Please note that new user registrations disabled at this time.

Do bards cut it in BG2 or IWD

This forum is to be used for all discussions pertaining to BioWare's Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn.
User avatar
Sargon
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 10:00 pm
Contact:

Post by Sargon »

"You have to be careful with sarcasm...it doesn't translate well in most electronic media."

You know, I just can't respond to this without coming off as sarcastic. ;)

"I was NOT refering to an inability to cast higher (7-10) level spells, although that does hurt the Bard severely. I was *referring* to the fact that your *casting* level tops at 20 for the bard, but is unlimited for the F/Mu dual...a *very* important point in ToB"

While I haven't tested it, where are you pulling this information from? The only time I noticed this was when my Globe of Invulnerability dropped a few seconds before Imoen's, and I was 35th and she was 29th. The 9 round difference that she should've had supports the manual's claims. The manual itself (far from a reliable source as we all might know) states all defensive spells with a level-based duration are capped for all casters at 20th level. Where does anything come out with the fact a pure caster doesn't hit this effect cap, and that Bards in fact do?

After poking through some of the datafiles, I cannot find any such reference (but I could've missed something, or I could be looking in the wrong place). Spells themselves all appear to cap at 20th (a few exceptions, Sim goes up to 23rd level for duration). Incindiary cloud, Horid Wilting, etc. all cap at 20th level in the data files, unless I'm missing some modifier...

So feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but kindly show me how you know this.

"I also point out that many of the Bard special abilities in SoA require the Bard to sit out of combat (much like turning undead). This is ok for a backliner like Aerie (I like to have Aerie turn undead when she has nothing better to do), but a 'blade' is a mid-rank character and needs to be contributing each round."

And they can contribute every round, but they can also fall back and provide decent support with the enhanced bard song. That's one of the three different special (combat) abilities a Blade kit has. Offensive and Defensive Spins are quite combat oriented.

Aerie is a waste of space outside of a few scant combinations of uses that I never used often enough to really warrent her presence. Yes, some triggers and contingancies are nice with cleric spells, along with the Robe of Vecna, but I prefered Anomen's passable combat skills and brutal turning undead, Keldorn's ability to spank casters silly, and Imoen's wizard spells rounded out the party (when I did the party route in SoA, this was after the bugs referenced below were introduced and I had to adapt). I still had the majority of kills throughout SoA and ToB, and SoA can be solo'd by a blade.

"I also point out that time is *not* an issue."

Eh?

How is the benefit of getting (itemX) early on in the game compared to getting (itemX) later on in the game not a time issue?

The difference between the Ring of Regeneration and the regeneration Ioun Stone is far from minor. Yes you can sleep every time you need something you've "used up", but you quickly fall into familiar patterns.

/shrug

Ultimately, power lies in the roll of the dice. A (class) with 99% magic resistance and -20 save vs. death can still blow a MR check and roll a critical failure on their saving throw, and be dead on the ground from a death spell (Disintigrate, Flesh to Stone, etc.)

Its been stated by BIO that classes themselves are not balanced between each other, and monks and certain combinations are indeed more powerful than others. This doesn't mean a bard is useless, weak, or not worth having in a party.

If you're going to Min/Max everything, then yes, a bard is "useless" in comparisons to other class combinations, but alone or in a party they can be quite effective in SoA and ToB. Which was the major point, and one proven here.

Are there things that could've been done differently to make the even more interesting? Yup. One song the entire game? Even my AM Radio does better.

Note - This is ignoring the Dual Wield and Offensive Spin BUGS introduced with ToB.
Sargon the Blade
"So let me get this straight, you walked up to a dragon, totally naked, and challenged it to a duel??"
[url="http://www.attcanada.ca/~rebel_hq"]Writer's Block[/url]
User avatar
Xyx
Posts: 3104
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Xyx »

Originally posted by Sargon the Blade:
<STRONG>Aerie is a waste of space</STRONG>
That's a surprise from someone that claims Bards can tank! All that separates Aerie from real tanks is an extra attack. She has better Armor Class (wearing plate armor) than Minsc, Keldorn, Korgan or Anomen (because of her Dex). She can cast Tenser's to get good Hit Points and THAC0. She has Strength 18/00 after casting Strength twice (which lasts all day), which is even better than Minsc's. And that's just her combat side. This lady's clones are probably the most powerful summons in ToB!
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
User avatar
polaris
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by polaris »

Sargon,

Nothing I can say will change your mind (clearly), but I have played *both* the blade and dualed F/Mu...and the F/Mu dual is better in every respect. First of all, time is NOT AN ISSUE. If you have *any* regen at *all* then a rest period will reset your hits. 'nuff said there.

The Blade's spin is a poor man's version of the whirlwind attack and frankly never impressed me much. Either the Bard is hard to hit or he hits fairly well but has a glass jaw. The dualed F/Mu can (when tensored using the Staff of Magi) have an AC of -12 (or lower with super-high dex) which is competitive with any tank and has more than twice the hit points of your bard.

Bards never get 7-10th level spells which means they can't copy themselves, use protection from magic weapons in spell triggers, or all sorts of other nasty tricks that will cause any well designed F/Mu dual to eat a single classed bard (or anything else) for breakfast.

There is an old saying about being the jack of all trades (the bard). He inevitably winds up being the master of none. When it comes to combat magicians, the F/Mu dual is simply better. Better THACO, Better AC (when attacking and not turtling behind a defensive spin), more magic and BETTER MAGIC, far more hit points, better spell progression (spells do cap at 20th level, and the bard stops progressing as well). The fact is by the end of ToB, the Bard is inferior in about every respect. [I find songs are useless because if you use the song, you *can't* do anything else....which effectively takes the bard out of the party. NOT worth it.]

-Polaris

P.S. This will not change any minds I am certain, but play both and see for yourself.
User avatar
Craig
Posts: 4996
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Post by Craig »

I supose you can only fairly compare 2 of 1 class 'cos a bard and f/m R different
I'm Devious

This is my Gift. This is my Curse. Who am I? I'm SpiderCraig
User avatar
Sargon
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 10:00 pm
Contact:

Post by Sargon »

"First of all, time is NOT AN ISSUE. If you have *any* regen at *all* then a rest period will reset your hits. 'nuff said there."

Yeah, there's no advantage in having fully charged cloudkill, monster summoning, lightning, frost, magic missle and fire wands the minute you arrive in Wakky's Promenade from Irenicus' dungeon. Wander over to your local fence and unload the ones you don't want for a tidy profit, then back to the Adventurer's Mart or Copper Coronet for a few trinkets...

Think my first stop out of I's dungeon would be the gates, then to watcher's keep just to buy the damn potion case. Then I'd go relieve Roger of his inventory...

"Bards never get 7-10th level spells which means they can't copy themselves, use protection from magic weapons in spell triggers, or all sorts of other nasty tricks that will cause any well designed F/Mu dual to eat a single classed bard (or anything else) for breakfast."

Say again? I used a Mislead, Protection from Magic Weapons, and Stoneskin in a trigger. Yes, you don't end up using them every day, but then you learn not to rely on them. This isn't rock, paper, scissors - its a variant of AD&D rules, and there's always more than one way to skin a cat.

Funny thing is, I don't even remember where or when I used this trigger. I rarely used my blur/mirror image minor sequencer, as I relied on both contingancies (and a chain contingancy) and triggers as "oops, I blew that, better buy myself some time" tricks - defensive rather than offensive.

My pet peeve with clones is the way they are implemented. I really don't agree with the concept of an Illusion being able to use illusionary scrolls or skills with relative impunity, which led to me avoiding the use of any sort of invisibility or cloning 99% of the time. Especially after reading bits of Elmonster's journal.

I think this about sums things up:

"Learned this vs the silver D. I have multiple uses of time trap. 5 to be exact. I went close but not THAT close to the SD, and set 5 traps. Then I cast 5 skeleton warriors, and "attacked" one making it red. This immediatly triggered the "time stop" of the first trap, during which I ran over 10 feet, got the dragon in view, and started casting pierce magics, magic missles, etc. As soon as one time trap ended, the skeleton warrior triggered the next, with just a fraction of a second in between. You can thus sequence 5-10 time traps in a row. If I was a power gamer I would have taken more time traps, like 10. I don't think ANYTHING can withstand 15 free rounds of hacking! I think one time trap is about a round and three quarters or something like that."
- two's thread about the solo Skald

Yes, it requires forhand knowledge, yes its cheesy, but its far from being "weak" and "ineffective". The rest of that thread is worth the read. Almost as bad as the Amulet of Power + Robe of Vecna and Improved Alacrity spell. ;)

I found it funny that he had a "hard" time with the drow guy in Sendai's Enclave. I just beat the fool down, no spin, just stoneskin (fresh recast of it), flail of ages and celestial fury (I think, might've been something else. I swapped weapons around a lot).

The 3 fights at the seal before the Demogorgon were over before they began with the proper use of all 3 traps (and even the Demogorgon itself). The traps themselves weren't fatal to everything (or any one thing either), but it was enough to divide up the monsters nicely and soften them up so it was a 5 on 1 injured not a 6 uninjured on 5 fight.

Honestly, ToB really screwed up things classwise as it just reeks of a Monty-Haul campaign in my opinion. It was fun, but I'd rather go through a straight SoA install game (no ToB) with a few different ways rather than do SoA+ToB a few different ways.

Oh, and this had nothing to do with proving to YOU that bards were better than FMU Dual Classes. This was about showing how they weren't weak and useless. Bards can do lots of things well enough to get through BG2 without having a horrid time like another class might.

Would you take a Bard over a Beast Master? :D

You can run probabilities out into infinity and it STILL doesn't matter. Ultimately each and every character is a victim of the dice. While its maybe 99.99999% probable that you won't lose to Opponent X, until the die is rolled, you cannot be certain.

I will have to go fiddle with Aerie now, since I forgot about a few spells and tricks. Maybe I'll try a multiclass mage-clerc for sh!ts and giggles...but I was never big on multiclasses and ToB really changes things on that front.
Sargon the Blade
"So let me get this straight, you walked up to a dragon, totally naked, and challenged it to a duel??"
[url="http://www.attcanada.ca/~rebel_hq"]Writer's Block[/url]
User avatar
polaris
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by polaris »

Sargon,

You need a spell sequencer to use stoneskin that way (level 7 and too high for your bard). THe best a bard can do is contingincey. I *never* said the bard was useless; I said I was thumbs down because a bard is too much of a generalist (and therefor too weak to contribute any *one* thing to a party). F/Mus are better at combat magic (which is what bards are designed for).

As for recharging wands, *yawn* It doesn't matter. I always see my 1 charge wand of cloudkill and buy it back with 50. You earn so much money in SoA that pickpockets is NOT IMPORTANT.

-Polaris
User avatar
dragon wench
Posts: 19609
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The maelstrom where chaos merges with lucidity
Contact:

Post by dragon wench »

There is extensive debate on this subject in earlier threads, that's what the search option is for.
Spoiler
testingtest12
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Spoiler
testingtest12
.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain.
User avatar
Tom
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The Hundred Acre Wood
Contact:

Post by Tom »

dw

if pepol want to slug it out let them

sure they could read about somewhere else but they are having a debate.

So if you dont like the debate dont read it - everything has been debated on this site
I didn't really bounce Eeyore. I had a cough, and I happened to be behind Eeyore, and I said "Grrrr-oppp-ptschschschz."

Tigger
User avatar
two
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 11:00 pm
Contact:

Post by two »

Well -- from my point of view -- it's kinda silly to argue about.

Bards and fighter/mages are BOTH powerful enough to dance through SOA with few problems.

I actually chose the Bard class because I felt it was a little weaker than a F/M, and I wanted a challenge. However, as a Skald, the game was OVER when I hit level 15, which was very quickly as a rogue. (this was surprising to me).

Why? I could summon skeleton warriors, at first just a few (2-3) but soon 5. Skeleton Warriors+Bard Song=Dead stuff.

You can literally cruise through entire dungeons with this combo only sleeping once or twice. It's not the most exciting way to play, but it gets the job done safely.

The monsters that won't get killed by skeleton warriors are few and easily numbered:
1) Dragons, though SW last a long time
2) JonI though SW can last a long time
3) Liches though if it's not Kangaax SW can last a long time
4) The undead group in Firekraag's prison (the vampire group). Tough.
5) Greater Werewolve things. Too fast regen, though if you wade in yourself it's easy.
6) Some things in the elven city like Adamantine golems, etc.

It's a small list. Basically, it's probably harder doing SOA with a F/M just because of summoned monsters and the power of the song.

In TOB it's not quite clear that F/M are going to be more powerful. How great are level 7, 8, 9, 10 spells? Pretty great. So is "use any item." And so is being able to get a -19AC when using a shield, or base -13AC when dual-weilding. Make that -20 to -30 after invis, greater evasion, blur, etc. This is if you are NOT a Blade. As a blade it's way sick.

Honestly, TOB is so melee heavy that a -25AC is pretty close to being as good as level 7, 8, 9, 10 spells, i.e. you can stand in the middle of baddies and just fight. By the time they get through your ironskins they are dead. And the Bard can use the simulacrum helm to spin a copy off, and do all the scroll reading he wants.

Melee as a Bard is very safe, you just never get hit. Similarly using time stop and bunch of spells as a F/M is very safe, you never get hit. It don't matter much which you pick. They are both very safe.

Which would be easier in TOB? I think the Bard is easier, becuase of the traps (makes killing the biggest of the baddies easier). But F/M overall could probably whip a Blade in hand-to-hand. I think. I'm not sure. Depends who gets off the first time stop or something (reading a scroll vs. memorized, etc. boring stuff follows).

Both are good enough to whip TOB though, I'm positive. Well, I'm SURE about a bard.
User avatar
Sargon
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 10:00 pm
Contact:

Post by Sargon »

Two has proven a few things nicely, so I'll hit on the things that irk me about some people and their desire to compare:

"You need a spell sequencer to use stoneskin that way (level 7 and too high for your bard). THe best a bard can do is contingincey."

Scrolls. For the love of god, at least spend a few seconds thinking about what has been posted before replying with obviously flawed bits like this. Triggers hold up to 6th level spells - bards reach 6th level spells. Insert Trigger Scroll into quick items, click it, set your trigger up as you see fit. Repeat with Chain Contingancy, but there you lose 7th+ spells. I never missed 'em during ToB.

"As for recharging wands, *yawn* It doesn't matter. I always see my 1 charge wand of cloudkill and buy it back with 50. You earn so much money in SoA that pickpockets is NOT IMPORTANT."

Really? The moment you leave Irenicus' dungeon you have enough gold to buy 10k+ worth of wands? Neat trick. Explain that one to me, will you?

Fully charged wands make some of the earlier areas very easy to plow through, and have handy uses all throughout the game. Yes, you get a lot of gold (too much imo), but you don't leave the starting area with all that gold. You have to take action to get that gold. While you are taking action to get the gold to buy the wand back, the bard can be using the wand to make their life easier and pick up equipment.

Unlike Two, I relied on more personal melee for damage (Flail of Ages slow + -15 or lower AC...draw the picture), less on spells (mostly defensive, a few skull traps, breaches, etc.), and only really used summons for buying a few rounds (and the sheer humor in sending a bunch of gnolls up against a few demons...)

/shrug
Sargon the Blade
"So let me get this straight, you walked up to a dragon, totally naked, and challenged it to a duel??"
[url="http://www.attcanada.ca/~rebel_hq"]Writer's Block[/url]
User avatar
polaris
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by polaris »

Sorry, but you are INSISTING on comparing a bard to a F/Mu multi. Try the dual sometime. It is obscene. As for wands not being a problem, well they *aren't*! Take your time and you will get your needed money about 3x over. Sell your C-K wand with 1 change and buy it back after doing Trademeet or D'Arnise Keep. You will still have more than enough gold.


F/Mu duals have better THACOs, better hits,
equivalent ACS, don't have to waste scrolls for high level spells (and get 10th level Mu spells), BETTER spells (in terms of levels, and hits), and can use almost any item in the game. [Even a Bard with Use Any item, still can not spell cast in armor.]

I suppose Bards are ok for soloing, but in a group (or in general), the F/Mu dual is simply better. Why is this even an issue?

*sigh* Still not going to convince the diehards (yes you Sargon).

-Polaris
User avatar
polaris
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by polaris »

Sargon,

For the love of god, please both to *THINK* before posting a piece of tripe about how *I* don't know the rules.

Spell trigger is a level 8 spell. That means that a Bard MUST use a scoll to sequence 6th level spells. How many scrolls out there with spell trigger are out there? [Hint: NOT VERY MANY.] Your bard gets to use his spell trigger once perhapps twice in the game.

The F/Mu dual can have spell trigger in his book. How many times can he use it? As many times as needed.

Why are you even disputing this? Having to use scrolls (1 time items by definition) to get your high level facts is far more damaging than having to spend an extra bit of money recharging wands.


I will not convince you of anything Sargon. I have figure that out, but next time, try being a bit more polite (or gasp factual?)

-Polaris
User avatar
Craig
Posts: 4996
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Post by Craig »

From a roleplaying veiw a bard would win hand feet(and all other body part :eek :) down
I'm Devious

This is my Gift. This is my Curse. Who am I? I'm SpiderCraig
User avatar
Craig
Posts: 4996
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Post by Craig »

From a roleplaying veiw a bard would win hand feet(and all other body part :eek: )down

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: craig ]
I'm Devious

This is my Gift. This is my Curse. Who am I? I'm SpiderCraig
User avatar
two
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 11:00 pm
Contact:

Post by two »

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Sorry, but you are INSISTING on comparing a bard to a F/Mu multi. Try the dual sometime. It is obscene. As for wands not being a problem, well they *aren't*! Take your time and you will get your needed money about 3x over. Sell your C-K wand with 1 change and buy it back after doing Trademeet or D'Arnise Keep. You will still have more than enough gold.


F/Mu duals have better THACOs, better hits,
equivalent ACS, don't have to waste scrolls for high level spells (and get 10th level Mu spells), BETTER spells (in terms of levels, and hits), and can use almost any item in the game. [Even a Bard with Use Any item, still can not spell cast in armor.]

I suppose Bards are ok for soloing, but in a group (or in general), the F/Mu dual is simply better. Why is this even an issue?

*sigh* Still not going to convince the diehards (yes you Sargon).

-Polaris</STRONG>
Yes I agree a lot here. The dual-class IS gnarly. At the same time, the bard's Use Any Item is much better than you make it out to be. You can't match the Bard's AC, or weapon choice (pally weapons, etc.). You can get close, maybe within 3 ac points or something but...not all the way. That's before greater evasion, Blade AC spin bonus, etc. stuff a F/M can NOT get.

Same with Bard song. There are differences! I'm not sure Bard IS more powerful at all though. I'd put my money on the F/M! But there IS reason to argue. How can your F/M get AC-25 or -30? I'm not sure you realize how powerful this can be....

Anyway don't be shocked that Bard's have supporters. In SOA I would pick a Bard over a F/M, but not in TOB.
User avatar
polaris
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by polaris »

Bards IMO are OK only if you solo.

Why? Anything a bard can do (except songs with I regard as useless because they take him out of the action), any other class or dual (and easy duals at that!) can do better.

Use any item? Kensai(12)/Thief. Same goes with traps, pick pockets, etc.

Combat Magic? Kensai(9)/Mage. Is there *anyone* that doubts that this combo is a better combat Mage than the Bard? Didn't think so.

The problem with the Bard is that he is the jack of all trades and master of none. That is ok in SoA, but will get you killed in ToB.

That is why I am thumbs down on the Bard. In a PARTY he *is* useless.

-Polaris
User avatar
Sargon
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 10:00 pm
Contact:

Post by Sargon »

"Sell your C-K wand with 1 change and buy it back after doing Trademeet or D'Arnise Keep."

Do Trademeet or D'Arnise keep WITH the wands after walking out of Irenicus' Dungeon! You are completely and utterly ignoring WHEN you get items and abilities.

In essence, you are saying:

A Paladin is great when you have Carsomyr.

Which is all fine and dandy, but until you get the weapon, you don't have that specific advantage. Yes, the DC gets the advantage, but only after the passage of time, and only after killing XYZ and doing quests 123.

You insist on making the measurement of power at one stage of the game - the end game. However, you don't start a SoA/ToB game in the Throne of Bhaal fighting Melissan, now do you?

No, of course not, you progress there. The bard has one kind of progression, the dual-class has another. At some stages one has an advantage that the other does not.

Even at the end of things, if you measurement of power lay in the ability to eliminate foes, then obviously a bard can do it alone (as Two clearly demonstrated), or in a party (as I did).

During the final fights with Melissan, I was taking the attacks from the summoned creatures that Melissan threw at us, while Keldorn and Anomen beat her down.

Did I add something to that party? As pure warrior classes are going to be hit by creatures, they will take damage. They will need healing. Potions work, as do clerical spells. Your cleric isn't going to be getting off a Heal spell if they're under attack.

Everything except Melissan was attacking ME, so Anomen was free to attack Melissan or heal as necessary, since she was focused on either me or Keldorn. Imoen was able to cast spells with relative impunity, as did Aerie.

While I was taking those attacks (calling them HITS would be incorrect...), I was providing +4 to hit, damage and AC, immunity to fear (thx symbol fear and innate fear), stun (thx symbol stun), confusion (irrelevant), normal weapons (tee hee), and 5% magic resistance, and all of that could not be removed.

Was the song inconsequential? Maybe.

Was the 100s of damage done via traps (before her defenses fired up) to Melissan and her minions (exploding and spike traps) inconsequential? Maybe.

Did I mention I never needed a heal of any sort? Yes, it took a bit of work, and yes, I failed (meaning a party memeber died, I don't do the rez-in-battle bit) the first couple of times (on her 2nd appearance) because I tried a few different things (ooops. Time Stop...bad choice).

And maybe flaming ice goblins are shooting out of my -ss at this very moment.

Which do you find more believable?

I never did the fighter/mage dual, but I did play a swash/mage dual into the elven city, before ToB. Without going into a tirade about the Monty Haul expansion ToB is, that combination was fun so I put back the idea of playing the dual fighter/mage.

Unfortunately, few things interest me now regarding BG2, especially after seeing and reading about some of the heavy-cheese tactics ToB introduced, in my books that is. Whatever floats your boat they say. For me Fun != Perfection

So no, you won't convince me that a bard is useless in a party or solo. Aside from that, you haven't shown me anything I haven't already considered.

Oh, and don't take anything I say so personally. If sarcasm translates poorly in an online forum, why do you think any other emotion does? I've been around long enough to know...

:D

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: Sargon the Blade ]
Sargon the Blade
"So let me get this straight, you walked up to a dragon, totally naked, and challenged it to a duel??"
[url="http://www.attcanada.ca/~rebel_hq"]Writer's Block[/url]
User avatar
polaris
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by polaris »

You don't need those wands to do D'Arnise Keep or Trademeet. For that matter do the Dock's Theive's Guild quest. If you don't need the wands before you can afford to buy them back, then the ability to recharge the wand is POINTLESS.

'nuff said.

As for the rest, since you have NOT TRIED THE DUAL CLASS F/Mu, in my not so humble opinion, you have NO CLUE and NO BASIS to criticize. *I* at least have done both. Since you have not, your arguments are inconsequential.

-Polaris
User avatar
Gruntboy
Posts: 4574
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: London, UK.
Contact:

Post by Gruntboy »

Couldn't read all this - overload!!!

ICEWIND DALE BARDS

You get to choose the song they sing. At level 9 or so they have access to all available songs.

+ to hit and damage
+ to luck rolls
Immunity to fear
50% immunity to sound based spells
+ to AC and regenerate HP

I don't need cleric healing spells anymore. My Bard in IWD is back up mage support, 2-handed weapon damage dealer and lets my celric concentrate on offensive and defensive as opposed to healing spells.

And there are a huge number of bard musical instruments that cast awesome spells.

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: Gruntboy ]
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."

Enchantress is my Goddess.

Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
User avatar
Arocle
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Finland
Contact:

Post by Arocle »

I have done them both and IMHO bard rocks the boat here. Sure, he may not have the hp of the Mu, nor the base THAC0 of the fighter, but still he rocks.

Bard isn't supposed to be good at anything. Bard belongs to a group where he can sub in for any member (except cleric in AD&D, in 3rd ed he can sub a cleric too) and contribute in any small way he can. Bards aren't meant for solo. Bard aids the group and is the roleplayers choice. If fighter gets knocked down, bard can replace for a WHILE. If mage lost all breaches bard can sub in for WHILE. What unique do you find in a Fighter/Wizard? Not a thing. He's just a crossbreed. I think you all think just in powerplayterms. You obviously miss the fact that bard has lost almost all his pen&paper special abilities in conversion to computer. No need to argue here. Everyone plays the sort of character he wants, but polaris: you don't have to convince anyone that Mu is better. I really don't care. :rolleyes:
-I know why everyone would hate and despise me, but I have no idea why anyone would love and admire me-
Post Reply