Overdone, with some musings on tone thrown in...
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Arch_Angel
- Posts: 197
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:00 pm
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I can understand both sides of the argument here, however I don't really think that the developers had much choice in putting in more of the high level monsters. I can't imagine BG2 having the same effect on me it if it only had hobgoblins and kabolds to kill. Everyone would complain that there was nothing new in the game and it's all just old hat. It's much the same with the weapons, I was over the moon in BG1 when I had my whole party equiped with at least +1 weapons. They are all over the place in BG2 but I think that it had to be done. Isn't that why you buy the sequal/addon for a game? New and harder challenges? Bigger and better ways of going about things?
Another thing a lot of people have to remember is that programing is not easy and there are limits. I'm sure that if they were able to Black Isle would have loved to put in just about every detail and rule in the game that is in the original D&D that the whole thing is based on, but we are not at that level yet. The game is huge, and I personally think that the BG series are the best games I've ever played. Instead of complaining and looking for every flaw in the game have a look at exactly what HAS been accomplised. A very well rounded in depth game, like I said before probably the best I've ever played
Another thing a lot of people have to remember is that programing is not easy and there are limits. I'm sure that if they were able to Black Isle would have loved to put in just about every detail and rule in the game that is in the original D&D that the whole thing is based on, but we are not at that level yet. The game is huge, and I personally think that the BG series are the best games I've ever played. Instead of complaining and looking for every flaw in the game have a look at exactly what HAS been accomplised. A very well rounded in depth game, like I said before probably the best I've ever played
I killed a rabid rabbit! I'm experienced now!
Here is what the Shadow Dragon is.....Originally posted by Xyx:
<STRONG>I'm not entirely convinced that the Shadow Dragon is a "real" Dragon, it not being either the metallic or the chromatic type.
</STRONG>
Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark:
<STRONG>here it goes.
(C-caotic,N-neutral,L-lawful,G-good,E-evil)
Dragon,Chromatic
Black-CE
Blue-LE
Green-LE
Red-CE
White-CE
Dragon,Gem
Amethyst-N
Crystal-CN
Emerald-LN
Sapphire-LN
Topaz-CN
Dragon,Metallic
Brass-CG
Bronze-LG
Copper-CG
Gold-LG
Silver-LG
Brown Dragon-N
Cloud Dragon-N
Deep Dragon-CE
Mercury Dragon-CG
Mist Dragon-N
Shadow Dragon-CE
Steel Dragon-LN
Yellow Dragon-CE
Dragon Turtle-N
Brine Dragon-CN
Ghost Dragon-N
Amber Dragon-N
Moonstone Dragon-N
Prismatic Dragon-CN
there are others types of dragons but I don´t posses the "Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One" where are covered but here are the name for them.
Dread
Electrum Dragon
Flame Dragon
Forest Dragon
Frost Dragon
Gray Dragon
Jacinth Dragon-N?
Jade Dragon-N?
Land Dragon
Pearl Dragon-N?
Rain Dragon
and to close the ever popular:
Dragolich-Evil(any)
</STRONG>
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.
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Dimensional
- Posts: 104
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Ah yes the gold box games - ok at some stages the enemies were just a tad overpowered - but hey according to the story Bane had jut launched an all out attack with his most powerful minnions on the moonsea area so it made some sort of sense. they wern't just hanging out in a major city waiting for someone to find them - they were attacking in their masses - i loved it when i finally got to Banes plane - city of undead and got attacked by the crowd - my lvl 50 cleric - turn unded - no effect damn that was painfulThe "old days" also include games like Pool of Radiance (one Dragon (sort of) as boss) and Eye of the Beholder (guess what the boss was here ).
They also include the eventual sequel to Pool of Radiance: Pools of Darkness. That game had level 14 Vampire Thiefs on every corner of the streets, and you'd fight several flights of Dragons at some stages.
Shadow dragons were originaly introduced in dragon Magazine (I think it's been awhile) seem to remember them being much worse sort of shadows themselves sort of incorpral and undetectable when in shadow besides any dragon with level drain for a breath wepon was just evil.)
all in all i tend to agree that their were to many high end enemies in BG2 also to may magical weapons - all pretty cool but in P&P getting a new magic weapon was a major bonus youjust didn't get them at every second fight (or atleast we didn't)
They say to truly understand reality one must learn to think in Seven Dimensions
Understand there is no chaos - Only a pattern to large for your mind to grasp
Understand there is no chaos - Only a pattern to large for your mind to grasp
[Sorry about my ebglish]
All these problems are agravated in the TOB expansion.
BG1 was great
BG2 few mistakes:
How can the Windspear red Dragon do not try to kill your group in the time you stand in his lair, he is caotic evil, CAOTIC. A real red dragon will attack instantily, no dialogs, no chances.
Why the Drows have golens protecting their treasure?
What is a lich doing inside of a city, where any comoner can found him?
But in TOB they make the most terrible mistakes:
Tavern sellers with weapons and armors +3 +4???
Every mage you see can cast time stop.
Everybody can Teleport???
Weapon +6???
No Storyline variety, no mather your class or your with you are evil, you will help Melisan and that Planetar.
Elmnister appear talk nothing real important and go away.....
No class balance.
Only one new caracter to be added to your group, and a chaotic evil one.
Red Dragon with psicological disturbs.
The worst final combat I ever see.
All these problems are agravated in the TOB expansion.
BG1 was great
BG2 few mistakes:
How can the Windspear red Dragon do not try to kill your group in the time you stand in his lair, he is caotic evil, CAOTIC. A real red dragon will attack instantily, no dialogs, no chances.
Why the Drows have golens protecting their treasure?
What is a lich doing inside of a city, where any comoner can found him?
But in TOB they make the most terrible mistakes:
Tavern sellers with weapons and armors +3 +4???
Every mage you see can cast time stop.
Everybody can Teleport???
Weapon +6???
No Storyline variety, no mather your class or your with you are evil, you will help Melisan and that Planetar.
Elmnister appear talk nothing real important and go away.....
No class balance.
Only one new caracter to be added to your group, and a chaotic evil one.
Red Dragon with psicological disturbs.
The worst final combat I ever see.
[Sorry about my English]
Ps: I'm "Ivan Cavallazzi".
Lurker(0.50). : )
Ps: I'm "Ivan Cavallazzi".
Lurker(0.50). : )
@ Xyx
Don't get me wrong mate, I agree with everyones opinion here but I am trying to point out the rational point of view. Interplay as a rule are very tough on developers. They want the best possible game out as quick as possible. They are like that with everyone (saying that though Interplay are up for sale!). However when they set a date they want it set, they (the developers) cannot include everything, like Arch_Angel says, there are still limits to the tech. People like you, Xyx, are what make the game better, they include what the developers couldn't do due to time constrictions.
Remember, this is a game, a very good one, and some people are focusing on stupid little things. Would you want to fight Kobolds reguarly at 40th level? The whole point of a sequel is to extend a game and try to make it better. Black Isle did this through making more powerful weapons.
OK people continue posting this discussion is going very well, lets continue to argue!
Don't get me wrong mate, I agree with everyones opinion here but I am trying to point out the rational point of view. Interplay as a rule are very tough on developers. They want the best possible game out as quick as possible. They are like that with everyone (saying that though Interplay are up for sale!). However when they set a date they want it set, they (the developers) cannot include everything, like Arch_Angel says, there are still limits to the tech. People like you, Xyx, are what make the game better, they include what the developers couldn't do due to time constrictions.
Remember, this is a game, a very good one, and some people are focusing on stupid little things. Would you want to fight Kobolds reguarly at 40th level? The whole point of a sequel is to extend a game and try to make it better. Black Isle did this through making more powerful weapons.
OK people continue posting this discussion is going very well, lets continue to argue!
Perverteer Paladin
Nippy I would suggest that it is far from difficult to think of more intelligent reactions for a lich (liches, let us not forget, have an intelligence score of something like twenty). On meeting you (and assuming that it can instinctively guage your power/ancestry; I don't think that they should be able to, but for the sake of the arguement we'll assume that they can) it would make far more sense for the lich to use its great mastery of magic to disguise itself (perhaps even beyond the divining capacity of a true-sight spell) and/or play you off against one of the many powerful enemies which it surely has made. I have said that the Kangaxx plot line works quite well and it does, but it could be much better! What about this for an alternative:
Now in the game Kangaxx must be killed by another in order to release his demilich state; lets flip that around a bit and say that another must be killed by another (someone else must die and Kangaxx is not able/permitted to do it). Now lets just say that it was Kangaxx's much vaunted ring which trapped his "magical essence." This is a similar idea to his dismemberment; Kangaxx could not be destroyed and so he must be kept powerless. Now lets make these enemies of his who took his power from him his own family (something of a Lavok/Valyger thing is developing here, but from the opposite perspective). This ring is still kept by Kangaxx's family and the magic bound within it makes any blood relatives of Kangaxx who are wearing it immune to the effects of his magic. Kangaxx approachs the PC's party (perhaps in the guise of a small child) and spins them some credible sob-story (that he's an orphan who's been robbed of the ring that his mother gave him or something) and points them in the direction of his family. The reward offered is surprisingly substantial (this is both a clue that all is not what it seems and a lure for evil parties). When the PC's encounter the family they protest their innocence, but are exactly as Kangaxx described them. This plot now follows two paths:
Evil path - The group ignore the families protestations and kill them (at least one of them should be a powerful spellcaster). They take the ring to Kangaxx and they could simply be made to fight him directly, but I think that it would be more interesting if Kangaxx took something that they would be loath to do without (perhaps the weapon that each of them had equiped at the time) and fled, goading them to come and find him. Where he would go I am not certain of, but the Windspear Hills above ground area always seemed a little empty...(who knows, if Firkraag is still alive at this point then perhaps they might hatch some plot together). Kangaxx's stats for this fight should remain as they are now, but he should not be alone this time... Once he is dead his ring may be recovered from his body; much of its power died with him, but I'm sure that, for example, it could offer an AC bonus of +2 and that it could cast improved haste three times per day...
Good path - If the group chooses to believe the families story then they should be charged with the task of somehow destroying the ring (the Tolkien influence here has just occured to me, but never mind, I've written to much now to turn back). Now there are possible places where this could be done (such as the lava pool in the Umar Hills ruins), but I would suggest that a new feature should be created for this, and again, the Windspear Hills seem the perfect place for it. Some prerequisite requirements should be met before they can attept this quest (perhaps they need Cromwell's help, for example, and the dwarf will probably have a job of his own for them to do first). All this time Kangaxx should be striving to stop them (weakened he may be, but he is certainly not without resources). When they reach the Windspear Hills they should be equiped with a key to open a door which they could not open before; something should be waiting inside (this could be made so much more than a random monster encounter; perhaps it is Kangaxx's brother, who originally defeated him and forged the ring; he agreed to guard for all time the only thing which is capable of destroying his creation. He is now a lich of great power and he has been driven mad by his long confinement...). After this guardian has been defeated the ring can be destroyed, though certainly only at some permanent cost to the PC. As for reward well, Cromwell manages to recover the jewels which were embedded in the ring. Out of them he ought to be able to make another ring; the ring which is known in BG II: SoA as the Ring of Gaxx...
(By the way, I haven't seen the D&D movie; is it worth my time?)
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[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Sellsword ]
Now in the game Kangaxx must be killed by another in order to release his demilich state; lets flip that around a bit and say that another must be killed by another (someone else must die and Kangaxx is not able/permitted to do it). Now lets just say that it was Kangaxx's much vaunted ring which trapped his "magical essence." This is a similar idea to his dismemberment; Kangaxx could not be destroyed and so he must be kept powerless. Now lets make these enemies of his who took his power from him his own family (something of a Lavok/Valyger thing is developing here, but from the opposite perspective). This ring is still kept by Kangaxx's family and the magic bound within it makes any blood relatives of Kangaxx who are wearing it immune to the effects of his magic. Kangaxx approachs the PC's party (perhaps in the guise of a small child) and spins them some credible sob-story (that he's an orphan who's been robbed of the ring that his mother gave him or something) and points them in the direction of his family. The reward offered is surprisingly substantial (this is both a clue that all is not what it seems and a lure for evil parties). When the PC's encounter the family they protest their innocence, but are exactly as Kangaxx described them. This plot now follows two paths:
Evil path - The group ignore the families protestations and kill them (at least one of them should be a powerful spellcaster). They take the ring to Kangaxx and they could simply be made to fight him directly, but I think that it would be more interesting if Kangaxx took something that they would be loath to do without (perhaps the weapon that each of them had equiped at the time) and fled, goading them to come and find him. Where he would go I am not certain of, but the Windspear Hills above ground area always seemed a little empty...(who knows, if Firkraag is still alive at this point then perhaps they might hatch some plot together). Kangaxx's stats for this fight should remain as they are now, but he should not be alone this time... Once he is dead his ring may be recovered from his body; much of its power died with him, but I'm sure that, for example, it could offer an AC bonus of +2 and that it could cast improved haste three times per day...
Good path - If the group chooses to believe the families story then they should be charged with the task of somehow destroying the ring (the Tolkien influence here has just occured to me, but never mind, I've written to much now to turn back). Now there are possible places where this could be done (such as the lava pool in the Umar Hills ruins), but I would suggest that a new feature should be created for this, and again, the Windspear Hills seem the perfect place for it. Some prerequisite requirements should be met before they can attept this quest (perhaps they need Cromwell's help, for example, and the dwarf will probably have a job of his own for them to do first). All this time Kangaxx should be striving to stop them (weakened he may be, but he is certainly not without resources). When they reach the Windspear Hills they should be equiped with a key to open a door which they could not open before; something should be waiting inside (this could be made so much more than a random monster encounter; perhaps it is Kangaxx's brother, who originally defeated him and forged the ring; he agreed to guard for all time the only thing which is capable of destroying his creation. He is now a lich of great power and he has been driven mad by his long confinement...). After this guardian has been defeated the ring can be destroyed, though certainly only at some permanent cost to the PC. As for reward well, Cromwell manages to recover the jewels which were embedded in the ring. Out of them he ought to be able to make another ring; the ring which is known in BG II: SoA as the Ring of Gaxx...
(By the way, I haven't seen the D&D movie; is it worth my time?)
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[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Sellsword ]
"Security isn't a dirty word Blackadder; crevice is a dirty word, but security isn't."
I have t=o admit Sword I like that. Just a question, why should they (PC) lose a bit of themselves, instead of weapons how about he kidnaps a love interest or takes something else, maybe there si only one +5 weapon they have and they need to find another one. Maybe we could link this to Fikraag, his fire breath would also be able to destroy but you would need to do a quest for him. Just an idea.
Perverteer Paladin
I think that the PC should sacrifice a bit of themselves in order to answer a question;
Why couldn't Kangaxx be destroyed permanently before?
Answer - Because it took a will stronger than an ordinary mortal might possess. It requires a touch of divine essence to be sacrificed. Within the game this would best represented by some kind of stat loss.
The fire-breath idea is a good one, but what if the group has already killed Firkraag and the love interest might work, but what if they don't have one? It could certainly be a whole variety of things; my idea was just one possibility. The important elements are that they should be keen to get whatever it is back and that, if possible, being robbed of it should really make the player hate Kangaxx.
My point is that games like BG II could be so much better if developers worked their imaginations a little harder or better yet, involved real writers in the creative process!
Now I know that games developers are supposed to display a modicum of writing ability, but lets be realistic, they're employed for their coding. As they wrote it the Kangaxx subplot is notable only for the comparatively great (entirely combat based) challenge that it offers.
Would what I have written above have been so hard to implement? I've tried to keep it well within the possibilities presented by the infinity engine; it would require little more than a new estate in the government district (for the family) and a slight re-drawing of say, the top-left hand corner of the Windspear Hills area. So simple and if you gave me longer then I could probably think of something much better, but anythings got to be better than plot absence!
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[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Sellsword ]
Why couldn't Kangaxx be destroyed permanently before?
Answer - Because it took a will stronger than an ordinary mortal might possess. It requires a touch of divine essence to be sacrificed. Within the game this would best represented by some kind of stat loss.
The fire-breath idea is a good one, but what if the group has already killed Firkraag and the love interest might work, but what if they don't have one? It could certainly be a whole variety of things; my idea was just one possibility. The important elements are that they should be keen to get whatever it is back and that, if possible, being robbed of it should really make the player hate Kangaxx.
My point is that games like BG II could be so much better if developers worked their imaginations a little harder or better yet, involved real writers in the creative process!
Now I know that games developers are supposed to display a modicum of writing ability, but lets be realistic, they're employed for their coding. As they wrote it the Kangaxx subplot is notable only for the comparatively great (entirely combat based) challenge that it offers.
Would what I have written above have been so hard to implement? I've tried to keep it well within the possibilities presented by the infinity engine; it would require little more than a new estate in the government district (for the family) and a slight re-drawing of say, the top-left hand corner of the Windspear Hills area. So simple and if you gave me longer then I could probably think of something much better, but anythings got to be better than plot absence!
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[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Sellsword ]
"Security isn't a dirty word Blackadder; crevice is a dirty word, but security isn't."
No.Originally posted by THE JAKER:
<STRONG>Xyx, are you seriously saying that every patron of the Crooked Cane, the bartender, and the guards at the City Gates know about the Lich, and they are just going about their business, having a drink and chatting?</STRONG>
Some games (dare I mention Fallout) seem to do quite well.Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>There are just too many nuances to conversation that can lead to all sorts of events--and building a dialog tree out of even one such conversation might well consume enough code for a game by itself.</STRONG>
*Ahem* There are more ways to challenge a party than just combat, you know?Originally posted by Arch_Angel:
<STRONG>I don't really think that the developers had much choice in putting in more of the high level monsters. I can't imagine BG2 having the same effect on me it if it only had hobgoblins and kabolds to kill.</STRONG>
In fact, as much as I enjoy combat, I think a good PnP session consists of one part combat, one part conversation and one part "adventuring" (puzzles, traps, obstacles, etc.). Each of those can be made challenging regardless of the party's level.
"Real" Dragons are also said to enjoy the cat & mouse game.Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
<STRONG>A real red dragon will attack instantily, no dialogs, no chances.</STRONG>
Of course, the problem with Firkraag is that he doesn't realise who the mouse is...Everybody but the party...Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
<STRONG>Everybody can Teleport???</STRONG>
I hate it when he does that! There should have been a way for Evil (or perhaps even Neutral) parties to kill him...Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
<STRONG>Elmnister appear talk nothing real important and go away.....</STRONG>
Regularly: Definitely not! Occasionally: Certainly. It keeps things in perspective (and is excellent stress reliefOriginally posted by Nippy:
<STRONG>Would you want to fight Kobolds reguarly at 40th level?</STRONG>
). I understand about game balance and playability, but it doesn't make sense if all your enemies were adapted to your level.IMO, there's nothing wrong with a few really tough optional fights. The BG2 Dragons aren't really optional for reasons already mentioned. They aren't really tough either; you don't have to be a BG grand master to defeat them.
I totally agree. Nice idea, BTW.Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>anythings got to be better than plot absence!</STRONG>
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
The public also includes people that don't feel good about beating up a Lich that has clearly been severely handicapped. Me, for example.Originally posted by Nippy:
<STRONG>The public wanna kick the crap out of liches etc.</STRONG>
Defeating a smart enemy by using your brains is so much more rewarding than just Greater Whirlwinding them from several sides at once or using cheese X. At least, that's how I feel.Stuff like "I beat Kangaxx" doesn't mean much the way the game works now.
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
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incandescent one
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- Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 10:00 pm
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Sorry, but I enjoyed all the high-level destruction going on in the BG series and I don't think it's one bit out of place. I mean, let's get a show of hands, and see how many people still want to be hunting down trolls in some far forgotten hamlet between Kara-tur and Calimshan to win the praise of all 5 townspeople. I for one would not.
Anybody read Wheel of Time ? I want to use something from that series to reason out the appearance of all this stuff.
Ta'veren.
All Bhaalspawn are ta'veren. The strength of your pull depends on your essence. People like you, balthazar, abazigal, sendai, yaga-shura, (maybe not illasera, she was a pretty easy frag). You all recieved huge portions of Bhaal's power, and none of you were intended to be Joe the baker that has some anti-social tendencies. No, rather destruction, chaos and murder is in your blood. No matter whether you choose a life of peace or not, destruction will follow you, and consume you if you do not fight back. Your effect upon reality is such that, no matter where you go power follows. I mean you're power was barely manifesting in BG1. You only saw very few magically powered weapons. In ToB, you're powers are fully manifesting, you can turn into the avatar at will, by sheer force of will you crafted a piece of your father's plane. You are nothing short of a demi-god, expect the enemies of a demi-god. Not trolls or ogres or little stuff. Expect armies of trolls and ogres. Expect liches, expect mind-flayers and githyanki. Expect the highest level adventurers to seek you out, and vice versa.
my rant
Anybody read Wheel of Time ? I want to use something from that series to reason out the appearance of all this stuff.
Ta'veren.
All Bhaalspawn are ta'veren. The strength of your pull depends on your essence. People like you, balthazar, abazigal, sendai, yaga-shura, (maybe not illasera, she was a pretty easy frag). You all recieved huge portions of Bhaal's power, and none of you were intended to be Joe the baker that has some anti-social tendencies. No, rather destruction, chaos and murder is in your blood. No matter whether you choose a life of peace or not, destruction will follow you, and consume you if you do not fight back. Your effect upon reality is such that, no matter where you go power follows. I mean you're power was barely manifesting in BG1. You only saw very few magically powered weapons. In ToB, you're powers are fully manifesting, you can turn into the avatar at will, by sheer force of will you crafted a piece of your father's plane. You are nothing short of a demi-god, expect the enemies of a demi-god. Not trolls or ogres or little stuff. Expect armies of trolls and ogres. Expect liches, expect mind-flayers and githyanki. Expect the highest level adventurers to seek you out, and vice versa.
my rant
Death comes for you .... FEEL IT'S ICY BREATH !
Nippy; I'm not asking them to re-do it, they should have done it in the first place!
Transcendent two; I think that your missing the point slightly. The point is not that we would rather simply be fighting kobolds and ogres at 40th level, but rather that we would simply prefer to be fighting less generally. Apart from simple (and irritating) fetch-and-carry quests, very little in the game is solved or achieved by anything other than combat, something which actually rings less and less true as your PC gains levels (while an ogre is probably just going to be interested in a straight fight, dragons and liches should be far more subtle).
As I've said before, there are other challenges than combat and far better roleplaying possibilities. As the game stands its a case of:
1. In dungeon
2. Meet lich
3. Fight lich
4. Kill lich
5. Wow look! 22 thousand experience points and some scrolls!
Whats he doing in the dungeon?
Oh nothing; he's just kind of hanging around!
Whats his relationship with the other dungeon inhabitants (who are bound to include at least one beholder...)?
Huh...?
Does the lich have any schemes/plans/aims?
Erm...
Liches should be rare!
In BG II you meet an entire continents population of them!
Every lich is unique and extremely powerful!
They should all have an individual purpose and backstory; they should not be used as "wandering monsters."
Your point about trouble following your PC around is not a justification, its an excuse. "Hey lets make a game about a guy who just has trouble following him around!" "Yeah, then we can throw all kinds of exotic monsters at him, not bother with anything else and nobody will mind!"
(...Fume...)
Not only should the game present you with challenges which can't be solved through combat, there should be times when to fight looks to be the right thing to do, but isn't and the game should punish you for getting these choices wrong!
So put away that +12 Hackmaster and engage those grey cells...
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[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: Sellsword ]
Transcendent two; I think that your missing the point slightly. The point is not that we would rather simply be fighting kobolds and ogres at 40th level, but rather that we would simply prefer to be fighting less generally. Apart from simple (and irritating) fetch-and-carry quests, very little in the game is solved or achieved by anything other than combat, something which actually rings less and less true as your PC gains levels (while an ogre is probably just going to be interested in a straight fight, dragons and liches should be far more subtle).
As I've said before, there are other challenges than combat and far better roleplaying possibilities. As the game stands its a case of:
1. In dungeon
2. Meet lich
3. Fight lich
4. Kill lich
5. Wow look! 22 thousand experience points and some scrolls!
Whats he doing in the dungeon?
Oh nothing; he's just kind of hanging around!
Whats his relationship with the other dungeon inhabitants (who are bound to include at least one beholder...)?
Huh...?
Does the lich have any schemes/plans/aims?
Erm...
Liches should be rare!
In BG II you meet an entire continents population of them!
Every lich is unique and extremely powerful!
They should all have an individual purpose and backstory; they should not be used as "wandering monsters."
Your point about trouble following your PC around is not a justification, its an excuse. "Hey lets make a game about a guy who just has trouble following him around!" "Yeah, then we can throw all kinds of exotic monsters at him, not bother with anything else and nobody will mind!"
(...Fume...)
Not only should the game present you with challenges which can't be solved through combat, there should be times when to fight looks to be the right thing to do, but isn't and the game should punish you for getting these choices wrong!
So put away that +12 Hackmaster and engage those grey cells...
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[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: Sellsword ]
"Security isn't a dirty word Blackadder; crevice is a dirty word, but security isn't."
This is always gonna be a touchy subject. All the way trough BG2 you can point your fingers and go.. ehhh huh?!?. FX. Irenicus dungeon/home. We all know now that he is one powerfull mage. But as you walk through the dungeon, you really dont get that feeling at all. Sure he does some pretty magic at the beginning, but other then that. His two guardian golems are defeated like 1,2,3. Instead of fighting them, maybe you could disable them in some way and they should ofcourse be very powerfull.
The liches in the city are abit of a joke, especially the quest that leads to them.. or lack of it. On a side note, it is strange that there isnt a single one in the city of Baldurs Gate.
IMHO the shadow drage had absolutely NO reason for being in the game. All it did was sit on its butt, in the temple and stare at the wall. Atleast the red one had something going on the side and a few dialog lines to go with that!
The mindflayer city I thought was nicely implementet. There where many things that had to be done to get out and you had the feeling that you where facing a powerfull race. Unlike the Beholder dungeon where you just fight fight fight.
Another thing that really started to bother me later on, was the amount of magical weapons you started to get. I mean, come on... would that one guy be less a challenge with a normal sword instead of a +1. Only the biggest, badest and strongest NPC's/Monsters should have a magical weapon. Not you local friendly group of bandits and muggers. This was one things that where really nice in BG1, when you finally get a powerfull weapon, you where jumping up and down in your seat. I remember the joy of saving that Halbred +2 from the hands of the Irone Throne goons.
But with all of this said... the Baldurs Gate series had been and will most likely be for some time, the best series of computers game I have ever played, the longelivety of the games are 2. to none.
[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: KaaZe ]
The liches in the city are abit of a joke, especially the quest that leads to them.. or lack of it. On a side note, it is strange that there isnt a single one in the city of Baldurs Gate.
IMHO the shadow drage had absolutely NO reason for being in the game. All it did was sit on its butt, in the temple and stare at the wall. Atleast the red one had something going on the side and a few dialog lines to go with that!
The mindflayer city I thought was nicely implementet. There where many things that had to be done to get out and you had the feeling that you where facing a powerfull race. Unlike the Beholder dungeon where you just fight fight fight.
Another thing that really started to bother me later on, was the amount of magical weapons you started to get. I mean, come on... would that one guy be less a challenge with a normal sword instead of a +1. Only the biggest, badest and strongest NPC's/Monsters should have a magical weapon. Not you local friendly group of bandits and muggers. This was one things that where really nice in BG1, when you finally get a powerfull weapon, you where jumping up and down in your seat. I remember the joy of saving that Halbred +2 from the hands of the Irone Throne goons.
But with all of this said... the Baldurs Gate series had been and will most likely be for some time, the best series of computers game I have ever played, the longelivety of the games are 2. to none.
[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: KaaZe ]
/Kaaze
True, that.Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>"Hey lets make a game about a guy who just has trouble following him around!" "Yeah, then we can throw all kinds of exotic monsters at him, not bother with anything else and nobody will mind!"</STRONG>
As a PnP DM, I love messing with players that way.Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>Not only should the game present you with challenges which can't be solved through combat, there should be times when to fight looks to be the right thing to do, but isn't and the game should punish you for getting these choices wrong!</STRONG>
Although it does get kind of messy when the occasional player doesn't catch on... But that's worth it. In fact, it may even get better that way. <quest>Originally posted by KaaZe:
<STRONG>The liches in the city are abit of a joke, especially the quest that leads to them.. or lack of it.</STRONG>
"Hey, isn't that a secret door in the tavern wall?"
</quest>
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
I agree there, I´m not gonna waste my time clearing out a kobold infestation for a few measly gold pieces. Having said that, did anyone cath the Monty Python spoof in TOB? With the killer rabbit and the kobold bhaalspawn? Nearly wiped out my powergaming party.Originally posted by transcendent two:
<STRONG>Sorry, but I enjoyed all the high-level destruction going on in the BG series and I don't think it's one bit out of place. I mean, let's get a show of hands, and see how many people still want to be hunting down trolls in some far forgotten hamlet between Kara-tur and Calimshan to win the praise of all 5 townspeople. I for one would not.</STRONG>
The only thing that annoyed me (slightly) about TOB was that in the tavern in Saradush you could buy incredible weapons from the barkeep. A 3+ version of every weapon type was available. A tad unrealistic, (ironic considering this is fantasy) if you ask me. And there was a commoner sitting on a barstool while the city was being pelted with Greek fire from catapults, complaining about his ugly wife.
Also there was a prostitute plying her trade a few feet from, where moments earlier, my party got creamed by a missle from a catapult. I´m all for enjoying one´s work but...
I do agree that a little (no, make that a lot) more attention to cause and effect in such situations wouldn't go amiss! Then again there are problems associatted with too much of such mutability; I hate it when perfectly peaceable people become hostile just because your involved in a fight in the same room as them...Originally posted by Dagger:
<STRONG>Also there was a prostitute plying her trade a few feet from, where moments earlier, my party got creamed by a missle from a catapult. I´m all for enjoying one´s work but...</STRONG>
Man, so many points made and argued! This thread ought to be made compulsary reading for all forum member!
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"Security isn't a dirty word Blackadder; crevice is a dirty word, but security isn't."
I honestly think part of the problem is that AD&D ain't meant for high level (above level 15 or so) combat. It seems to be designed for lower level combat, and at this BGII excells, I think. But once you get level 1-9 spells, and your fighter has 200 hps, and your Monk is 70% Magic Resistant -- the game gets strained. It just can't HANDLE a high level party very well.
Level 9 spells, for instance, were meant to be cast once in a very great while under moments of extreme need. Not every day, certainly not a couple of them every day. This explains imprisonment; yes it breaks the game but honestly, it was meant to. That scary level 18 mage that your level 13-14 party has to battle SHOULD be scary and take out one party member immediately if he/she desires.
But when the player can do this multiple times, it gets boring, and challanges are hard to come by. Again, in AD&D a dragon is an end-battle. What's harder than a dragon? An older dragon. There is nothing meaner besides demi-gods and gods and all that stuff (demigorgon, etc). So after your level 25 party can whip a dragon, what is Bioware to do? Structurally, it is difficult.
Fighters can easily dish out 200+ damage a ROUND. Easy. How to stop this? Stoneskin/protections (AC can't cut it). Which are easily dispelled by swords/spellcasters. What CAN bioware do? Improved AI yes, less combat YES, but actualy combat...it's very very difficult to stop a few hack-n-slash level 25 fighters supported by a level 25 mage and cleric.
It's tough for the game mechanics; it's tough for a fantasy world "logic," it's just tough all around.
What Bioware did was just ramp up all the monsters about 10 levels; scatter about more magic; and sit back. AD&D is played out at levels 30-40, it is nothing more than a strategy game at this point.
Perhaps blaming Bioware is not quite the point; after all AD&D was NOT set up to handle TOB power levels. The problem is somewhere in the middle. Bioware could have done better yes, but they are somewhat handicapped.
Level 9 spells, for instance, were meant to be cast once in a very great while under moments of extreme need. Not every day, certainly not a couple of them every day. This explains imprisonment; yes it breaks the game but honestly, it was meant to. That scary level 18 mage that your level 13-14 party has to battle SHOULD be scary and take out one party member immediately if he/she desires.
But when the player can do this multiple times, it gets boring, and challanges are hard to come by. Again, in AD&D a dragon is an end-battle. What's harder than a dragon? An older dragon. There is nothing meaner besides demi-gods and gods and all that stuff (demigorgon, etc). So after your level 25 party can whip a dragon, what is Bioware to do? Structurally, it is difficult.
Fighters can easily dish out 200+ damage a ROUND. Easy. How to stop this? Stoneskin/protections (AC can't cut it). Which are easily dispelled by swords/spellcasters. What CAN bioware do? Improved AI yes, less combat YES, but actualy combat...it's very very difficult to stop a few hack-n-slash level 25 fighters supported by a level 25 mage and cleric.
It's tough for the game mechanics; it's tough for a fantasy world "logic," it's just tough all around.
What Bioware did was just ramp up all the monsters about 10 levels; scatter about more magic; and sit back. AD&D is played out at levels 30-40, it is nothing more than a strategy game at this point.
Perhaps blaming Bioware is not quite the point; after all AD&D was NOT set up to handle TOB power levels. The problem is somewhere in the middle. Bioware could have done better yes, but they are somewhat handicapped.