Finders,Looters..

[Fezek]

I have noticed a dire lack of information about the storm kicked up about AP and AFP's description of two photo's of people "carrying" goods in a river in New Orleans. I've found info from blogs and boards but nothing from regular newsfeeds.

Has anybody else noticed anything?

Your opinions please.

[Xandax]

I saw the mention on another site ...

Now - I can only find one of the images on the source where it was:
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/ ... 8301530%3E

There was a similar photo located here:
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/phot ... oma_photo1

which now is removed, displaying a "white" couple with the caption that they "found" foodstuff in a grocery store, whereas with the "black" person in the former picture had looted a grocery store.

This is the statement from Yahoo about the images....
http://news.yahoo.com/page/photostatement

[fable]

The BBC World Service is devoting the better part of each hour to reports about and from New Orleans--more time, in fact, than they gave the disaster during the hurricane. Which actually makes sense, since the human-made disaster is actually shaping up as something far worse, for being preventable from the start. There's strong evidence, if the reports are to believed, that next to no aid is actually reaching New Orleans, though plenty appears to be gathering in the countryside right around it.

One of the remarks being frequently heard is that the National Guard comes disproportionally from the South (because of the South's tradition of military service and pride); so most of those troops, that would be protecting law and order in New Orleans and the distribution of goods, are now in Iraq. There were actually 200+ guardsmen brought back from Iraq yesterday, and sent to New Orleans.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=fable]There were actually 200+ guardsmen brought back from Iraq yesterday, and sent to New Orleans.[/QUOTE]
I bet they'd rather be in Iraq. (One National Guardsman actually said so.)

[Magrus]

I do believe this disaster will alter a lot of viewpoints for the citizens of this country about the way the government works. One of my roommates made the comment last night of "did you notice in those videos that the majority of the people still stranded were black, and the absence of white people in need?" It made me think back on the video, and I don't remember seeing many people who weren't black stranded at all.

Take a look at this http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/k ... index.html

And see the moron speak to the people javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/politics/2005/09/02/sot.bush.new.orleans.cnn');

And this one (Warning-12 minutes long)
javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2005/09/02/wwl.nagin.intv.affl');

Now, what does this say about "the greatest country in the world"? They pulled a few hundred of our soldiers from foreign soil, when we have a major crisis in this country, in OUR country, that is killing hundreds of people? This is being handled very, very badly. In fact, this may be enough to show anyone who wants to get even with the US with a violent reprisal, that this country is not all able to protect itself and their own people any longer. What kind of message does that send to the people that the Bush administration has been hunting down?

[Cuchulain82]

While I do agree with everything said thus far (spec. Fable and Mag)... the fact is that New Orleans is... well... below sea level. It may sound dumb, but you have to at least expect that people there would have considered this at some point.

For example, I live in NYC and I'm happy, but I know that an act of terrorism is a threat at any given moment. It is a risk I am, at this point, willing to accept.

(The flip side of this is that the city, state, and local governments really have no excuse for not being better prepared)

[Ravager]

the fact is that New Orleans is... well... below sea level. It may sound dumb, but you have to at least expect that people there would have considered this at some point.

I think it has happened before. Army engineers had to blow a hole in one of the levees to let the water out.

There's not that much that can be done about it. It comes down to a choice on whether people want to abandon their homes or what's left of them at least.

[Obsidian]

In all fairness to the American government, more than 200 000 sq Km have been affected by the storm. That's logistically mind boggling. There are 20 000 people in the sports dome alone. Admitedly it's taking far to long, and the conditions are squalid, worse than the third world one BBC reporter states http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4208986.stm

To me, this shows how utterly unprepared our culture is for mass disaster.
I'm not saying the army, the government, or emergency response teams, I'm saying the very people of society.

Ask yourselves, if you lost everything but the clothes on your back, could you survive? Do you have the skills? I'd wager not, most people don't know how to make their own shelter, fire, find their own food, even defend themselves. Anyone remember reading those disaster preparedness manuals that recommend keeping food, water, and spare clothes ready to go at all times? I keep my military ruck sack packed at all times, which has a uniform, spare boots, two days rations ready to go.

What's most tragic in my opinion in New Orleans, is the conduct of people. Looting, violence, rape, shootings, somehow the chemical plant just exploded, it's tragic. People are going to die. The national guard WILL start shooting people. Martial law is in effect. And it's not necessary if people just acted like decent human beings.
There's nobody out there helping the helpless. The sick and the elderly have just been abandoned, to slowly die in their wheel chairs, without the meds they need.

Thousands will die from Diabetes without their stores of insulin, hundreds of asthmatics will fall, thousands more from infections and illness. How many died of drowning I wouldn't guess.

Excuse the rant, but my point is that more people are dying because of ineptitude, dependance, and lack of preparation at the individual level than because of a delayed government response. It's just too huge.

Compare this to the tsunami disaster 6 months ago, aid is still being distributed, and frankly, most of it went to the rich.

Middle class America just isn't used to hardship, and lacks the ability to adapt and survive.

[fable]

Agreed, Obsidian. I would only add that Americans have long been educated to grab whatever they can in any situation: the indiivdual comes first, and social responsibility doesn't matter at all. No politician will comment on this, since that would be conssidered anti-American, but a disaster likes New Orleans shows how a group of determined individuals will act when the restraining influence of law is missing.

[Magrus]

Realistically, the majority of the people everywhere in any large, stable nation aren't prepared for this kind of thing. Can you honestly say the majority of the British, French, Chinese, Japanese, etc could handle this kind of thing?

As to threats of national disaster's near me, I can't think of any realistic threats that are of a natural nature around me. We had a warning of getting a tornado near here recently, that was very strange for this area. There's a tiny risk of a stupendous earthquake occurring for the first time in ages where I live. We get nasty blizzards and ice storms every so often. The closest thing to risk of disaster near me is the nuclear power plant being bombed, not anything natural that is on such a scale.

Granted, this thing wasn't expected, it happened, and there's a delay in time to take care of things. If you watch that video in the last link I posted however, you can see the frustration apparent with the Mayer there. Not enough is being done here. It's simply not being taken seriously enough.

Crap, links didn't work. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin. ... index.html for the article, and video mentioned above is linked in the article.

The one above that, Bush's video, here's the article
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin. ... index.html

I still say, if you take away what is happening now, and look at this in a viewpoint from people against this country, it shows that this country is not at all prepared for any sort of attack on it. It may be able to blow another country to a scarred patch of dirty, but it would be just as vulnerable as any other place on the planet to a similar attack. I say that is quite dangerous given the stance the government has taken with the military the past few years.

Also, the violence and looting, in the audio clip with Ray Nugin (Mayor of New Orleans), he mentions the majority of those committing violent crimes are drug addicts, and the "looting" all over is mostly people looking for food, blankts, supplies, etc. That is something else to keep in mind. Even rational people break down in a situation such as this, if help doesn't come soon for those people, it may end up there's a violent reprisal across the board above and beyond those addicts and gangs. The whole area may tear through whatever the national guard has put up and seek to "get even" for a lack of support.

I know that personally, if I was say 40 years old, I'd lost my wife and kids, I'd paid taxes out of every pay check I'd gotten the last 22 years of my life, and I see that all my tax money has gone to doing things in OTHER countries, and not this one...I would be very, very angry and completely irrational right now.

[Luis Antonio]

[QUOTE=fable]Agreed, Obsidian. I would only add that Americans have long been educated to grab whatever they can in any situation: the indiivdual comes first, and social responsibility doesn't matter at all. No politician will comment on this, since that would be conssidered anti-American, but a disaster likes New Orleans shows how a group of determined individuals will act when the restraining influence of law is missing.[/QUOTE]

I was talking with my father about that... we brazilians would hug to each other and try to share what we have. We're having our deal of houses being taken away by hurricanes too (400 houses 200 km from my house have lost their roofs, and 200 fallen to the ground) but people seem by far more willing to help each other...

That's sad to know it doesnt happen anywhere in the world...

@Mag: Yes, the majority aint ready, but it seems this is generalized random crazyness. Its an ugly thing to be seen on tv.

[Obsidian]

Agreed, the majority of the first world would be unable to cope with disaster of this scope.
@Fable - interesting point on the value america puts on individual success. It seems to me that a lot of the looting, the non - essentials being looted that is, is being done to get things people couldn't ordinarily afford.
Car jackings, jewelry etc. Though, shiny baubles would be handy just for barter purposes.
It's ironic that by looking out only for yourself, your are damned. A lesson to take from here is the value in social groups. I'll wager the gangs come out of this with the most health and possessions.

[fable]

The BBC has a man in New Orleans. He's just reporting on seeing thousands of people in the Convention Center, with next to no water or food and no shelter for four days; every now and again a helicopter hover nearby and drops supplies, which the burliest men in the Convention Center rush for, fight over, and confiscate for their own use. Now many of the children inside have developed diarrhea, so we may be seeing the beginning of a epidemic period.

There are also reports that the police are simply ignoring people, rushing by in cars with shotguns hanging out the windows and speaking to nobody.

The New Orleans mayor gave a radio phone-in interview in which he said all the federal and state officials who are giving press conferences should declare a moratorium on them, get off their asses and get the supplies down to the largest disaster the US has ever experienced on its mainland.

Bush, who has been defending the response, now has suddenly switched sides and is saying it's not being handled well. The latest fingerpointing is at Homeland Security, which was supposed to be in charge of operations like this. As the mayor put it, if they can't employ hundreds of thousands of people after 4 years to handle this crisis that was known to be coming--in a city that still hasn't received even a small fraction of the resources needed, 5 days after the hurricane hit--what business do they have being entrusted with looking after potential external threats to the US?

[moltovir]

[quote="Obsidian]The national guard WILL start shooting people.[/quote"]

It keeps surprising me that the National Guard in the US is so much different from their European equivalents. In most Western European countries, the National Guard are voluntary rescue workers who support people and deliver supplies when catastrophs such as heavy storms occur. In the US they are, basically, civilians with heavy military weapons.

[fable]

Incidentally, New Orleans and the state of Louisiana has requested the federal funds necessary for flood control since this administration began. It's budget requests have been repeatedly slashed to ribbons each time. This ties into what I've said before, here: that the invisible disaster is the way Bush has followed in Reagan's footsteps by cutting the core of the state funds allocated by the federal government.

To get a sense of the disconnect going on between the federal government and the situation on the ground, read this. It's horrifically impressive.

[Obsidian]

My experience with the American National Guard has been less than positive, and in many ways I'm concerned with the degree of their training, and in some others their fire discipline. Without trying to patronize, they mean well, and any extra hand is a helping hand at this stage.

[Chanak]

@Obsidian: That viewpoint is not without merit. However, here are some things concerning the US National Guard (NG) to bear in mind:

1. The NG is at the bottom of the funding pole. The US military Reserves pull more funds, are always activated to active status first, and therefore will have opportunities for more training, more often. The NG is always last in consideration and often is issued outdated equipment - hand-me-downs from military surplus.

2. There are a fair number of former Active duty military in the NG. However, normally the Reserves attracts most leaving active duty, since it offers more in the way of military advancement and life, albeit allowing you to lead a civilian one at the same time.

3. It's important to distinguish between the Reserves and the National Guard. The Reserves are completely federal and under the direct authority of the Defense Department, whereas the NG is technically directly under a state's Governor. They derive part of their funds for equipment and training from the state they belong to.

4. The NG was never meant to be a place for the professional soldier. Active duty service is the place for the professional, and the Reserves the place for those wishing more ability to pursue civilian pursuits. The NG is rather meant to be a more heavily armed state police mechanism.

The efforts to include the NG in training exercises across the border is always well-intentioned, but often ill-conceived.

[Obsidian]

My apologies Chan, editing now.

[Chimaera182]

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]While I do agree with everything said thus far (spec. Fable and Mag)... the fact is that New Orleans is... well... below sea level.[/QUOTE]
I live in south Florida, and we got a nice taste of Katrina when she was a category 1, i.e. before she became the massive monster which struck LA down, so we were lucky. Anyway, I was talking to a friend in Cali the next day, and he was watching the hurricane as it bore towards Lousiana, and when he told me that New Orleans was below sea level, I said, "Well, that's just stupid." Anything like that is just inviting the very disaster they've now got, and I think it was dumb to even build a city like that. I mean, it's bad enough that Florida is AT sea level, but c'mon. They're like 10-15 feet below sea level, and now they literally are. I think that was just poor construction planning, and now it's given rise to this entire disaster.

[QUOTE=Obsidian]Ask yourselves, if you lost everything but the clothes on your back, could you survive? Do you have the skills? I'd wager not, most people don't know how to make their own shelter, fire, find their own food, even defend themselves. Anyone remember reading those disaster preparedness manuals that recommend keeping food, water, and spare clothes ready to go at all times? I keep my military ruck sack packed at all times, which has a uniform, spare boots, two days rations ready to go.

What's most tragic in my opinion in New Orleans, is the conduct of people. Looting, violence, rape, shootings, somehow the chemical plant just exploded, it's tragic. People are going to die. The national guard WILL start shooting people. Martial law is in effect. And it's not necessary if people just acted like decent human beings.
There's nobody out there helping the helpless. The sick and the elderly have just been abandoned, to slowly die in their wheel chairs, without the meds they need.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I could, and I'll admit that outright. I don't believe I'd resort to the kinds of things going on in New Orleans, but you can never know for certain until you go through it.

This may sound callous--cynicism sometimes does--but when I first heard the news reports of the looting in New Orleans, I thought, "And you're surprised by this why?"

[QUOTE=fable]Agreed, Obsidian. I would only add that Americans have long been educated to grab whatever they can in any situation: the indiivdual comes first, and social responsibility doesn't matter at all. No politician will comment on this, since that would be conssidered anti-American, but a disaster likes New Orleans shows how a group of determined individuals will act when the restraining influence of law is missing.[/QUOTE]
This is why my first thought on the looting was, "And you're surprised by this why?" We Americans are educated to "grab" whatever we can, and the individual does come before society. After 9/11, the majority of people who wanted to help donated blood... why? It was something anyone could easily do and shouldn't take long [but because so many people knew it wouldn't take too much of their time, a lot of people went, and it took a whole lot of time]. But where was the blood going to go? There wasn't exactly going to be a large call for it, and a whole lot of the blood got thrown out because there just wasn't a need for it. But because these people felt it was their civic duty to do something, they chose to donate blood, because it was literally the least they could do.

And you can't tell me that people in desperate times won't commit desperate acts. We're all capable of it, which is why I said I don't think I could do that sort of thing but I can't say for sure. This is kind of sad, but this has become my justification for the law enforcement we have, despite it's many, many flaws: at least they keep order. Once order falls, man will turn into beast, and to hell with whoever gets in their way. With order in New Orleans all but obliterated, it was inevitable the situation would deteriorate to what it has, and I for one was not surprised. As for the situation with the dispersment of relief aid, that wasn't something I really thought much about, but it's tragic that it's been so badly mishandled.

[QUOTE=Magrus]Also, the violence and looting, in the audio clip with Ray Nugin (Mayor of New Orleans), he mentions the majority of those committing violent crimes are drug addicts, and the "looting" all over is mostly people looking for food, blankts, supplies, etc. That is something else to keep in mind. Even rational people break down in a situation such as this, if help doesn't come soon for those people, it may end up there's a violent reprisal across the board above and beyond those addicts and gangs. The whole area may tear through whatever the national guard has put up and seek to "get even" for a lack of support.[/QUOTE]
The looting is always being committed by undesirables. God forbid an upper-class white man who's never done a drug in his life loots a store; that's just unheard of! That kind of attitude is just stupid. Like Magrus said, even rational people will break down in times of extreme stress (again, this is why I say I'm not sure if I'd resort to this very behavior in a similar crisis, and I'll keep saying it, too; after all, I'm the most rational person I know ). Anyone is capable of becoming a monster given the right situation. A lot of good, honest Germans became butchers under Hitler, as did a lot of good, honest Russians under Stalin. But those Germans and Russians were given positions of power, and they would do anything to keep that power and gain more, including kill each other. But unlike being given power, the people in New Orleans had power taken away from them: the power of security, of shelter, of just living. So now, they're turning into monsters, and it's reckless and irresponsible to blame the rioting and looting on just the undesirables.

I'm also not surprised by the racism being exhibited now. It's folly to believe such a pervasive problem isn't present in the U.S.; it's been in this country for centuries, and it's liable to stay with us for a good while longer. It doesn't make it any better, though (it's usually prevalent in the south, anyway; but usually doesn't mean always). 9/11 was a wake-up call that slapped American complacency and sense of security in the face; Katrina took it a step further and reminded us what any one of us is capable of. Katrina also is letting people vent their true feelings, and racial tensions are bound to flare up. It's just a sign that humans in general still have a long way to go when it comes to becoming truly "civilized."

[Magrus]

I discussed all of this with some friends last night, the stuff I mentioned with my friends wasn't all that important. An ex of mine however got ahold of me to see if I was ok. Apparently, there are gas outages in her town, in Pennsylvania and people are very, very unhappy there right now. She mentioned the mood being something close to a riot in various parts around town.

A thought I had, in addition to the drug addicts, how are all of those people that smoke doing down there? I asked my roommates, both who smoke, what they would do if they were stuck in that situation and unable to have a cigarette because all of the cigarettes in the city were underwater. They said they'd probably have to struggle from tearing through the military to get some, and had no doubt the stress involved would make them do some crazy things. I just felt that should be noted too, even "normal" people are addicted to those things and would be freaking out by this point in those conditions.