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To Spank or Not to spank?

Anything goes... just keep it clean.

Are you Pro, Non, or a Not sure spanker?

Not sure until the time arises
11
41%
Not sure until the time arises
10
37%
Not sure until the time arises
6
22%
 
Total votes: 27

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Philos
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Post by Philos »

When my wife and I were going through training to be foster parents, the issue of spanking was discussed numerous times. At least in my state, Tennessee, foster parents may NOT use corporal punishment in any form. Now Tennessee does not have any restriction on parents using on their own kids but not on foster kids. The reason, and I think it is a good one, is that most kids placed into foster care have been physically abused at some point or another. For some it might trigger flashbacks, for others it will simply be of nil effect (in short that kid thinks, "yeah, go ahead spank me, my old man hit me harder than that").

We came up with some creative ways to punish disobedience. The 13 year old boy we had was quite popular with the girls at school and like to smell good for them. When he acted up one time, we took away his good smelling deodorant and body wash, and gave him plain generic unscented stuff. :mischief: I think he would have rather we spanked him. :D Never acted up again. :)

All this being said, I think there are times when willful defiance and disobedience calls for spanking. It really depends on the kid's temperment and attitude as well as the situation. There are some kids that temperment wise should never be (nor would likely need to be) spanked. But there are some that might need that on occasion.
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Post by Vicsun »

Siberys wrote:Yes, I know, I was spamming this thread a bit with what I thought was an obviously sarcastic response to what I'd actually do to a child.
Then can you give an actual, non-sarcastic response to
Dragon Wench]I'd be curious to know what some of those ways are.[/quote wrote:
Vicsun, I certainly agree with your assertion that you are an unpleasant person. ~Chanak

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Post by Siberys »

Not really. For one, I gave a sarcastic response because I'm not big on posting argumentative statements that go completely against other people's beliefs (unless of course I'm trying to be sarcastic, in which case I might, depends on how sensitive the subject is).

But for another, I have no real experience with raising or even being near a kid being punished, so I have no real opinion on this matter anyways.
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Post by Ode to a Grasshopper »

As long as it's between 2 (3 for special occasions) it's alright by me...

Seriously, I voted pro-spank, but as noted there needs to be more variables included for a representative answer. On the one hand I know there were times when I deserved a good slap on the backside as a kid, and I probably should have got a couple more than I did (though by the same token there were one or two occasions I got one where there would have been more appropriate forms of punishment). I'd sooner try explanation and example over spanking, but that doesn't always work, especially with younger kids who can't necessarily understand the consequences of what they do. It'd be nice to think I'll never hit my own child/ren should I have him/her/them, but that seems a little unrealistic...
The main drawback with spanking my childhood self is that most of the time the lesson I came away with was "don't get caught" as opposed to actually considering why what I had/hadn't done was 'wrong' (usually because it was something that could have caused me serious physical harm), so it was kind of counterproductive in a way.

Short answer: The punishment should fit the crime. Spanking one's kids - only where warranted, and only in moderation - is okay by me.
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Post by Curdis »

I have to say that the whole issue (especially in NZ) is farcical.

What constitutes physical violence?

Restraint certainly does. So all of the; shut up in a room; confined to the naughty chair (etc.) stuff is also physical violence. If you do this stuff to an adult most places they have a legal redress.

Two of the most rabidly anti-spank parents I know routinely inflict the most appallingly violent psychological attacks on their children (lets just call it angry in the face yelling). If that is the alternative I say go the spank. - Curdis.
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Post by Maharlika »

As far as my family is concerned, spanking is done followed immediately with proper processing of the child. Children should never be spanked just because you had a bad day and they annoyed you at that time. Also, never spank out of a whim and use your authority as a valid reason. Lastly, never slap a child. Spanking the bottom or the thigh is the best place.

I grew up getting spanked whenever I deserve one and I never resented those times that my parents hit me.
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Post by BlueSky »

Maharlika wrote:I grew up getting spanked whenever I deserve one and I never resented those times that my parents hit me.
Same here, and I deserved every one I ever had...:laugh:
But in raising my child I never spanked even once or raised my voice..
When punishment was called for, we took away privileges away...
TV, telephone use, ...and heaven forbid her gaming systems.... :D
Once after she ran down the hallway to her room and slammed the door in disgust with her parents, she awoke the next morning without a door to her room.
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Post by fable »

BlueSky wrote:Once after she ran down the hallway to her room and slammed the door in disgust with her parents, she awoke the next morning without a door to her room.
Clever. :) I think your general approach is a very good one. As far as spanking is concerned, even if some kids "deserve" it, a lot has to be considered in line with temperament, lack of socially developed controls, etc. Even the person who thinks spanking worked for themselves, may find that it makes a given child's behavior worse--or worse still, makes that child feel unloved, or go completely emotionally out of control.

And spanking seems to me such a final step, in a sense, that sense being that it's a physical invasion by the most trusted, yet threatening, large creatures in a child's environment. Once it's done, it can't be wished away, and the effects may be unexpected. That's even assuming the parents are incredibly calm, level-headed, compassionate people. Which many are not.
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Post by DarthMarth »

BlueSky wrote:Same here, and I deserved every one I ever had...:laugh:
But in raising my child I never spanked even once or raised my voice..
When punishment was called for, we took away privileges away...
TV, telephone use, ...and heaven forbid her gaming systems.... :D
Once after she ran down the hallway to her room and slammed the door in disgust with her parents, she awoke the next morning without a door to her room.

I have had both of these punishments used against me(more recent than some of you may be thinking) and I believe they are not very helpful. First of all taking away what the child enjoys seems like a bad idea, not only can the child resort to some other form of entertainment but it's bad for the overall relationship. Why should s/he talk to you about what they enjoy when they think you're just gathering information on what type of punishment you should use. Not to mention it's demoralizing and they probably think you're not taking their problem seriously.
As for the door, slamming a door does nothing, in fact it's better. It releases anger in a better way than most, and makes them think they had the upper hand thus ending any power struggle. Taking away the door is merely an invasion of privacy. The child will either behave until what they want is back thus causing a never-ending cycle, or they will attempt to take it by force. While I feel the only way you can ever change someone is to lead by example, Spanking does seem to be slightly helpful in extreme cases. Spanking will send a message to the child that you are serious especially when it's such a controversial issue; "zomg my parents just risked going to jail to punish me." Spanking may cause "psychological damage" and that's exactly what they need: a change in mindset. Also, physical punishment has worked for thousands of years, why fix it if it ain't broken? especially in light of such recent events at certain schools...
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Post by Dottie »

DarthMarth wrote:I have had both of these punishments used against me(more recent than some of you may be thinking) and I believe they are not very helpful.
sinbad71 wrote:Having been on the receiving end of a few well deserved spankings in my time, it has given me a a very clear definition of whats wrong and whats right.
Are there any particular reason you believe that you perception of your own upbringing is representative, or even accurate? I can just as well claim I've never been spanked and have grown up to be mother Theresa. Anecdotes have very little value when it comes to determine causality of anything.
Also, physical punishment has worked for thousands of years, why fix it if it ain't broken? especially in light of such recent events at certain schools...
I don't know if that was meant seriously or not, but that a behaviour have been in practice for a long time is obviously not an indication of it's desirability, as I'm sure you agree.

Regarding the effects of spanking APA has, as usual , made information about it available for free, and in full.

Summary:
Is Corporal Punishment An Effective Means Of Discipline?

Article:
http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1284539.pdf

As you can see, this suggest that corporal punishment is in fact broken.
Spanking may cause "psychological damage" and that's exactly what they need: a change in mindset.
And still, data suggests corporal punishment does much to change a child's immediate behaviour but does not change their mindset.
Article above wrote:Moral Internalization
Although immediate compliance may be a salient goal when
parents initiate discipline, promoting the development of children’s
internal controls is more important to long-term socialization
than immediate compliance (Grolnick, Deci, & Ryan, 1997;
Hoffman, 1983; Kohlberg, 1969; Lepper, 1983; Piaget, 1932/
1965). Moral internalization is defined by Grusec and Goodnow
(1994) as “taking over the values and attitudes of society as one’s
own so that socially acceptable behavior is motivated not by
anticipation of external consequences but by intrinsic or internal
factors” (p. 4), and it is thought to underlie the development of
children’s social and emotional competence (Kochanska &
Thompson, 1997). Children’s internalization of morals is thought
to be enhanced by parental discipline strategies that use minimal
parental power, promote choice and autonomy, and provide explanations
for desirable behaviors (Kuczynski & Hildebrandt, 1997).
Attribution theorists emphasize that power-assertive methods suchas corporal punishment promote children’s external attributions for their behavior and minimize their attributions to internal motivations
(Dix & Grusec, 1983; Hoffman, 1983; Lepper, 1983). Additionally,
corporal punishment may not facilitate moral internalization
because it does not teach children the reasons for behaving
correctly, does not involve communication of the effects of children’s
behaviors on others, and may teach children the desirability
of not getting caught (Hoffman, 1983; Grusec, 1983; Smetana,
1997).
@Curdis: Surely, when people talk about corporal punishment they refer to inflicting physical pain? If used in that sense restraining would not qualify.
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Post by xraygord »

Can't really see discussing this unless a lot more variables like those above are included in the discussion. For myself, my mother spanked a lot, repeatedly, and angrily, while shouting, then graduated to slapping and punching whenever she didn't like something, which she kept up into my teens. Can't really see fitting that into the old pro/anti dichotomy.[/QUOTE]


I obviously wasn't there, but it sounds like your describing abuse and not spanking, there is a world of difference between the two. I was spanked on occasion(I deserved it) and I do not think anything was wrong with it.
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Post by fable »

xraygord wrote:I obviously wasn't there, but it sounds like your describing abuse and not spanking, there is a world of difference between the two. I was spanked on occasion(I deserved it) and I do not think anything was wrong with it.
I think you're engaging in semantics. It was certainly abusive, but it still involved, among other things, spanking. If my mother had stopped at spanking, had never slapped any other area, used a fist, or raised her voice to scream, she still could have used spanking as a means to administer abuse. Because even if you feel that spanking is sometimes warranted, if it is applied in anger, more often than needed, for longer or harder than needed, for no good reason, it is abuse.

I'm not prepared to state whether spanking is abuse for anybody else's conceptual universe, but in mine, it is. If I had a child, I certainly wouldn't spank them. There are other methods of showing disapproval at various stages that don't involve physical or psychological attacks, and that's how I see such attempts to intimidate and dominate a child.
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Post by Curdis »

Dottie wrote:<EMMENSE SNIPAGE>@Curdis: Surely, when people talk about corporal punishment they refer to inflicting physical pain? If used in that sense restraining would not qualify.
The semantic side of things is going to make this discussion very difficult.

In my example I was comparing (one of) the offered alternatives and demonstrating (anecdotally) how it was in my opinion NOT better than spanking.

Whether or not restrain causes pain probably depends on how actively it is resisted. My point was not about pain it was about the use of physical force as a means of sanction/punsihment. To single out this one act (spanking) and effectively allowing every other form of abuse that does not involve striking a child is what I am claiming is farcical.

I have been the step father to two girls, one very naughty and willful, and have never spanked (House policy was non-biological parents could not spank) so I am not completely on theoretical ground here.

Personally I agree that spanking (and other forms of corporal punishment) is completely ineffective. However - If the heavy hand of authority is to intrude into the private lives of as all I would like the intervention to be based on what is effective, or if it is to prohibit what isn't then it needs to cover all the other forms of abuse out there. As it stands this is (In New Zealand) bad legislation and is pandering to what amounts to being a current fashion. - Curdis
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Post by Maharlika »

Social context and culture are big factors.
fable wrote: I'm not prepared to state whether spanking is abuse for anybody else's conceptual universe, but in mine, it is. If I had a child, I certainly wouldn't spank them. There are other methods of showing disapproval at various stages that don't involve physical or psychological attacks, and that's how I see such attempts to intimidate and dominate a child.
To be honest, what I see here is a difference in culture in the kind of upbringing parents do when raising and disciplining their kids. If I'm not mistaken, most Asian cultures have corporal punishment as a staple choice in disciplining kids.

What worked for us, given the context in our culture may not necessarily work for others.

What I do observe is that FILIAL PIETY is very strong in Asian cultures and corporal punishment is somehow interlinked with this in the sense that there is the unwritten trust that the adult knows what he is doing and how to properly administer corporal punishment. Hence, corporal punishment in itself is not looked down upon. What matters is that you do it the right way with the good reason, coupled with proper processing of the child.

With this, I speak of Asian cultures. Perhaps the Occidentals' notion and concept of such punishment has somehow linked it to more on the abuse part, hence the negative issues surrounding it.

When I was watching Nanny 911 I can't help but comment if such problem kids are indeed the norm in the West. For us, such behavior is often associated to rich spoiled brats here in the Philippines or even Asia --- meaning to say, such is not the norm.

It is not uncommon to see tough guys soften up when they are castigated by their elders. These guys may beat others to a pulp but when it comes to their aging elders they would wince and accept their faults and perhaps change for the better when they get berated by them.

I rarely spank my son. But if I do, I always process him and use such punishment as a last resort. More often than not, such unwanted or inappropriate behavior is not displayed again. Sometimes, all it takes is a stern look or verbal warning before such unwarranted action could even take place.

It's not an exercise of domination as far as where we are coming from. We see it more as being guideposts or fences that would give them an idea which lines they should not cross.

Think of it as an electric fence right before the cliff: The kids can enjoy the area from the fence as far as the other direction would take them --- but never the other direction that would lead them over the cliff.

@Dottie: this study that you presented, did it include Asian families as well? Or was this study limited to Western families? ;)
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Post by Dottie »

Curdis wrote:However - If the heavy hand of authority is to intrude into the private lives of as all I would like the intervention to be based on what is effective, or if it is to prohibit what isn't then it needs to cover all the other forms of abuse out there. As it stands this is (In New Zealand) bad legislation and is pandering to what amounts to being a current fashion. - Curdis
I'm not sure I agree here. Obviously I would prefer a system which prohibits abuse in any form, but there is also a question of practicality. It's very hard to make any effective laws when it comes to psychological forms of abuse.

If you can make a law that increases detection chance of only a part of abuse cases, or decreases probability of parents using harmful upbringing methods, then I consider that positive, even if it isn't completely consistent with your ethical values. Principles is not the best ground for law-making imo.
Maharlika wrote:
When I was watching Nanny 911 I can't help but comment if such problem kids are indeed the norm in the West. For us, such behavior is often associated to rich spoiled brats here in the Philippines or even Asia --- meaning to say, such is not the norm.
Nanny 911 is extreme cases, but I think you are correct that the type of behaviour is probably a lot more common in Europe than in Philippines or Asia in general. But I believe that the horrible upbringing of European, and in particular Swedish kids, are due to ideological causes, rather then lack of corporal punishment. You need only spend a day walking around in Stockholm and you would see plenty of examples on how parents allow themselves to be controlled by their children, and don't seem to consider it problematic.
Maharlika wrote:
@Dottie: this study that you presented, did it include Asian families as well? Or was this study limited to Western families? ;)
The study is a meta-study, meaning it compiles data from a lot of other research. I imagine the original data would be very west oriented though.
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Post by Maharlika »

This hits it right in the head.
Dottie wrote:But I believe that the horrible upbringing of European, and in particular Swedish kids, are due to ideological causes, rather then lack of corporal punishment. You need only spend a day walking around in Stockholm and you would see plenty of examples on how parents allow themselves to be controlled by their children, and don't seem to consider it problematic.
This drives home what I was trying to point out: culture. Based on Dottie's argument, the lack of corporal punishment is not much of their concern. If kids are allowed to control their significant adults and that such isn't considered as problematic, then where is the real need for spanking?

For a greater number of Asian cultures I don't think that kids are allowed the wherewithal to do as they please and be the ones in control.
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Post by Curdis »

Dottie wrote:I'm not sure I agree here. Obviously I would prefer a system which prohibits abuse in any form, but there is also a question of practicality. It's very hard to make any effective laws when it comes to psychological forms of abuse.

If you can make a law that increases detection chance of only a part of abuse cases, or decreases probability of parents using harmful upbringing methods, then I consider that positive, even if it isn't completely consistent with your ethical values. Principles is not the best ground for law-making imo.<snip>
We may have to agree to disagree here. My objection to a spanking law is precisely because it leads to a situation where a parent such as Maharlika is brought before the court for an act which may, in all the circumstances, be very mild abuse, if abuse at all, (I personally think spanking IS ineffective and IS abuse) while a parent who practices severe emotional abuse or severe emotional deprivation can only be sanctioned under a broader 'causing harm'/'not providing appropriate care' statute.

Laws protecting children exist in most areas, and most certainly do in NZ. What is the likely nett the benefit of this particular (and ridiculously specific) law?

My previous comments regarding pain and restraint? - Curdis.
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Post by fable »

Just came accross an interesting substitute for spanking, as written by Maxim Shostakovich, the composer's son, in a little book on his father that's hard to come by. He notes:

Father got very upset if I did something wrong...and if I did it again he had a phrase which always used to frighten me: "Please come and see me in my study. I need to have a serious talk with you."

When I went into his study, he would say to me: "you prmised me it wouldn't happen again and here we are." Then he would take a piece of paper and say: "Write down I shall never do such and such again...now sign it...and put today's date."

Then this sheet of paper went into his desk drawer. And if I ever did it another time, he would ask me into his study again, reach for my receipt and say: "Here's your signature and broken promise again."

At which point I can't tell you how ashamed I felt.


Obviously, this wouldn't work for very young children, or chidlren with behavioral disabilities, or with parents who were themselves observed to display a hypocritical disconnect between word and deed. But it is a pretty devastating technique for reprimand, when you think about it.
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Post by Lasher »

someone spank me, i'll tell u if its right or wrong.

seriously tho,
and spanking is effective if used effectively, in teaching kids ur desired "morals" and such.

a kinda scary example, personal, so bear with me^^ : i was adopted when i was an infant, by a friend of my birth mother's family. my birth mother was 15, and was into drugs and such, and i spose decided adoption was best choice. anyways, the point is, that her mother shortly after, became conservatively religious in an extreme way, aka Menanite's (sp). my birth mother had another child about 5 years after me, which was adopted (or at least lived there his whole life so far, idk) by her mother. i've visited both, my birth mother and grandmother, mum's pretty much white trash and was on lotsa meds, and grammy, her 8 or so kids were the best behaved kids u'll ever see. i'm telling u, nothing u've seen in movies, or w/e comes even close. her husband was around, i think, when i visited, but i didnt see much of him. i'd visited once when i was 13, and once when i was 18. Grams was very loving, and always kept them busy with chores, but when i misbehaved (age 13) she swatted me with more vigor than, outside of outright beating, i've ever seen. she told me, u get 3 spankings, i thought, "this will be a breeze *^^*" but little did i know that 1 spanking = 5 swats with a monster azz wooden spoon >,<; what i'm trying to say is, while its extreme to raise kids without television, radio, video games, and with the fear of god instilled in them from an early age, physical discipline is a very reaspnable tool in shaping your childrens thinking.

and i know ppl will shake their heads at "shaping ur childrens thinking", it is a rather conservative point of view, which i dont rly agree with, but in reality, any way of parenting your kids, whether thru more "modern" ways mentioned above, shape a childs view in the same ways, if not the same ends, as any other form of discipline :)

and forgive me, i do have a lil bit of a devil's advocite in me, but i do think this.
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Post by Ivan Cavallazzi »

My mom never spanked me.

When i made something wrong she said:
-"Go to your bedroom, and think about what you did... then come to talk to me"
5 mins later:
-"Mom i already thought about what i did"
-"No you didn´t, back to your bedroom and think a bit more"

Heh, it was always like this.
Worked for me, and i think i ll probably use this method or something near to my sons.
Cause i believe chieldrens copy and use as example their parents. Then i want my sons to take the best of me. Spanking is definitelly not the best i can do.
And more important than that, there are other ways to make your son understand that he made something wrong, other ways to make him feel guilty, other ways even to inflict pain... just by talking to him, without any phisical agression.

Back to the childrens copy parents issue. I really prefer my sons evolve dialetics and verbal control; than violence control. Even knowing that sometimes words can be far more agressive than phisical agression.


See, anyway the relationship is not equal. You are the father.
There is no way your son spank you if you made something wrong(except for those nany tv show, where the children really spank their parents lol)
As, there is no way your son outcome you in a dialetic/verbal control/punishment.
So, the relationship is not equal, and is not suposed to be equal. Is just a matter of witch button you are pushing... and i think the second one is better.
Still, i guess somehow the verbal control alow a bit more of feedback, and contestation by the children(what i think is good).

I am afraid that by spanking my son he ll reproduce the act as cowardice, against other childrens, against lower childrens, etc... cause undoubtly he ll notice that he is bigger than some people as i am bigger than him.
Sorry for my english... =/
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