Finders,Looters..

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:32 am

What worries me most about this, is that it was a perfectly predictable disaster, and measures could have been taken:
- in the short term: relief goods and logistics could have been prepositioned within the region days before this happened. Evacuation efforts, such as we see now, should have been in place before the storm hit. As the situation is now, the well-off could get away while the poor remained.
- in the middle-long term: warnings by civil engineers about the weakness of New Orleans's defences against such a catastrophy have been uttered since years. No investments have been done to protect the city in better ways.
- in the long term: the gradual disappearance of wetlands (buffer zones for disasters as these), the encroachment of urban sprawl in utterly risky zones and the risk that these pose were all known and acknowledged as being risk factors without any action being undertaken.
This whole thing horrifies even more since New Orleans is one of only three cities I visited in the US (the other two being Chicago and NY) and the one I liked the best, for many reasons, but of course also for its "mardi-gras" atmosphere; and the way this is exactly the reason the christian-right is abusing this and calling Katrina a "Punishment from God". Sometimes I wonder whether that ex-colleague of mine was right when he said that "chrétien" (christian) and "crétin" (moron) were related.

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:59 pm

I've heard tales of people taking potshots at hospital rescue helicopters and police. Apparently, the looters were better armed than the police are. So much for the right to own arms being for protection of the people.

Looting always occurs after major natural disasters, but the situation in NO seems to be worse than everywhere else. Maybe it's because the Asian Tsunami left little to loot, but it's interesting to note that there doesn't seem to be anything in NO to contrast against the looting, raping, and killing.

Realistically, the majority of the people everywhere in any large, stable nation aren't prepared for this kind of thing. Can you honestly say the majority of the British, French, Chinese, Japanese, etc could handle this kind of thing?

How about yes? Every summer, serious floodings occur in the two major Chinese rivers, this year more serious than most. Chinese emergency response has always been prompt, all the more so considering the rampant corruption. Japanese emergency response leaves the US in the dust - they've been hit by worse natural disasters than this, and they recover MUCH faster.

It's not as if the US is new to natural disasters, you know. The entire west coast lies on the ring of fire, it's the only country I know where there is a tornado alley, and storms in the US are worse than most countries.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:47 pm

[QUOTE=Rookierookie]How about yes? [/QUOTE]

Well then, we'll just chalk that up to idiocy on the part of the government and the majority of the population. Not that it's any big surprise given the history of this place, right?

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:41 pm

I was watching the BBC today, reports of military aid choppers being driven off by sporadic gunfire from armed mobs on the streets... they left fearing the safety of their people...

For God's sake, your the military! You are the army. You are the guys with the big guns, the training, and the discipline. When you get shot at, you keep going, close ranks, and carry on! It's a danger of the profession. I can sympathize that no one really wants to be shot at, but if you signed your life on the dotted line, you more or less waive the right to worry about your well being when doing your job.

That bothered me some, also, head of homeland security stated that "he only heard about the situation in the Super Dome the other day". My question, does he ever watch CNN?? People are being raped in the very areas the government told them to go to be safe.

The longer this goes on, the more tragic it is.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:33 am

The Guardian wrote:A man walked past the bodies dragging a pallet loaded with big bottles of ginger ale, some plates and a frying pan. To the rest of America watching the tragedy unfold on their televisions, he was one of the looters, denounced by President Bush.

But to the people inside the convention centre, he was one of a band of heroes keeping them alive. "The people who were going into the stores would give us water and food, said Edna Harris, Henry Carr's aunt. "There would be ladies with babies and they had no milk, and these guys would break in and bring them milk."

Kyle Turner, a 28-year-old dishwasher, was looking for some clean water. "My son is six months old and we got no milk. I just got two cans of powdered milk, and I need some water for it," he said.

In addition to the constant squalor, the thousands left in the centre had to contend with the fear of gangs of young men. Everybody talked about it. One woman said she held her children's hands tight all night because there were stories circulating of thugs who took young girls and boys to the upper stories of the centre and raped them. It was impossible to confirm the rumours but there was no mistaking the fear they inspired.

This is part of a piece on the front page of the British newspaper "the Guardian".

I do agree with most of what has been said here, but I wonder if there is an element of propaganda about the reports of the "victims'" behaviour ? It is not unknown for officials who are failing in their duty to blame the people for the problems. Perhaps most of the people are behaving better than has been reported ?

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:36 am

It's hard to imagine the official response being very much worse, you know.

By the way,
http://simcityneworleans.ytmnd.com/

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:37 am

[QUOTE=Obsidian]That bothered me some, also, head of homeland security stated that "he only heard about the situation in the Super Dome the other day". My question, does he ever watch CNN?? People are being raped in the very areas the government told them to go to be safe.
[/QUOTE]

This has been bothering me for some time. The CNN link I provided repeatedly quoted the head of that branch of Homeland Security dealing with the crisis, Brown in complete contradiction to all the facts-on-the-ground over every issue. I came to the conclusion that, like all good neo-cons everywhere, this man simply believes that if the news contradicts what he wants to hear, the news sources are liberal traitors--this, despite the fact that slightly more than 90% of the major news media which is nationwide or in US metro areas is in conservative hands. (Thanks to the removal of anti-monopoly media ownership laws enacted during the first neo-con administration, that of Reagan.) The administration that hired Brown, after all, has been simply ignored whatever has been said about problems in Iraq, and suffered one major problem afer another. Their only shield has been the complete willingness of the US public to regard all matters outside the continent as somehow unreal--an attitude I think they inherited from the British (who never quite thought of themselves as part of the European continent for a very long period of history). But New Orleans is home turf, the media can't be controlled like the government did during the Iraq invasion, and people are thinking, "This could happen to me, too." Neo-con zealots can't afford to ignore reality, there, though Brown's been trying.

giles337 · Post by **giles337** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:04 am

[QUOTE=Fiona]This is part of a piece on the front page of the British newspaper "the Guardian".

<SNIP>

I do agree with most of what has been said here, but I wonder if there is an element of propaganda about the reports of the "victims'" behaviour ? It is not unknown for officials who are failing in their duty to blame the people for the problems. Perhaps most of the people are behaving better than has been reported ?[/QUOTE]

A story in the News OF The World also reported a ring of american men, standing in a ring protecting two english tourists who were at a threat of rape... I find such stories hard to belive, and probably just money spinners for the "victims"

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:06 am

I will say only what I do know - that most of the footages I see consists of either blacks or white, very rarely with both, and most of the time, the people on screen were predominantly black.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:25 am

The entire ordeal sickens me. The ineptitude of the system in Louisiana and the federal response is mind-boggling in scope. All this past week, the agency I work for has been scurrying to respond to requests by arranging beds for elderly and frail persons in the region of this state that borders Louisiana. The sheer numbers begs certain questions to be asked...questions that would be too lengthy to go into in just one post.

If what I see regarding National Guard units withdrawing in the face of fire from armed gangs is true, then my anger level has risen several notches.

Every one of them has gone through basic training, and if they don't know the difference between when they are dressed in civilian clothes and when they are outfitted in battle dress uniforms, then it's time to deploy air assault infantry or the 75th Rangers to neutralize the thugs on the streets. For that matter, a police SWAT team could do the job.

EDIT - There's only one contingency I can think of that would make it necessary for those National Guard personnel to withdraw under fire. It's very likely that they were not issued ammunition nor briefed that they might encounter any sort of armed resistance. This thought just occured to me, and based upon what I've seen of the overall federal response, it would not surprise me at all if these Guard units were sent in uninformed and unprepared. They probably had no idea they would be fired on.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:28 am

For those of you doubting the mentions of rape, I have to let you in on a statistic that I personally know of. Out of the 10 girls I've dated, 4 were rape victims. Of all of the two females sleeping in my appartment right now, both lost their virginity to a rapist. Of all of my female friends, 7 out of the 11 or 12 I can think of right now have been raped. As cynical as I can be, I have to say, I do believe those reports of rape down there given the numbers that effect me alone among the girls I know around me. I don't need any studies done to be told there's a serious problem with that on any given day, it's all hit home way too often for me. In the situation down in New Orleans, people are stressed, and way too many people are stuck together. You can't choose who you happen to be pressed against, there's simply not enough room. Chaos rules down there, and this doesn't shock me at all that it would be happening, as twisted and disturbing as it happens to be.

As far as the "looters", I know if I saw a grocery store full of food, my house was flooded, the government had failed in keeping me safe and I was starving I know I would not at all hesitate to take what I wanted. When the government you are under takes your money, claims to be above you to protect you, keep order, and provide and it does NOT, fails in all of this...I think that means you are no longer obliged to obey the officials of the government until that is righted, no?

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:09 am

[QUOTE=Magrus]When the government you are under takes your money, claims to be above you to protect you, keep order, and provide and it does NOT, fails in all of this...I think that means you are no longer obliged to obey the officials of the government until that is righted, no?[/QUOTE]
I do agree, mostly, but then there's a difference between doing what you need to survive and just going all-out. Besides, the government is trying to restore order now, right? It would be in everyone's best interests if the looters and thugs backed down and let them try to help instead of hindering the process. I can understand raiding a grocery store and stealing food during a situation such as this. But jacking cars and stealing other unnecessary items goes well beyond what you need to survive. Yes, if the government fails to protect you, you need to protect yourself, but some of what's going on isn't about protecting one's self; it's about striking back and venting frustrations, and taking things you couldn't ordinarily get.

After all, you said if it were you who were in that situation, you wouldn't hesitate to rob a grocery store to get what you wanted. But would you stop with only food and what was truly necessary to survive?

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:20 am

Hmm, what is needed for survival for me here is different than what is needed down there. If I were there, sure, I'd steal a car, load it full of food, stuff my family in it and take off as fast as I could. You have to consider the rationale behind these people as well. For years they've been asking for money to prevent such a thing from happening. They didn't get it. They've lost everything, and that TV sitting in a store window represents a bit of revenge to them at the moment. It might not be the governments property, but the government abandoned them years ago when they requested aid, and the government says not to take that TV, because it's wrong. Taking it and cursing the president is a way to make some people feel better about their horrible situation.

I don't think this is being handled well at all. Where's the mass rush of supplies, people, the halting of private companies use of their planes and boats and such, to set up a quicker way out for those people out of there? If this isn't fixed soon, we may see some disease killing thousands of people there pop up. Where's the government's program to deal with dangerous virus and disease problems? Those people should be there, now, before we see everyone getting infected and contaminated and dying in that city.

The way this is being handled by the government, it seems as though it's being looked at as an irritating distraction from taking over Iraq. That, will get through to the people. If nothing is done about it now...well, it will be remembered for the next time something like this happens. I'd say this is a step towards people rioting all over and demanding a very different way things are run here.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:46 am

[QUOTE=Magrus]The way this is being handled by the government, it seems as though it's being looked at as an irritating distraction from taking over Iraq. That, will get through to the people. If nothing is done about it now...well, it will be remembered for the next time something like this happens. I'd say this is a step towards people rioting all over and demanding a very different way things are run here.[/QUOTE]

It's just a shame the media is in the hands of arch-conservatives like Rupert Murdock, because I'd love to hear that press conference quote again where Bush proudly stated a number of days ago that he was turning down all offers of international help, since the United States didn't need any.

Zealots are so selectively blinded; they should never be allowed to run newspaper stands, let alone governments. We are a theocratic nation run by radical neo-con imams.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:19 pm

My mom was watching parts of the concert the other night that was to raise aide for New Orleans. Kanye West--some rapper who's apparently big now--said, "President Bush doesn't like blacks" on national TV, and got cut off right after that. I almost wish I'd seen it.

Bush saying he doesn't think the U.S. needs international aide... god he's just a stupid git, ain't he. Trying to make us Americans look too proud to accept aide from other people, and now people are suffering for it. A lot of people were for sending aide to Indonesia, and there are certainly people in the world who honestly want to help us. Bush is an idiot for rejecting their help, and that rejection is exacerbating the entire situation. And looking at how the supplies have been trickling into New Orleans, and how those supplies have been commandeered by a select few, it's obvious we needed that aide (besides, the more supplies we get from other people, doesn't that mean the less the government has to spend itself? Isn't the aide they'd be getting internationally going to be stuff donated by people and be free for Bush?). And because of his pride, people have to suffer. What a man we have as President.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:34 pm

That doesn't surprise me at all having the news suddenly cut off. I've seen random things on local news channels said around here that suddenly have "technical difficulties" when a citizen denounces certain things. This was a while ago, probably around the time of Bush Sr. being in office if I remember correctly. A long time ago anyways. Oh, lets not forget those clips of war footage from Desert Storm that suddenly got cut off when played and were never seen, nor heard of again. The news has been owned and controlled by the government for a long, long time.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:21 pm

@ Chanak - Agreed, I don't know the american system, but it's unlikely the CF would be armed when doing civilian aid programs, in addition, I don't know what the ROE where for those troops. All said, I agree, they should grab the weapons they need from the armouries, and start doing combat patrols as per FIBUA protocols.

About the international aid... really, there are no countries in the immediate area who could do much to help. Canada has a SAR team down there, as well as paramedics, doctors, and nurses. The only practical help anyone could give the states is expertise in disaster relief operations, which I doubt would be taken well.

It's sad about the media, land of free speech and all that.
It's interesting to see in a nation that traditionally falls into line behind it's leaders during crisis, it's now growing increasingly opposed to its own leadership.

I think looting comes down to alignment

Chaotic and neutral goods will be alright, Lawful goods are going to have trouble surviving, and the other alignments will take what they please, though lawful neutral will make note and pay the owner back later.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:41 pm

Well, how many countries can truly claim unbiased news to begin with? I personally was never a fan of the news: when I was a kid, it was because it was always bad, as I got older, I learned why bad news was always shown and that made me detest the media more, and as an adult, I've learned that the media is never unbiased (by even showing certain news events, the way they phrase what happened, shows bias).

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:43 pm

In more recent news, first casualties as police fight back against thugs and brigands.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4214232.stm

Hoo ah

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:23 am

Apparently, on one hand the National Guard shot a 16-year old who was looking for help for a raped and assaulted woman, and on the other hand they were caught playing cards and being generally leisurely.