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Perfect, Thanks alot

Columbo wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that you (kathycf) seem to be an advocate of the Enchantress over the Valkyrie, is their any reason or just personal preference?

Hi Columbo

Valkyrie is a good class, with some good bonuses but it is far more of a melee class than anything else. Enchantress is definitely a magic users class.

The combination I had first mentioned adept/mage enchantress/battlemage warwitch is one that allows a primarily magic oriented character to be able to use heavy weapons, shields and armor, with most of their learning bonuses coming from magic. For that route, warwitch gives bonuses to all magics so you end up with 3 bonuses for celestial, 4 for arcane magic, 1 for rune and 1 for nether. So, even though you don't get learning bonuses for straight forward weaponry you do get bonuses for armor/shields, plus magic weaponry, you can use heavy weapons and you can still get an extremely powerful spellcaster.

I had a valkyrie and it was very fun....but she was definitely a fighter class. Adept/ fighter marauder/valkyrie deathlord...good stacking bonuses for armor, shields, weapons and with dual wield and the ability to use any weapon (including heavy poles).

Surely understand about taking the break part before starting a new character...I just returned to playing the game after 3 months.

Thanks again

I think first time through I'll go with my original plan of Rogue, Adept, Valkyrie, Paladin, War witch.

I may not get as much magic bonuses but I still get 1 Arcane, 2 Celestial, 1 Nether and 3 Rune and 2 Magic Weapon.

On top of that I get Heavy Pole and a few weapon bonuses as well as a load in armor.

I also get sneak, steal and identify.

For a first time run I think I have most things covered for me to learn from.

Again to all those that gave great advice - Many Thanks.

Your most welcome

I understand that you only want to beat the game once but I think it would be a bit of a shame if afterward you uninstalled it and put it on the shelf without having tried the dual wield weapons skill or ninjitsu amongst other things. But it's up to you of course

There are something like fourteen different bosses to beat for just your last class tier so there are many different ways to play the game. The only thing that is the same is the quests for the relics and the story line.

Anyways....have fun!

Da Wiz :mischief:

I wouldn't shelve it but I wouldn't play it again immediately after either, I just can't play a game that I've just completed again straight away.

Games like Sacred for instance where you have to complete the game on Bronze then again on Silver, Gold, Platinum e.t.c frustrate me immensely.

Dual Wield has got me thinking though and has given me a headache as well.

I really like the sound of it as I rarely seem to use a shield so I might as well get extra damage instead but to do that I either have to go Ninja Lord or scrap the Rogue class altogether but then I really like the idea of Steal and Identify.

The Fighter, Adept, Marauder, Valkyrie, Deathlord that Kathy mentioned seems like a fun and deadly combo but it's magic bonuses are severely lacking and I do want to incorporate as much magic as I can.

But then I guess with all the points saved in the huge Armor and Weapon bonuses there should be plenty left to flesh out "Some" magic schools.

So now I have some fresh questions.

Clearly that class combo is heavily Melee but if I added magic as a backup which from all I have read makes the later parts of the game much easier (I'm not into torture :laugh: ) will I be severely hampered not having either Scribe or Channel?

If I can get away with it should I focus on say 1 or 2 magic schools or evenly use all 4, if only a few, which ones?

Also though I'm loathe to giving up Identify is it really needed? I understand you can get items ID'd at a shop and also that characters without Identify can sometimes ID something if they are lucky.

What I mean is right at the very first chest I keep loading until I get the Elven Sword but it needs identifying, what happens if I equip the sword unidentified, do I get a penalty, how does a character survive out in the wilds away from a town for a long time without ID?

Anyway sorry for inundating you with even more questions - I promise I'm nearly done

And Thanks Again.

first 5lvls and dual weild combo's

hi there

as for the first 5 lvls or starting area i like kathy go with int and minimal skills, just enough to use weapons properly.i get myself about 15 potions built up also, reg heal potions that is, is usually enough with the sewer drops to get me thru the sewers.which means usually somewhere between lvl 3 and 5 i enter the sewers.

early skils i get are repair lvl1 only, identify lvl1, and whatever i need to run weapons all at lowest possible lvls tell i get thru theater and into fargrove.
main skill i work on early is thief skills to get chest open, with lvl 4 and lock picks thou u can get anything u need out of sewer and theater.

as for dual weild combo and being melee type (i like getting up close and personel with mobs). i went with rogue war for starting 2 then valkyrie and samuri.

i like valkyrie because of armor for 1 but also because the lady u need to kill drops the second best heavy pole weapon in the game. u got that early it makes everything easier.plus after u do the progression quest after the valkyrie u get a 20% damage bracer. increase all your melee damage.

i do samuri for the diabolic skill inflict wounds, works well for massive low lvl mobs and u get light dual weilf from it as well.

now here is where i differ from a lot of guys, i go shadowlord(is collectors eddition only) . u dont get another heraldry, but u do get the ability to pretty much ignore all spell damage and take minamal melee damage . shadowlord is a diabolc skill and if u have high enough skill lvl in it u can stay in that form pretty much all the time, is the only invokeable skill in the game, works just like a spell.it is also the longest wait to get the third tier class because u have to do shadowruins before u get it.

if u want more info on this setup thou just look in the forum post tactical fighter. me and scott have been discussing different ways to do there for a little while now

hope that helps

the shaman

Thanks, That sounds superb.

I will certainly read through that post.

I especially like that you include the Rogue class - which is my personal favourite starting class for Identify alone.

Shadowlord sounds interesting.

I'm not sure if you have already posted this in your other thread but is there a possibility that you could post a screenshot of your characters skills - as a newbie to the game it would help me immensely figuring out how many points to allocate to which skills.

Many Thanks.

Columbo wrote:I wouldn't shelve it but I wouldn't play it again immediately after either, I just can't play a game that I've just completed again straight away.

Games like Sacred for instance where you have to complete the game on Bronze then again on Silver, Gold, Platinum e.t.c frustrate me immensely.

Dungeon Siege 2 does something similiar....you have mercenary, veteran and elite levels (I believe that is what they are called) and it is one of the reasons I don't play Dungeon Siege 2 a whole lot. No law against taking a break in between levels though. But I think if any game is played too much it gets boring, so completely relate to what you are saying here.

Columbo wrote: Anyway sorry for inundating you with even more questions - I promise I'm nearly done

And Thanks Again.

I think the other folks have been enjoying discussing the game with you, and I know I have. I have been following the tactical fighter thread too, just because it is so nice to have people really want to discuss the game. It seems a lot of people register to ask one question and never return. Not that it's wrong to do that, but it makes the forum more fun (for me at least) to actually discuss tactics and stuff other than "How do I get into Arindale?". So, thank you! :laugh:

Anyway, any build is going to have some disadvantages. I think you have to weigh what style of combat you are going to employ most and what bonuses are going to serve you best...if you want primarily magic, then go with mostly magic skill bonuses and so on for other types of skills. You can use points that you save from big bonuses on skills that you don't get such big bonuses on. Or not worry about them over much...there really is no one "right" way to complete the game.

Several second tier non rogue classes offer identify as one of their new skills, it isn't simply a thief skill, it's a magic skill. If you equip a weapon that isn't identified (or a shield/piece of armor) the only penalty you suffer is if your skill level or strength isn't sufficient to use the item. If you have enough skill/strength to use an Elven sword in the newbie forest you can use it without penalty even if it isn't identified. The drawback to this is if you equip an item that needs repairing you will be unable to repair it until it is identified. Weapons never need repairing so that part at least doesn't matter.

Also, even if you don't have identify skill, you can still take a stab at identifying something...you right click on the item and it will tell you your chances of doing so. A wrong guess will prevent you from identifying anything for a while, but when enough time passes (or camping) you can try again. For steal...well. I like it too, and it is one of the more entertaining thief skills, but I played three characters quite happily before ever even trying the skill out.

Personally, the only two schools of magic I focus on are arcane and celestial. Nether magic has poisonous cloud a level 5 spell I like, but other than that...I rarely bother with it. It is mostly summoning spells and I feel like the summons get in my way anyway....purely subjective on my part. Rune magic is ok, but again...many of the spells don't work or they are "buff" spells I can live without. Shards of Stone is a good rune magic spell that does lots of damage but Rune stones and spells (you need both) are extremely expensive and you have to go all the way up to Grymlock in the Northern Steppes to purchase them. You can occasionally get rune stones as treasure from a chest...very occasionally. A few spells are sold at other shopkeepers, but the spells themselves never seem to come out of chests (unlike arcane books...) To me, the best offensive spells are arcane magic spells. There are a few spells that are broken, but most do work and if you are a member of the guild of mages you can buy (and find out of chests) all the spells you will need...while expensive, they are much less costly than rune magic spells. Celestial is good for a few things....lightning crystals work pretty well on most creatures, the healing summon (while she gets in the way) is a very useful summon and the crystal of levitation is my hands down favorite.

While not having at least one skill: channel or scribe (having both is very nice) will hamper you a little....by the time you would earn those skills with class promotions you can afford to buy some spells. I find having 20 or 30 spells to work out ok for me, if I know I am going to be using primarily melee anyway. Don't forget camping will help you in this...camping replenishes your spells.

*edit*

Forgot to mention...check the sticky re: non-working spells at the top of the main DL page (if you haven't done so already).

And yet another edit...

You can read what strength requirements are for items in the database...skill levels are never stated on an item (as in requires light weapons 3 or something) so you have to guess. If you know your strength meets the requirements and still get a penalty, you can figure out what skill level the item needs.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlords/equipment.php

I always wondered why they couldn't put what skill level was needed along with strength, but I guess that would take all the ever so fun guesswork out.

Here is how I spent my points attribute wise. This is over the last couple of nights and the character is now level 10. I am just now going for my second tier classes.

[url="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/kathycf/lucy_stats.jpg"]Screenshot 1[/url]

She is still working with the throwing knife she found in that first chest in newbie forest. :laugh:

[url="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/kathycf/lucy_rock.jpg"]Screenshot 2[/url]


I missed reading the part where you were asking about skills, Columbo. For here, she needed medium weapons and armor both at 5 for Valkyrie and Imperial and pole weapons three for Imperial. I am getting Imperial first since Valkyrie requires light pole 5 and I can use all the learning bonuses I can get...especially since Valkyrie requires rune magic 5 too.

Since the requirements are fairly high, I have reached level 10 before really feeling ready to meet them...and is a reason why the character's stats outside of intelligence are low right now. I only raised them enough to meet class requirements.

In general with raising skills for armor/shields and weapons....raise your skill levels in these to meet the requirements for the item and/or class requirements. Having a light weapon skill of 50 isn't any more advantageous than having a light weapon skill of 7. I never raise honor any higher than meeting class requirements...I personally think it is the most useless thing to spend points on.

I think raising skill level in magic is useful...makes the spells work better and makes them more powerful. Athletics over 4 is iffy....I like it to be around 8 or 9 because the character takes falls better and can swim under water longer but that is subjective. Bargain can be raised high and works better at high levels but after a certain point gets ridiculous....shopkeepers will buy something from you at at a higher price then they will sell it to you for...sort of reverse capitalism. High repair isn't worth it IMO, because you can spend a few gold to get stuff repaired and gold is worth less than points any day to me. Scout and Identify are good, but I don't think they need to be very very high either. I try to get a scout of 5 and if I get the identify skill, I also put that at around 5. It works for me.

Again, all this is my style of doing things, thusly subjective. Find what works for you and fits your personal style.

That is absolutely superb, thank you Kathy.

I think I'm going to follow the Rogue, Fighter, Samurai, Valkyrie, Shadowlord path.

Very poor on magic bonuses I know but I will choose 2 schools and focus on them with the points saved from the huge armor and weapon bonuses I get.

I have the broken spells jotted down for reference - Thanks.

Can I ask one last thing?

This may be obvious but when the spells have a level, like you mentioned Poisonous Cloud - level 5 - does that simply mean you just need 5 points in Nether magic to cast it or is it more complicated then that?

Again Many Thanks.

Columbo wrote:That is absolutely superb, thank you Kathy.

I think I'm going to follow the Rogue, Fighter, Samurai, Valkyrie, Shadowlord path.

Very poor on magic bonuses I know but I will choose 2 schools and focus on them with the points saved from the huge armor and weapon bonuses I get.

I have the broken spells jotted down for reference - Thanks.

Can I ask one last thing?

This may be obvious but when the spells have a level, like you mentioned Poisonous Cloud - level 5 - does that simply mean you just need 5 points in Nether magic to cast it or is it more complicated then that?

Again Many Thanks.

You're welcome and feel free to ask as many questions as you like. I can be chatty, so as mentioned before I am more than happy to discuss the game. :laugh:

Actually, your question isn't all that obvious, because the game allows you to use items that you don't meet the requirements for (with penalties of course) and spells are similiar. The only spells that won't work if you aren't the right level are summoning spells. The catch is, the spell is less effective (sometimes much less effective) at the "wrong" level than it is otherwise. I do some leveling to get my points in nether magic to at least 3 or 4 because I find the spell useful and it works at that level. Getting nether to 5 isn't that hard...killing some big creatures helps with that, as any other skill.

But, poison cloud doesn't do tons of damage anyway even at level 5...not like a blast nova. The difference is, you can mix a nether spell, but blast novas are only available to mage's guild (unless you find one, then you can sell it to a shopkeeper and they will sell as many copies as you like). I can't say why I like the spell so much, I just find it works well for me.

Your combo sounds fun, and I think samurai is a good class with Valkyrie. You can easily get your rune magic skill up to 7 due to valkyrie's learning bonus and if you like, try out the anti-magic shield and shards of stone...both are pretty good rune spells.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlords/runemagic.php

Thanks, you've opened up a new question hehe.

So some spells can never be bought unless you join the relevant guild?

So I can never learn some Mage skills if I only join the Rogues and Fighters guild BUT there is a workaround by selling tomes to the shopkeepers?

Is that right?

Does this work for all schools of magic or just Mages and Arcane magic?

Thanks again.

Celestial magic too. I don't know if any guild increases ketals and runes? You can't expect all the spells you want to drop from chests/monsters so if your not in the guild you have less selection.

Rune magic and nether magic aren't associated with guilds, so you can buy those spells. Grymlock and Ferous Duul have the best selection of those spells respectively. Nether spells also occasionally drop or are found in chests too.

Since arcane magic and celestial magic are associated with guilds, if you aren't a member of those guilds, they don't sell you "the good stuff". They will sell a few spells, but as Claudius mentions, you can't expect all your spells to come from chests. Not only would there be less selection, you would only have just a couple of spells as it is far more reliable to buy them at the shops. That being said, there are a couple of spells that aren't available in the store and must be found.


One other thing I forgot to mention was with weapons you can earn experience by using the weapon. You have to put the initial level into the skill, but you can whittle down the experience points required to increase the skill by using the weapon.

I got my thrown weapons skills up to three and only spent the points to get level one...the rest came by using my throwing knife. If you want to decrease the number of points you spend on a skill, use it as much as you can....this works regardless of learning bonus or not. Although a learning bonus will decrease the number of points overall so the process goes quicker.

Thank You once again.

You mentioned Blast Nova being Mage Guild only unless you find a copy, then you can sell it to the Mage vendor and then be able to buy as many copies as possible regardless if you have joined the Mage guild.

Now does that work with ALL the Mage only spells and does this also work for Celestial spells?

Thank You.

*Edit*

Thanks for the weapon tip - didn't know that and good to know.

Wow! I didn't know that about using the skills makes the cost lower. Does it work with armor too??

I found you can sell any spell (celestial, arcane or whatever) and they will re-sell it to you. I don't even bother to go to the guild of mages shop, I sell the stuff to Grunmeir at Arms of Argus. If you decide to sell spells in this fashion SAVE your game FIRST.(just to be safe!)

When I had sold some crystals of levitation to Paulus in the Circene temple several months ago, he did not sell them back to me. I don't know why...possibly something to do with his own store inventory...which is why I sell stuff to Grunmeir now and I never have a problem doing it that way.

Claudius wrote:Wow! I didn't know that about using the skills makes the cost lower. Does it work with armor too??

Sadly, no. I think you have to use the item, not simply wear it, so higher intelligence and learning bonuses are the only way to decrease those particular costs. I had noticed it when I was taking notes....yes notes in a little notebook...I really am that dorky. I thought it was a glitch, albeit a good one for a change, but I checked the walkthrough and you will find the same information under "game play tips".

kathycf wrote:
One other thing I forgot to mention was with weapons you can earn experience by using the weapon. You have to put the initial level into the skill, but you can whittle down the experience points required to increase the skill by using the weapon.

Did some testing of this myself and came up with something interesting.

As you say the xp needed does indeed lower the more you use the weapon but at a certain point, probably 0 although exact figure I'm not sure of, the skill automatically increases and resets the xp needed.

I am at the shacks in the newbie forest and have 1 in throwing weapons and haven't put any points in anything else (Going to level to 5, save and then distribute points) and have noticed my throwing weapons is now 2 without me putting the point there.

So in theory if you have the patience you could level all your weapon skills by only putting a single point in them and just keep using the same weapon over and over - with the added bonus that weapons dont need repairing.

Columbo wrote: I am at the shacks in the newbie forest and have 1 in throwing weapons and haven't put any points in anything else (Going to level to 5, save and then distribute points) and have noticed my throwing weapons is now 2 without me putting the point there.

So in theory if you have the patience you could level all your weapon skills by only putting a single point in them and just keep using the same weapon over and over - with the added bonus that weapons dont need repairing.

Sorry, I didn't state that explicitly before...yes the increase is a natural progression of lowering the points by using the weapon. Good to see you are really taking an interest in the game, Columbo. I think you will notice gaining levels more with skills you have a learning bonus in, and I am sure you have noticed this already, but the higher the skill level climbs, the more points you need to increase it.

Which means that at some point you are going to have to spend your advancement points on skills because it would take soooo long to level up just by using the skill. My current character has no learning bonus for archery and I got her to level 5 by whittling away points and increasing the skill when the costs were lowered enough...actually she went to level 1 to 3 with no points spent and after I just spent points when I felt they were low enough. There is a bow you can buy in the CE that you need a level 5 in archery for. But...level 6 was over 45,000 points away. I got it down to 38,000 and am not worrying about it since I don't need to advance the skill for any reason. However, if you want to get going with something and need a certain skill level you would have to be *very* patient to simply progress in levels just by using the weapon. Not criticizing, just making a point.

Weirdly enough, weapons don't take damage, only armor. You would think if they were going for this realistic approach, both would but there you go. Speaking of realism...ever notice how a throwing knife automatically appears in your hand right after throwing it? I wonder at the programmer's sometimes...they want a realistic portrayal in some things but others they are fine with pure fantasy. :laugh:


Please continue to post your progress, I am very interested. I've not played ShadowLord, so curious how you will find it.

Thanks, will do, just entered the sewers so a long way off yet.