Where are the M rated RPGs?

[Spike45]

I played this game when it first came out and it went into my library as one of the best RPGs ever made! I had my game stacked with all the mods/skins that could be found and was playing it at it's fullest. Now 3 years (?) later there still hasn't been a RPG on this level.

This thread actually started beyond me...I read an article in the newest PCGM and it just echoed what I've been thinking for a long time. Where are the M rated RPGs? I'm not just talking about M rated because of blood or gore...I'm talking about actual "mature" themes. Why can't they make more RPGs aimed towards an older crowd? Take Deus Ex:Invisible War, Fable, Gothic 2 or Vampire the masquerade:Bloodlines. All of those games dealt with "real" life situations and such. Language, sex, nudity, violence. Now this isn't a cry for a "bad boy" game or something like that. But if we can get R rated movies where are the game equivalents? Even "M" rated games are usually non "Mature"

Am I alone in thinking this? If not I'd love to hear some strike back.

[fable]

Moving to RPGs, where this thread belongs.

[DesR85]

This thread actually started beyond me...I read an article in the newest PCGM and it just echoed what I've been thinking for a long time. Where are the M rated RPGs? I'm not just talking about M rated because of blood or gore...I'm talking about actual "mature" themes. Why can't they make more RPGs aimed towards an older crowd? Take Deus Ex:Invisible War, Fable, Gothic 2 or this game. All of those games dealt with "real" life situations and such. Language, sex, nudity, violence. Now this isn't a cry for a "bad boy" game or something like that. But if we can get R rated movies where are the game equivalents? Even "M" rated games are usually non "Mature"

Am I alone in thinking this? If not I'd love to hear some strike back.

I'm also not too sure why. Maybe the developers in question are aiming for a much more wider market that includes the younger audience as well? Granted, I did play quite a number of games (different genres) with dark themes, atmosphere and such but I'm never a fan of those games. I'd tend to prefer games on a much lighter tone.

[AvatarOfLight]

I think that's really all there is to it. Games are just tailored for the entire audience if at all possible. You want your agetag to be as low as possible. Something else that might be influencing the videogame industry is the moral issue though. Create a game where you can suck the life from innocent children and you'll have a certain lawyer from Florida, who I won't explicitly name *COUGH* Jack Thompson *COUGH*, on your behind. Most will want to stay on the good side of the media no matter what.

[DesR85]

Something else that might be influencing the videogame industry is the moral issue though. Create a game where you can suck the life from innocent children and you'll have a certain lawyer from Florida, who I won't explicitly name *COUGH* Jack Thompson *COUGH*, on your behind. Most will want to stay on the good side of the media no matter what.

I doubt that could be the main reason, though it might be one of the factors as well. I do know that some game developers make M-rated games without getting into trouble with the law (or even that idiot lawyer, Jack Thompson). But then again, something worth to note nonetheless.

Off-topic: As for Jack Thompson, I hope he really runs out of money so that he won't be able to throw up frivolous lawsuits and eventually, will cease to be a menace to the gaming industry.

[Xandax]

Mainstream developers like money more then they like taking chances.
So they'll stick with what they know sells - dumped down gameplay with shiny graphics. That is why we see companies such as Bethesda doing no risk development of dumped down games and wrap it in graphics and sells it as quality thanks to PR.

Now - mature gameplay does not equal quality gameplay of course and I often steer clear of games which seems to feature nothing but "gore" for the sake of "gore" - but the symptoms are the same; it is safe and known vs. risk and chances.

A problem is also the American rating laws as I understand them - seeing as many game vendors aren't licensed to sell "M" rated games, so this further encourages developers to be "safe".

However, this is not an issue only with gamedevelopment, but all mainstream entertainment as I see it. Movies fall into clichés even more then before, having transparent and easy to spot plots and twists.

[mr_sir]

If a movie is released with heavy violence and sex then often it finds itself under a lot of criticism, it is the same with games. Of course games, just like movies, can be mature without having insane levels of gore and sex.

The main reason, in my opinion, that games tend not to be geared towards the mature market is simply because most older gamers work, have family commitments and so on. They do not have as much time to play games as the younger generation. The main gaming audience is seen as the kids and teenagers, and so games are geared to what they are perceived to want - shiny graphics, easy to follow plots, and games that require very little thought to play.

There are more mature games on the market, but they never really seem to sell as well as the ones aimed at all ages as most mature themed games tend to be geared towards a specific minority (such as the VtM games). The profit just isn't there so companies prefer to play it safe and produce games they know will guarantee the directors and shareholders get nice big fat bonus cheques (even if the actual people that do all the work get paid hardly anything in comparison). The people that ultimately make the decisions don't care about gameplay, stories or originality - they only care about profit.

[Trias12]

I have a few ideas as to what the problem is.

Part of it is the political environment we live in. I can’t think of any other country in the world were political correctness has gotten so far out of hand. People are so hell bend on playing the part of the victim that a lot of other are looking over their shoulder every time they do something. This can quickly lead to people not saying what they think or developers not adding mature content to games to avoid getting yelled at.

Part of it is the politicians. Most of them don’t really understand games and think the people who voted for them don’t either so they use them as an easy way to score brownie points in a hopes it will help them keep their job. This leads to developers toning down the game to avoid unwanted trouble.

Part of it is cost. Publishers see what sells and want to repeat that success as much as possible. As much as I think set-ups like steam are a really bad idea they may be the best way to get mature themed games to market.

There is some hope however. Conan, the first mature MMORPG, is coming soon. Hopefully Fallout 3 will maintain the mature theme of the earlier games. Bioware says Dragon Age is their darkest and most mature themed game yet. Don’t forget about The Witcher. It is rated mature by the ESRB. Maybe if these games do well at market distributors will allow the developers they fund to follow suit.

[Spike45]

It isn't true that "M rated games don't sell or can't be sold" I can name two HUGE sellers right now off the top of my head...God of War or Halo 2 anyone? It isn't that M rated games aren't being sold or even that they aren't out there. It's just that M rated RPGs are very few and far between.

[mr_sir]

It isn't true that "M rated games don't sell or can't be sold" I can name two HUGE sellers right now off the top of my head...God of War or Halo 2 anyone? It isn't that M rated games aren't being sold or even that they aren't out there. It's just that M rated RPGs are very few and far between.

They can be sold, but they do not typically sell as well as rpgs geared towards kids, such as Oblivion. There will always be exceptions but developers tend to go for the safer option and the most reliable market to guarantee sales is kids and teenagers simply because the more mature market tends to be harder to please, especially when it is an rpg. From reading through the threads on GB, a lot of older rpg gamers want rpgs to have better story, character development, puzzles, the ability to figure out what to do themselves and to choose what to do (ie non-linear) and so on. Yet from what I have heard and read, Oblivion is very dumbed down and is all about graphics. Why does Oblivion have such high sales compared to mature rpgs such as Bloodlines? Because the mature rpgs have a smaller market and the kids generally just want a game that looks good and is fun to play, rather than a game that absorbs you and makes you think.

[JFSOCC]

I don't really mind as long as it doesn't get as bad as morrowind, where "naked" dancers in a brothel, have their parts covered in fur, and not the good kind.

you basically get some clumsy poorly skinned model moving continuously.
I think you have to be a very sad pretty badly degenerate lonely UberGeek to have that do anything to you.

I invoke rule 34.

[DesR85]

I don't really mind as long as it doesn't get as bad as morrowind, where "naked" dancers in a brothel, have their parts covered in fur, and not the good kind.

I thought that game was rated 'T'? I thought content like that will surely net the game an 'M' rating instead.

[Aegis]

For the record, Oblivion was rerated to M sometime ago, and still is one of the better selling "rpg's".

[DesR85]

For the record, Oblivion was rerated to M sometime ago, and still is one of the better selling "rpg's".

I was aware of that. What I'm wondering is, why did Morrowind get the 'T' rating even though content like what JFSOCC had mentioned was present (I'm not referring to Oblivion)? It doesn't make sense.

[Aegis]

I was aware of that. What I'm wondering is, why did Morrowind get the 'T' rating even though content like what JFSOCC had mentioned was present (I'm not referring to Oblivion)? It doesn't make sense.

Because after the "hot coffee mod" scare from Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, the moral right began to really put pressure on developers and publishers, threatening costly and lengthy litigation if studios and the ESRB did not rate games more 'appropriately'. Morrowind came out before this debacle occurred, hence the lower rating.

Also, let us all be honest here, the ESRB ratings are a joke. While I support them in intent, a majority of them are misrated, often gaining a higher rating than they deserve, or being rated for something which does not exist within the game.

[Lady Dragonfly]

Let's drink from the source first, shall we?

ESRB ratings (except apparently kindergarten level):

EVERYONE 10+
Titles rated E10+ (Everyone 10 and older) have content that may be suitable for ages 10 and older. Titles in this category may contain more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal suggestive themes.

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

ADULTS ONLY
Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.
---------

As you can see, the ratings have nothing to do with the quality of games. It is all about amount of "adult" content.
Now, it is a matter of personal taste whether someone really enjoys virtual sex with topless pixels, "crude humor", and gruesome bloodsucking and mass murder or not. If someone does enjoy all that, fine. To each his own. But I would like those people who think that "adult" content as described above is exactly what makes an RPG a GOOD RPG, to explain why. Because for me, for example, a good RPG means something else.

A few words about Oblivion.
It is customary to criticize Oblivion on these boards, including by people who have never played the game to begin with, only "heard" about its allegedly dumb content. Well, Oblivion has some stuff in it I personally find disturbingly "mature". I am talking about sickening Dark Brotherhood quests.
The Shivering Isles extension is not exactly kiddy thing either.

[mr_sir]

A few words about Oblivion.
It is customary to criticize Oblivion on these boards, including by people who have never played the game to begin with, only "heard" about its allegedly dumb content. Well, Oblivion has some stuff in it I personally find disturbingly "mature". I am talking about sickening Dark Brotherhood quests.
The Shivering Isles extension is not exactly kiddy thing either.

I wasn't criticising Oblivion, simply pointing out that regardless of its content it was marketed towards younger gamers even if it does have an M rating. Every game has its fans and its critics, Oblivion is no different. The point that I was trying to make is that it appears to be easier to please younger or teen audiences than it is more mature gamers (purely from observing these boards it is quite clear that the majority of older gamers expect different things from a game than younger gamers). For this reason I feel it is easier to market a less mature game. However, when I use the term mature, it has nothing to do with sex, violence etc. but more the themes, and the whole gameplay (i.e. things like not having the solution to quests mapped out for you, storylines that are not quite so happy and fairy-tale like and so on).

[galraen]

Well, Oblivion has some stuff in it I personally find disturbingly "mature". I am talking about sickening Dark Brotherhood quests.
The Shivering Isles extension is not exactly kiddy thing either.

You must be taking a moralistic view on what constitutes 'mature' because as I recall the levels of violence in the DB quests aren't any worse than any other questline. Even from a moral point of view I'd say some of the fighters Guild quests are at least as questionable.

I have an objection to the DB myself both from a moral standpoint and because of the fact that they tried to kill me in Morrowind. However, if morality is to be taken into account in deciding whether a game is suitable for non adults, hardly any RPG I've played would qualify for under 18s.

[Lady Dragonfly]

I wasn't criticising Oblivion, simply pointing out that regardless of its content it was marketed towards younger gamers even if it does have an M rating. Every game has its fans and its critics, Oblivion is no different.

I used the word "criticize" instead of "trash" or “bash” just because I did not want to sound rude. There is nothing personal, really. I am just tired of the comments about "shiny graphics" (as if it is something negative) and "dumb down" gameplay (as if Oblivion is the worst game ever), repeated over and over like a sacred mantra. Funny thing, it was voted the best RPG of the year, and if memory serves, we had a thread in SYM about who was playing the game, and surprise, surprise, it happened to be adults.
I personally think NWN2 is ten times dumber. No, hundred times. I can name many other games I consider worthless. Why use Oblivion as a prime example of a “dumb kiddy” game every time? Let’s use another game for a change. There are plenty. No offence meant.

The point that I was trying to make is that it appears to be easier to please younger or teen audiences than it is more mature gamers (purely from observing these boards it is quite clear that the majority of older gamers expect different things from a game than younger gamers). For this reason I feel it is easier to market a less mature game.

I can't argue with that. We've discussed all this before.

However, when I use the term mature, it has nothing to do with sex, violence etc. but more the themes, and the whole gameplay (i.e. things like not having the solution to quests mapped out for you, storylines that are not quite so happy and fairy-tale like and so on).

And I agree. “Mature gaming” shouldn’t have anything to do with sex or violence. The ESRB rating is supposed to be used as a warning sign (e.g. for concerned parents), not as a pointer. The rating doesn't point at a good game mature, intelligent people might be interested in, just at the dubious “embellishments”. However, I was replying to the original post:

Originally Posted by Spike45
All of those games dealt with "real" life situations and such. Language, sex, nudity, violence. Now this isn't a cry for a "bad boy" game or something like that. But if we can get R rated movies where are the game equivalents? Even "M" rated games are usually non "Mature"

I personally have nothing against fairy tales without sex or “adult language”.

@Galraen

However, if morality is to be taken into account in deciding whether a game is suitable for non adults, hardly any RPG I've played would qualify for under 18s.

I suppose that is what prompts the allegations that intense virtual violence can influence the behavior of the youngsters.

[Yaster]

I used the word "criticize" instead of "trash" or “bash” just because I did not want to sound rude. There is nothing personal, really. I am just tired of the comments about "shiny graphics" (as if it is something negative) and "dumb down" gameplay (as if Oblivion is the worst game ever), repeated over and over like a sacred mantra. Funny thing, it was voted the best RPG of the year, and if memory serves, we had a thread in SYM about who was playing the game, and surprise, surprise, it happened to be adults.
I personally think NWN2 is ten times dumber. No, hundred times. I can name many other games I consider worthless. Why use Oblivion as a prime example of a “dumb kiddy” game every time? Let’s use another game for a change. There are plenty. No offence meant.

Well, I think that you answered yourself. Oblivion is the game of the year and is priced in majority game reviews. But it doesnt mean it is good RPG. It has many flaws. Yet competition recently is so crapy that Oblivion is the game of the year. Maybe even is the best rpg since kotor. Yet it has so much flaws.

It has really good graphic and really beautiful world but whats more? The character development is downgraded since previous parts of series (daggerfall especially), quest are too easy too accomplish, and they rather test how nimble are your fingers, not your wits and the worst imho: that lame story... goddamn, i just cant stand this all-powerful stone, saving-world lying in hands of one man like he has been a god or something, well it just doesnt speaks to me. I just toss the main story as soon as I can while I play oblivion.

But hey, It doesnt mean Oblivion is so bad. It rather means that the his style of playing with this game represent is rather bad (for some at least). Oblivion is a mark of the present time (I believe so). People (hmm maybe just group of people would be better said) are bored by games with nice look and simplify contents. As you can see from this topic some people wish to see more "mature" game, more complex and hmm, more serious I think. Well why there are not serious topics like... umm why all game ends in a good way, eitherway?... ohh okey, i think if i continue It will get even more confusing, for me for sure . I think you could get the point. People have different taste. Some does like vanilla rpg of TES4, some just are annoyed that there arent made games for them (in big studios. Big studio=big game). It is just like with the movies: some people watch Spiderman 3, King Kong etc. and are amazed with effects and technical glitches while other prefer watch films with make them think even when they left the cinema.