Do bards cut it in BG2 or IWD

at99 · Post by **at99** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:39 pm

Bards dont seem to cut it in BG2 or IWD. A fighter/mage seems a better opt.

Anyone got an opinion on this.

Mr. Sprinkles · Post by **Mr. Sprinkles** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:46 pm

Bards are good if you know how to use them. Their song gives boosts to your party, but the real fun is using their spellcasting abilities strategically. Bards should have all the buff spells like Tensor's Transformation, Stoneskin, Mislead, Fireshield(Red/Blue), Mirrored Image, Blur, etc. Have your bard use those spells in combat (maybe launch them by using a scroll of Chain Contingency) and you'll change your mind about them. Bladesingers (fighter/mages) can do the same thing more effectively, but they don't get the bard song; your choice.

Sargon · Post by **Sargon** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:39 pm

Bah I say.

Bards have a huge advantage over a multiclass F/M from the level difference. All those wonderful spells last longer for a bard, more skins, more powerful remove/dispel magic, longer lasting shields, etc. Granted, some are capped at 20th level duration with ToB, a bard will be 30th+ level long before the dualclass gets close to the exp cap which is in the mid 20ies for a F/M.

With the blade kit you have a better THACO when Tenser'd compared to a multiclass F/M (higher level once again), full dual wield proficiency (2 attacks/round), and offensive and defensive spins. Offensive spins make for more damage (full damage every hit, compensation for the inability to specialize in weapons) and 3 attacks/round, defensive spins make for better damage absorbtion (skins/mirror images last longer because of the AC difference).

All that comes at the expense of some lore skill (doesn't matter, trust me) and pickpocketing (doesn't matter, you can steal whatever you want with potions of master thievery if you really need to, later it becomes unnecessary...).

Oooo.

There are ups and downs for both classes in ToB. A Blade can easily solo SoA if you spend some time reading those lists where people comment on "how worthless this spell is for a wizard". You tend to find them more useful.

No other class can have -30 AC. Blades can in ToB. I don't think Minsc or Sarevok would dare stand in front of a half dozen demons and try to absorb their attacks. Blades can do that and walk away without refreshing their stoneskins. A F/M might pull it off, but elemental damage and refreshing stoneskins/protection from magic weapon would be necessary.

It is well worth trying life as a Blade (solo) or Bard/Skald (party)...you just need to spend some time with the spells learning what kind of combinations work for bards.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:25 am

Bards are sounding better but with a f/m it just seems overall simpler to use. You fight or you cast with no holdback on each.

Those special scrolls for bards are hard to find .

Even in a 6 party like IWD I am still not convinced yet on having a bard.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:27 am

I am personally thumbs down on the bard. Anything (except the song) a bard can do, a *dual* class F/Mu can do better. IMO if you want to play a bard, you are usually better off with a dualed F (9 or 12)/Mu (main class). Such a combination (and it doesn't have to be the infamous Kensai/Mu) fights about as well as a fighter (esp w/Tensors) and can use all the neat buff spells better than a Mu or even a bard.

-Polaris

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 3:47 am

I agree with Sargon. The key here, folks, is the difference in levels. At the experience cap in SoA, Bards get 11 stoneskins while a F/M capping out at about 14th lvl as a M gets 6. Your talking almost 10 levels higher of a spellcaster. Add to that the Use Any Item ability a bard gets in ToB and your bard gets all those mage enhancing items such as Robe of Vecna, Ring of Wizardry, etc. In all, I think a bard is a great choice, the blade being the best kit IMHO, though they're not for the beginner. See Sargon's reasons. He spoke well.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:13 am

Read [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004726"]Two's thread[/url] on soloing a Skald. It's a real eye-opener on how powerful a bard can be, especially at the higher levels. He complained (I kid you not) that Watcher's Keep was too easy.

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: Sojourner ]

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:17 am

A bard is much better than a dual class Fighter/Mage. *Especially* on Tenser's, in contrary to what stated by polaris. The higher level is the reason, of course. Also, do not forget the Enhanced Bard Song - extremely strong. I hold the Blade as the best kit, especially if you like to fight with your bard. Defensive stance should be used with a Ring of Free Movement.

Sargon · Post by **Sargon** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 8:42 am

Few things - if you don't have high level triggers to rely on, you figure out to do things other ways.

Pfft.

Dual class fighter mage-smage.

The enhanced bard song gives you options you will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, get to pull of with a dual or multi-class Fighter/Mage.

You will never, ever, in a million years stand in front of a half dozen demons, adamantite golems or other assorted masters of much arse-kicking and not even lose your Stoneskins over the course of the rather long fight. No stacking blur. Just the Enhanced Bard Song, Defensive Spin, and balls the size of Minsc's heart. I held off the vast majority of the Balthazar's mercenary forces alone. I actually had to refresh my stoneskins once that time. The Ravager's pets were easily distracted, leaving it all awone. Poow wittle wavager.

Wizards are pathetic in the sight of a bard. Well, NPC wizards are at least. Against a PC mage things would be quite different I suspect, but in SoA/ToB they're just so plowable with the right weapons.

Divide and conqur in three easy steps. Get their attention, spin, sing. Repeat the last two steps as necessary. Watch with a sick grin as summons or NPCs pound the tar out of that hoarde of badguys.

Ya, I'll be reading about a dual-class fighter/mage or multi-class fighter-mage pulling that off. Without cowering behind chain contingencies, triggers, protection from magical weapons or other "Dress-wearing pansy" spells

Uh-huh.

Nope.

Nope.

No flaming goblins shootin' out of my ass.

Heck, and I didn't know two things about the bard song:

1 - You can twist it with other abilities (fighting or casting)
2 - It affects summons.

Bards are fun, not for beginners that's for certain. Can't comment on IWD Bards since I don't have IWD

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 9:25 am

I can comment on the Icewind Dale bards:

As they gain levels, they gain new bard songs to play. My favorites were:

1)Siren's Yearning: Enthralls enemies - This made clearing the lower levels of Dragon's Eye easy

2)War Chant of Sith: Allies gain +2 bonus to AC, 10% resistance to physical attacks, and regenerate 2 HP/round. This is valuable, considering how scarce healing items are.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:07 am

You are wrong about that guys. At very high levels (ToB), the Bard does *not* have a big level advantage over a dualed F/Mu. Add that to the fact that with a dualed F/Mu, Tensors stacks on top of your *fighter's* hits, THACO and AC, and you will change your tune. Sorry, but IMO Dualed F/Mus beat out single classed bards (or singled class anything for that matter) any day.

-Polaris

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:15 am

The Bard's level advantage disappears in ToB. Spells are capped at 20. At high levels, gaining another level means 2 extra Hit Points and a trap. That's it. Fighter/Mage (especially the multi) gets loads of useful stuff up to the cap.

And how good is Use Any Item in a party of six? Are you really going to give the Robe of Vecna and Carsomyr to a Bard when you have a Mage and a Paladin?

Valorhan · Post by **Valorhan** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:35 am

For everyone out there that thinks bards suck are all totally wrong. They also have a BIG advantage over Fighter/Mages.

Heres why. The Blade can put 2 slots on two-weapon prof. and they can be proficient in every single weapon in the game. That means a 30th level Blade can wield the rune-hammer and celestial fury (just an example) consecutively. That's not all, topped with a Tenser's Transformation, the Blade will basically be unstoppable.

Additionally, the defensive spin move for the Blade is probably one of the best special abilities in the game. The reason being, the Blade can reach an amazing AC of
-30. Not many things will be able to hit a
-30 AC if you ask me.

A maxed out Blade could easily defeat a maxed out Fighter/Mage with a defensive spin + tenser's transformation combo...

Sargon · Post by **Sargon** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:13 pm

Ok. I hereby pose the challenge to you Polaris:

Steal the Ring of Regeneration from Ribald without using a familiar, because if you chose the "wrong" alignment...

/snicker

Also, show me a dual-classed Fighter Mage with an AC of -30. This means a Bard will be hit 5% of the time in almost every situation, -11 THACO is necessary to even start landing non-critical hits (excluding combat bonuses)

How about casting an undispellable haste than makes every hit do maximum damage, which really works well when Tensered if you're paranoid about your THACO. And this nicely compensates for the inability to specialize in weapons (+2 THACO +2 Damage), and since you can't specialize in weapons, you have a broad range of weapons selections. Like, oh:

Axe of the Unyielding/Flail of Ages,
Flail of Ages/Celestial Fury,
Adjatha the Drinker/Arbane's Shortsword,
The Equalizer/Arbane's Shortsword,
Jhor the Bleeder/Flail of Ages,
Flail of Ages/Defender of Easthaven.
Crom Fayr/Celestial Fury
Crom Fayr/Flail of Ages
Boomerang Dagger/Longsword +1
...

All these setups have advantages and disadvantages, and are spread over the course of SoA and ToB.

Oh, and protect your entire party from Fear, Stun, Confusion, 5% Magic Resistance, Immunity from Normal Weapons (I shouldn't even bother mentioning this aspect, no real effect by the time you get it...), and +4 to hit, to damage and -4 to AC for your entire party and summons. 10% MR and a nice 10 AC bonus to yourself to boot. Now that I know it lasts long enough to provide a window of opportunity to attack...sheesh.

Don't even go into traps. They're just waaaay to cheesy.

Once you can convince me you can do these things, then I'll admit that a dual-classed Fighter Mage can do everything a bard can, and better.

Yes Multi-class or Dual-Class characters can do some thing that a bard cannot, but a bard is a Jack-of-All-Trades, Master-of-None. Play a bard like they are a master of a trade, and you'll get spanked.

Sure you won't be handing Carsomyr to a bard, but the Purifier makes a nice offhand weapon for a bard if your Paladin is using Carsomyr (Sure, you can only upgrade one...). If your wizard is relying on triggers/chain contingencies for the first few rounds of combat while your bard is casting other spells, how does that improved casting speed help the wizard?

Ironically, I only ever used UAI to wear a shield (Dragonscale Shield), Helm (Dragonscale Helm) and a sword (The Purifier). There are lots of things I could've done differently.

Bards are fun. Everyone should try one before playing the min/max game

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:47 pm

<disclaimer>
Purely for the sake of discussion, not to bash Bards (I think they're fun)...

Defensive Spin is great. The Bardsong is great (especially the Improved version) if woven between spells or attacks (having one party member not participating in combat is lame).
</disclaimer>

Originally posted by Sargon the Blade:
How about casting an undispellable haste than makes every hit do maximum damage

Fighters have that extra attack all the time. Kensai have Kai to do maximum damage.

Originally posted by Sargon the Blade:
this nicely compensates for the inability to specialize in weapons (+2 THACO +2 Damage)

That would hardly be the equivalent of the Kensai bonus or Rage.

Originally posted by Sargon the Blade:
since you can't specialize in weapons, you have a broad range of weapons selections.

Not being able to specialize is considered an advantage now?

For Fighter/Mages, we offer:
[*]Grand Mastery
[*]Loads of Hit Points
[*]Good combat ability without the need for Tenser's
[*]Greater Whirlwind Attack
[*]Planetars
[*]Time Stop
[*]Improved Alacrity
[*]Power Word Blind
[*]Imprisonment
[*]Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency
[*]Clones!

I'd say that measures up to a Bardsong, Defensive Spin, fast levelling and picking pockets.

Sargon · Post by **Sargon** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 3:21 pm

Fighters have that extra attack all the time. Kensai have Kai to do maximum damage.

How often does 1 attack a round make a difference?

Kai lasts a round and a half, Offensive Spin lasts 4 full rounds.

That would hardly be the equivalent of the Kensai bonus or Rage.

Nope, but twisted in with the basic Blade song or the enhanced (which is functionally Rage immunities) and it comes close enough to make the difference small enough not to worry about.

Not being able to specialize is considered an advantage now?

Bards aren't good at specialization, they're good at generalization. The advantage is you aren't focused - how many weapon skills can a capped pure warrior or dual-classed fighter/mage be a GM in? How many nifty weapons do you put aside because you suffer the non-proficency penalty?

Pound for pound?

For Fighter/Mages, we offer:

Grand Mastery
Which eqautes to what precisly? I'll arrogantly use the BG2 manual for reference, knowing full well its probably wrong but (These aren't the AD&D rules, GM is much better than its inception in BG2):

Proficency +0 hit +0 damage +0 speed +.5 attacks
Specialization +1 hit +2 damage +0 speed
Mastery +2 hit +2 damage +0 speed
High Master +2 hit +2 damage -2 speed
Grandmastery +2 hit +3 damage -1 speed

So a GM has a +2 hit +3 damage -3 speed and half an attack over a bard. In an offensive spin, the difference is +0 hit +1 damage -3 speed and half an attack in the bard's favor.

Ignoring of course, the warriors additional attacks, which come out to 1 full attack at 14th level (?) and half an attack from specialization. So 2.5 attacks to 1 (no DW), 3.5 attacks to 2 (DW), 4.5 attacks to 3 (Hasted).

Of course, this assumes the warrior puts points into Dual Wielding, which then in essence limits what weapons they will use.

Make sense?

Loads of Hit Points
HPs matter?

Good combat ability without the need for Tenser's
THACO of 3 or 4 by the end of SoA (with normal base 18 strength, no girdles!), and I had little problems hitting anything. ToB was a different story, but most times its Mass_of_annoying_creatures that are easily hit and one or two with decent AC.

Greater Whirlwind Attack
Use any Item. Enhanced Bard Song.

Planetars
Spike traps.

Time Stop
Time Stop traps.

Improved Alacrity
Exploding Traps (duplicates the effect of Comet or Dragon's Breath)

Power Word Blind, Imprisonment, Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency, Clones!

Scrolls!

Oddly enough, the Ioun Stone in the undead section in ToB grants an "extra" 7th level spell to bards, yet it doesn't actually work. I don't have any AD&D books left (too many moves in the past few years, lost a wack of stuff I've been hoarding), so I can't check to see if Bard spellcasting is capped at 6th level spells or not. Its a shame since all we do gain in ToB is the Enhanced Song, Cheesy traps, and a few spells. /boggle

If you want to talk cheese like using clones to read scrolls, or the Robe of Vecna/Amulet of Power/Improved Alacrity and Timestop, well, I can counter with spike traps that punch through every protection - yes you have to know beforehand, but when you walk into a huge cavernous room, do you expect to run into Kobolds or Dragons? We can arbitrarily define value any way you and I see fit.

I'm not saying Fighter/Mages multi/dual classes aren't bad. They're pretty good with ToB, but without ToB, you'd be hard pressed to convince me of a F/M's superiority over a straight Bard.

But let's not forget the bard's most useful ability!

NEVER HAVING TO MEMORIZE IDENTIFY!

woowoo!

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 3:36 pm

Some Points:

A Mage with a 19 INT (easily doable in ToB) with a F dual class doesn't need more than 1-2 identifies....they don't have the Lore of a straight bard...but then again, neither does the 'blade' *snicker*

Oh, did I *forget* to mention that you get a free ring of regen in Chapter 4....not to mention a ioun stone that regens MUCH better (don't forget cloak of the sewers). Troll form is great for recovering hit points.

Finally as others have already mentioned, the Dual classed (not multiclassed) F and Mu *has* a higher spell casting level in ToB than any bard....and your typical THACOs will be near zero or NEGATIVE.

Don't get me wrong, a good bard can be powerful, but anyone that says that a straight bard can stand up to a dual classed F/Mu (espcially the Kensai (9 or 12)/Mu) is IMO simply smoking crack.

-Polaris

P.S. Tensor's is AWESOME for the dual because it doubles the *fighter* hits *and* reduces the THACO from it's FIGHER level based on the number of mage levels you have.

Sargon · Post by **Sargon** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:13 pm

Yes, if you ignore the whole time concept.

"A Mage with a 19 INT (easily doable in ToB)"

I'm guessing sarcasm is lost on you, yes? Not having to cast a level one freakin' spell isn't an advantage...

But yes, you can get 19 INT in ToB "easily" by going through 4 levels of Watcher's Keep.

"Oh, did I *forget* to mention that you get a free ring of regen in Chapter 4."

Yes, that sure helps getting you TO chapter 4.

"...not to mention a ioun stone that regens MUCH better"

Howzatwork?

How is 2hps/minute better than 1hp/6 seconds?
Now, 2hps/minute < 10hps/minute yes?

Or are you talking about the other one from Sendai.

That one REALLY helps you through chapter 2 and 3. *nudge nudge wink wink*

"...Troll form is great for recovering hit points."

At the expense of AC. Yes, its nice, and it stacks with the ring of regeneration, both of which the bard can get and wear.

"Finally as others have already mentioned, the Dual classed (not multiclassed) F and Mu *has* a higher spell casting level in ToB than any bard....and your typical THACOs will be near zero or NEGATIVE."

Access to higher level spells you mean? Yes. So? Try living WITHOUT them. Solo. Its not as hard as you think.

THACO's benefits drop off after a while. Of course, you'll need that heafty negative THACO to hit a defensive blade...

Once more, when you're leveling up from the level 1 Magic User to surpass the first class level, the Bard is gaining exp, clearing areas and will be ahead of you time-wise in the game.

Power is relative to position in time. The bard can be into Spellhold before you're fighting Bohdi. Unless you buy your levels with scrolls.

Of course, the Bard can do that too. So I can't cast 7th, 8th or 9th level spells. Scribe the useless ones, keep the scrolls for other ones.

Except Bards don't pay for them. Nor do I pay to recharge wands.

"Don't get me wrong, a good bard can be powerful, but anyone that says that a straight bard can stand up to a dual classed F/Mu (espcially the Kensai (9 or 12)/Mu) is IMO simply smoking crack."

I wouldn't be so arrogant to believe such things. The situation defines how things happen, and the greater the flexibility the more options you have. Bards don't have BETTER options, Bards have DIFFERENT options compared to a Dual Classed Fighter/Mage. We can rock/paper/scissors 'till we're blue in the face, but does it really matter?

Not to me.

Besides, a little crack never hurt anyone.

Much.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 8:21 pm

You have to be careful with sarcasm...it doesn't translate well in most electronic media.

You are correct that we could argue this all day...and there is no point. The ioun stone I was referring to can be found in the Umar hills quest. The cloak of the sewers is good for recovering hits AFTER the battle. [In fact *all* regen is good for that and my real point was that you get regen for any character quite early....so I have found that pick pockets is a nearly useless skill.]

I was NOT refering to an inability to cast higher (7-10) level spells, although that does hurt the Bard severely. I was *referring* to the fact that your *casting* level tops at 20 for the bard, but is unlimited for the F/Mu dual...a *very* important point in ToB.

I also point out that many of the Bard special abilities in SoA require the Bard to sit out of combat (much like turning undead). This is ok for a backliner like Aerie (I like to have Aerie turn undead when she has nothing better to do), but a 'blade' is a mid-rank character and needs to be contributing each round.

I also point out that time is *not* an issue. Except for very plot specific events, the game doesn't care how much you rest or how long you take [so this is a non-advantage for the Bard]. Unless you are soloing and need to have a wide lattitude, I find the bard does everything so-so. Bah! For killing things and using magic, the F/Mu wins hands down. [IMO you are better off specializing rather than generalizing, and the F/Mu dual is a combat specialist...and important point!]

All said, I find the Bard to be an overall weak choice. I would rather have a Mu and a Monk rather than two bards (of any type).

-Polaris

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 8:31 pm

I forgot a point in my prior post....a side point really. If you are playing a dualed F/Mu, then you *should* have an 18 Int thoughout most of SoA. Marry that with potions of Genius, and spells (and lore) are not a problem. If you take the 'good' path in hell, you *start* ToB with a 19 int and that will go up to 20 after watchers keep.

-Polarie