 pm

[QUOTE=Grimar]i would join magrus on his roof

isn't it called ragnarok not ragnorak??[/QUOTE]

lol sorry, did not know that such a teensy weensy error would go noticed, I didnt notice till it was pointed out. Sorry!

Stoned_Golem · Post by **Stoned_Golem** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:47 pm

Umm

About the spam thing, and CM. Im cool with spam or no spam, but keep it on topic please

and another thing.. this is getting off topic, I happy lotsa people posting, but I didn't really need a Norse history lesson, though it is interesting

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:43 pm

[QUOTE=Dottie]@Fable: This is probably true. I wonder for example if the short passage about a haven and hell after ragnarok is something taken directly from christianity.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure it is. The whole thing has an apocalyptic air which is far more typical of Judeo-Christianity and Gnosticism. But how does one go about determining this? It's an area where investigation is fruitless. If there was a level of development in the Edda where Ragnarok was different, it hasn't survived, because the transmission was largely oral. Even written materials tended to vanish when disapproved by the majority culture.

Witch King · Post by **Witch King** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:54 pm

[QUOTE=Dottie]If I remember correctly a few of the Gods actually survive to see a better world, so one of them would be my answer.

The Poetic Edda, particularly the part called Völuspá. If you prefer prose then read the Prose Edda. Both are easily found on the internet if you are lazy.

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/poetic/001_01.php#1
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/prose/index.php

I find them quite humorous at times.

Then happens what will seem a great miracle, that the wolf devours the sun, and this will seem a great loss. The other wolf will devour the moon, and this too will cause great mischief.[/QUOTE]

THANKS FOR The info dottie!!