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Yaster wrote:Well, I think that you answered yourself. Oblivion is the game of the year and is priced in majority game reviews. But it doesnt mean it is good RPG. It has many flaws. Yet competition recently is so crapy that Oblivion is the game of the year.

I doubt it's because of the crappy competition comrade. Bethsoft managed to pull off a huge marketing campaign. Their PR department fed a lot of hot air to a huge baloon and when Oblivion was released, that baloon just burst asunder and blew almost any reviewer of his feet. All major gaming sites praised it, ignored the flaws and declared it the game of the year even before the rest of the RPG squadron landed. And when they arrived, all major gaming sites critized them for things that were not only present, but even worse in Oblivion.

Sure, PR alone didn't make Oblivion be such a success. Bethesda changed their target group. With Oblivion they targeted the squalling mass of gamers that favor eye candy over game play, face gen and speed tree over story, mini-games over choices, Patrick "Picard" Stuart over reading and action over roleplaying. Yes, they lost a loyal fanbase (again). I'm sure, however, that it looked and looks like a good bargain to them.

That's why Oblivion is so successful. But we can already see the end of the story. Oblivion will be forgotten in a couple of years. Actually, it will be forgotten when Beth's next 3D-top-notch-looking-LoTR-shooter comes out. While gamers like me will still be playing Daggerfall and while the Morrowind modding community will still be alive. But hey, that's how millions are made today.

To contribute something to the thread's topic:

Lady Dragonfly wrote: I personally have nothing against fairy tales without sex or “adult language”.

And you have enough games to get exactly that. Now all I want is my share. Sex, explicit violence, "adult language" and morale ambiguity.

Monolith wrote: And you have enough games to get exactly that. Now all I want is my share. Sex, explicit violence, "adult language" and morale ambiguity.

Actually, my favorite series is Gothic. G1 was rated 'Teen', G2 -- 'Mature', and G3 -- 'Teen' again. It shows how ridiculous the ESRB ratings can be.

I have nothing against morale ambiguity either. But I always wonder why some people crave computerized sex and explicit violence. Is this something psychological? A subconscious desire?..

Lady Dragonfly wrote:Actually, my favorite series is Gothic. G1 was rated 'Teen', G2 -- 'Mature', and G3 -- 'Teen' again. It shows how ridiculous the ESRB ratings can be.

So true.

I have nothing against morale ambiguity either. But I always wonder why some people crave computerized sex and explicit violence. Is this something psychological? A subconscious desire?..

It sort of depends on the game. I don't expect sex in Civ4. I sort of expect it in a good RPG. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not talking of computerized sex as such. Sex is part of our world, part of reality. If you try to depict reality, leaving out a substantial part won't help you. Fallout and Fallout 2 wouldn't be as grim and believable without sex and without explicit violence. RPGs are about interaction mostly (at least in my book). Interaction requires options and if you want to have a believable setting you have to come up with believable options. That doesn't mean that your ingame character has to be able to copulate. But options that take sex into account come off as more real and thus does the setting. Same with violence.

Is it something psychological? I don't know. I like a setting to be believable - if it's a game, a book or a movie. It's possible that I have a subconscious desire for violence. It's certain, however, that I have a conscious desire for sex. But I really don't see how a RPG could displace my gf - no matter how much sex it includes. Perhaps it's because I'm not a 12 year or because I'm - what is the term? Mature?

Is it something psychological? I don't know. I like a setting to be believable - if it's a game, a book or a movie. It's possible that I have a subconscious desire for violence. It's certain, however, that I have a conscious desire for sex. But I really don't see how a RPG could displace my gf - no matter how much sex it includes. Perhaps it's because I'm not a 12 year or because I'm - what is the term? Mature?

:laugh: OK, you pass the shrink's couch test.
How mush sex and violence in RPG is sufficient to qualify as "mature" and "realistic"? For example, is it enough to feature just one bordello (like in G2 or Fable)? Can you think of any taboo? Sex with minors? A chance to torture your victims?

Lady Dragonfly wrote: How mush sex and violence in RPG is sufficient to qualify as "mature" and "realistic"? For example, is it enough to feature just one bordello (like in G2 or Fable)?

That depends on the setting and the implementation. Gothic, for instance, could have more of both if you asked me. Sometimes you don't feel like you're in a prison camp surrounded by killers and thieves. Sex was only mentioned at the beginning of the game during the intro, when the narrator explanes what happens to women that are thrown into the colony. I found that more explicit than the bordello scene in Gothic 2. Rape is a tad worse than prostitution in my book - even if it's not visually presented. Still, Gothic was rated T and Gothic 2 M.

Enough is when the implementation is plausible and when I don't think that something is missing - or that something is overdone only to seem more mature (see Fallout 2 - being able to become a pornstar in a wasteland was just laughable at best).

Yes, it's subjective. But if a developer tries to make a realistic setting and looks at reality for inspiration I'm sure he'll come close.

Can you think of any taboo?

Not really. In reality there aren't any taboos either. There are delicate issues such as rape, child molestation, torture and what not, but I don't think those should be taboo without exception. If the writer is able to implement it tactfully into a game and shows the horrors those issues stand for, then why not?

Aside from sex and violence, aren't there any other avenues to portray the mature side of a game? What about portraying the realities of war? That is something rarely tried in an RPG (and quite a number of games as well).

DesR85 wrote:Aside from sex and violence, aren't there any other avenues to portray the mature side of a game? What about portraying the realities of war? That is something rarely tried in an RPG (and quite a number of games as well).

I don't think the "mature side" means only sex, violence or other "realities". For me, it means a complex, engaging, unforgettable story and much more.
Realities of war? Besides combat, explosions, piles of dead, mutilated corpses and pools of blood? What do you mean?

@ Monolith

Gothic, for instance, could have more of both if you asked me.

It could've, I agree. The last installment was the most benign in that regard, but the most cynical at the same time.

If the writer is able to implement it tactfully into a game and shows the horrors those issues stand for, then why not?

And if he failed to implement it tactfully? I am not sure anybody should attempt to "tactfully" or otherwise implement a child rape in a game. Or any rape. I protest.

Lady Dragonfly wrote: Realities of war? Besides combat, explosions, piles of dead, mutilated corpses and pools of blood? What do you mean?

Portray the fear and frustration people have to endure when a conflict breaks out in the game world. How they wished for everything to be back to normal once again. Another way is to present the realities of war through the eyes of the main character. How he/she feels regarding the war, the things he's done and his reaction towards the death of his/her comrades.

I'll give a few quotes from Sgt. Matt Baker in Brothers in Arms: Road to Hill 30:

- "I never asked to be squad leader, but I had no choice. Now I've got thirteen soldiers under my command. Thirteen men depending on me to make the right decisions and not get them killed. Thirteen families relying on me to bring their husbands and sons home. Thirteen. Thirteen is not a lucky number."

- "My dad said something to me after the divorce. He said that every soldier have two families. Those you raise and those you raise hell with. I've spent eight days here, eight days commanding a squad I wasn't ready to lead, eight days watching my men, my family kill and be killed, eight days wishing it would stop."

- "How can a man stay focused on life when all he sees is death? I can't get it out of my head that sending Allan and Garnett with Leggett got them killed, If they've just been with me... <censored>! If they've just been with me, maybe they'd still be alive maybe I could have saved them!... Maybe..."

As you say,

Portray the fear and frustration people have to endure when a conflict breaks out in the game world. How they wished for everything to be back to normal once again. Another way is to present the realities of war through the eyes of the main character. How he/she feels regarding the war, the things he's done and his reaction towards the death of his/her comrades.

It is all about how NPC display their attitude and alignment, not the reality of war per se, IMO. I think all of that is generally present in RPG to some extent. Can you name a game that severely lacks this feature?

Lady Dragonfly wrote: It is all about how NPC display their attitude and alignment, not the reality of war per se, IMO. I think all of that is generally present in RPG to some extent. Can you name a game that severely lacks this feature?

NPCs did their job fine in most RPGs, I admit, but the main character part is what I find very lacking. Take for example Gothic 3. Sure, the NPCs and civilians there talk about the effects of the war and the occupation but what about the main character (a.k.a. the Nameless One)? He didn't even portray any feelings regarding the current status quo in Myrtana or feelings regarding the decisions he made.

What does it have to do with realities of war? Or maturity of the game?

@ Monolith
I'm not one for taking the moral higher ground, but I do must say that I find the very thought of those things you mentioned in a game sickening, and would have a very hard time playing anything like it. Now, I'm not saying this to offend you or to say there's something wrong with you, but surely, if a game appals a good many people who would otherwise be happy to play such a game, somehow that's a failure, don't you think?

You can get lewdness at any time, but does it necessarily have to be in combination with other things you like? Dostoevsky managed to write some of the best novels in history without any reference to sex whatsoever (lights go down, you know what it means ); Céline described all the world's madness, abjection and cruelty, in a most convincing manner, entirely without resorting to sickening descriptions of violence. Of course, the reverse is not true (Céline has sex and Dostoevsky has violence), but my point is that it is not required. A quick review of the history of literature shows us that there is no correlation between quality and explicitness; on the contrary, resorting to such devices is often considered amateurish.

@ Everyone
Personally I hate NWN and its sequel. Hate is a strong word, but it describes my feeling of disappointment and frustration at the fact that BG and BG2 never got a worthy follower. These four games are the ones that should be compared, whereas Morrowind and Oblivion are trying to achieve something quite different. These two are definitely not bad games, just maybe not for you. I think the real question is, What went wrong with D&D games? Obviously, sex and violence is not what's lacking, but some serious efforts put into script.

Spike45 wrote:I played this game when it first came out and it went into my library as one of the best RPGs ever made! I had my game stacked with all the mods/skins that could be found and was playing it at it's fullest. Now 3 years (?) later there still hasn't been a RPG on this level.

A bit curious actually, exactly what game is it we are discussing here?

Lady Dragonfly wrote:What does it have to do with realities of war? Or maturity of the game?

My point is, if you want to portray the effects of war, it should apply to everybody in that game world, be it the main character or the NPCs. It get irksome to see people around you complaining about the current status quo and all the main character does is just stand there looking indifferent (even oblivious) to the people's suffering and the said status quo. I really detest that. The same can be said if people in the game world are oblivious even when a war is ongoing.

And why did I mention the reality of war have something to do with maturity? Because it seems like most battles portrayed in RPGs and quite a number of games seem to verge on glorified versions of a battle rather than one with a human side of it. Sure, I have nothing against them but it would be nice if they view it from a different perspective. It's mature because there is a human tone rather than a glorified version of killing everything unfriendly. For example, Brothers in Arms: Road to Hill 30 stood out among the crowd of World War 2 shooters with the likes of the Medal of Honour series and the Call of Duty series to name a few because it portrayed the war from a different side. The human side of it when others are focused on the intensity and ferocity of a battle.

P.S. I apologise if I stray away from the question.

If your looking for a mature rated rpg look out for the witcher which will be released in september. From all accounts they will touch on some of the themes you want to see in a game. Just make sure you get any version but the US or German version according to the developers those 2 versions have had to be heavily censored.

Also the developers of Dragon Age claim they won't leave out mature content if it fits with their game. They feel they may also get a mature rating.

Personally I believe a lot of developers have gotten scared of the esrb and such and are aiming for as low a rating as possible instead of artistic freedom. I am pretty sure for instance had BG been released today it would gotten a higher rating then the teen it got when it was released. It's just a sad time we leaving in when artistic freedom has to give way for sales and low esrb ratings.

stefan wrote:Just make sure you get any version but the US or German version according to the developers those 2 versions have had to be heavily censored.

Not sure about the censorship but I recall that the US isn't as strict as the Germans. I don't know what was stated in their law but what I do know is that they (the Germans) will not rate a game if they find it 'inappropriate' or something. One example is from Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (German version) where the developers had to change the Crazy Ivan animation from blowing themselves up to planting the bomb before running away. They had to do this because of the law.

DesR85 wrote:Not sure about the censorship but I recall that the US isn't as strict as the Germans. I don't know what was stated in their law but what I do know is that they (the Germans) will not rate a game if they find it 'inappropriate' or something. One example is from Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (German version) where the developers had to change the Crazy Ivan animation from blowing themselves up to planting the bomb before running away. They had to do this because of the law.

From what I heard the German's are strict on the violence while the US are strict on the nudity.

Doesn't really concern me since here in South Africa we always get the Uk version.