The Grey Griffin Lounge and Coffee House

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:53 am

What would happen if it turns out that our mathematical model, which is the basis for a lot of our laws and regulations, is proven wrong?? Is this possible?

Omar · Post by **Omar** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:03 am

What do you mean with mathematical model exactly? The geometry of space-time? Since the advent of General Relativity this four-dimensional space-time model has become the basis of the entire description of nature,except for quantum mechanics I believe.
If this model is proven to be wrong then we have to rewrite the entire physical description in terms of the new model(if there is any) and make sure that these laws will take on the approximate form that they show in the 3D-approximation here on earth.
If it is possible for such a thing to happen? I have no idea as of yet...

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:31 am

I don't know a lot about what you are talking, but I have always wondered. We have the simple theory that 1+1=2. What would happen if this simply wasn't true? Is it at all possible that this isn't true?

Take for example a triangle. The angles of a triangle add up to 180degrees, yet we know that this is not true in real life.

edit: Thanks Brink for that small reminder. I wonder where my brain is at today. Yes I know you guys also wonder where it is the rest of the time.

[This message has been edited by Flagg (edited 03-20-2001).]

Brink · Post by **Brink** » Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:48 am

Flagg-If I know my Mathematics correctly,the inside angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:57 pm

*bump*

I just love intellectual conversations.

I'll come up with something to debate later.

In a meantime, here is a music...

<Scheherazade by Rimsky-Korsakov>

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:53 pm

Flagg, I suspect the truth of 1+1=2 may rest, in part, upon an assumption that physical reality is reality, pure and simple. There are certainly ways of applying mathematics to arrive at 1+1=3, and there are many spiritual disciplines that would suggest 1+1=1.

Lord Berkeley once pointed out that sensory reality was a vicious circle, depending upon itself for its own proof of existence; and science has merely extended that. Still, I feel obliged to treat every reality with the respect due to authority in its own limits, and have dutifully avoided jumping in front of moving vehicles as a means of paying local homage to the powers that be.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 8:23 pm

@Minerva: nice pice of music

I don't know whether this thread is dead or not, but I hope not. I don't mind astrophysics or maths, but here are some other topics I'd like to hear your opinions about:

1. Knowledge is a time limited product, it's won and lost across time and place. To avoid lengthy philosophical discussions about the nature of knowledge, let's just conceptualise knowledge as a system of believes, shared by a culture or a society at a given time, and commonly considered "facts". (Ie "The sun orbits earth", "Evolution of the species occurs by natural selection".)
Anyway, historically, the introduction of new knowledge that contradicts fundamental believes in a society, can sometimes lead to revolutionary change in society as a whole as well as in the way we view ourselves, our role and the world around us. Examples of this in modern history would IMO be Galileo's rediscovery of the knowledge that the earth is orbiting the sun and Darwin's evolutionary theory stating that the human species descends from the apes. (I'm sorry I'm only able to use examples from the Christian European part of the world, I'm shamefully ignorant about history and development of knowledge in other parts of the world. )
In science, this kind of "breakthrough" change when a set of fundamental principles has to be replaced by new ones due to new discoveries, is called a shift of paradigm.
So, what do you think has been real paradigm shifts for man historically? And what kind of events would you imagine could induce future paradigm shifts in the way we live and perceive ourselves and the world?
(And don't give me things like "Gamebanshee shutting down" or "Flagg swearing a vow of celibacy").

Personally, I think of things like extra-terrestrial visitors, understanding of the nature of consciousness or hard evidence for existence of transcendental beings.

2. Most of you know that the complete human genome sequence was published last autumn. What do you think will be the impact of this first step toward an understanding and control of the human genes? A huge topic, but here's a more narrow question also:
Genes that control aging in the nematode C Elegans

have been found. By manipulating these genes, mutant worms that live 5 times longer than normally, can now be bred ( Lakowski B & Hekimi S. Determination of life-span in Caenorhabditis elegans by four clock genes. Science. 1996 May 17;272(5264):1010-3.)
Many researchers in genetics believe that these genes would be the same in human, or at least that age controlling genes will now be much easier to find in humans. Prolonging the human life span by genetic engineering is no longer SF, it's probably possible within 30-50 years.
What consequences, negative and positive, do you think will follow if/when the possibility to live 300-400 years will become a reality for humans?

3. What is the function (I won't ask for the nature, the moderators would probably not like that

) of religion? Why is it that virtually all known cultures in historic time has had believes about transcendent beings and dimensions? What role has religious believes played in the evolution of mankind and society?
A note: A twin and adoption study is a where a large cohort of twin pairs were compared, demonstrated a high genetic influence on religiosity (Tellegen A et al. Personality similarity in twins reared apart and together. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 1988, 54, 1031-1039). Whether the twin pairs were reared together or separated early made little difference. It also turned out that whether or not their family environment had been religious in both cases, in only one case or in no case, the similarity in religiosity was much higher for monozygotic twins than dizygotic.
Now, what do you make of that?

- A small thing bothering me at the moment: How on earth should one relate to cultured tissue? I mean, it's not an individual, but it's still living materia and should somehow be respected as such. Suggestions?

Sorry for the long post!

[ 04-15-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 11:59 pm

Cool another set of serious topics to talk about....

On the genome project. The earth is heading towards very serious trouble if they are able to increase the age span of humans to 300-400 years. We are currently overcrowding the planet already, and we don't want to know what will happen when we increase our lifespan. This would mean a huge shift in our living pattern.

The major problem would be in shifting to this new living pattern. We would have a time period in which new children are born at the same rate as is happening currently and in which people will be around longer. Imagine what will happen to the Earth's population. That could prove disastrous to humankind. That is one of the problems that we need to address early on.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 12:06 am

On the function of religion:

Let me start with a note: I respect everyone's viewpoints and beliefs. My viewpoints are not meant to be offensive in any way. They are my belief and that is all. Nothing more and nothing less.

I belief that human is curious by nature. We have a need to know everything around us. We apparently can't cope with insecurity. As we have discussed in this thread, there are certain things that we simply can't have a clear and definite answer to (at least not at this point in time). A couple of such questions would be the meaning of life, the existence of the universe, etc....

It is my belief that religion has in part to take away the insecurity of mankind when dealing with such issues. I understand that this varies from religion to religion, and that I am generalizing.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 6:21 am

@C E: Sure, this topic may have some life left in it. I'm sure we can get Minerva to chime in as well.

On paradigm shifts: I can't think of many true revolutionary ideas that had major long lasting [and by long lasting I mean centuries long] effects. Just to be clear I am separating 'ideas' from scientific discoveries, which almost by nature tend to be revolutionary. I think I could make the best argument for Constantine's acceptance of Christianity. This is generally accepted to be the pivotal moment in the new religions growth. The very same religion that dominated western culture for centuries and acted as the catalyst for such remarkable events as the crusades, the inquisition, the burning times, as well as affecting western politics for the better part of a millennia. Strange how ideas undergo a type of unnatural selection of their own… Not based on fact or usefulness, but there *are* definitely selectors at work, allowing some ideas to thrive while other perish.

On unnaturally long life. Strange isn't it? With the wealth of information that can be garnered from the human genome project, and the implication that many genetic defects can be detected and perhaps corrected, the only thing anyone can think to get excited about is living forever. Blame the media for sensationalizing good science. Do I really want the guy with NRA bumper sticker who cut me off this morning in the ultra-fast passing lane while talking to his toothless half-sister/wife on a the cellular phone living as an immortal?? I say improve the quality of life and leave immortality to the high elves

. Not that I think it really is possible to do what the news programs would have us believe. Sure we may have programmed obsolescence in our genes, but it is likely an adaptive trait… ie there is a good reason for it.

Religion at is origin, at it's most simple incarnation, is a coping mechanism. Giving reason and explanation to that which confused or frightened early man. Secondly it gave his common sense rules and practices divine rational. It's one thing to explain to your son when the best times to plant and harvest are, but have the times ordained by the crop deity, the better to make sure the information transfers from generation to generation. Does religion still have a purpose? For some people; definitely. For others; a qualified 'maybe'.

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 10:54 am

On paradigm shift: I agree with Waverly that there is hardly any revolutional ideas in the real sence I can think of. However, I think the concept of 'zero' (I don't know how exactly it is called in English) is one of the idea truely changed the way we think. It proved 'zero' is countable and is different from 'nothing'. 'Nothing' or total emptiness is not zero, as zero is something exist. I don't know how to explain better... Though, if you can understand what 'nothing' really means, you would be closer to be a buddha...

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:24 am

@Minerva: 'Nothingness' is what I have left after paying my bills the first of every month

How do you think the concepts of zero and null (nothingness) apply to the average person in everyday life?

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:43 am

Actually, nothingness is what you have after paying taxes.

Brink · Post by **Brink** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 6:02 am

Mathematical question:what is the answer for 0 divided by 0??

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 6:05 am

Question: Why do i care?

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 6:06 am

@Waverly: That is actually a very difficult question... At least, I can say even after you pay your bill and feel left with 'nothing', it is not relly 'nothing'... You still have your possession, car, clothes, house, job, and ultimately, yourself.

The closest thing to null I can imagine is the inside of blackhole, but since blackhole itself exists, is that really null? I don't know. The meaning of 'nothing' or null does not exist, because it's nothing--no life, no time. Probably, that is where God created the world from...

[ 04-17-2001: Message edited by: Minerva ]

Brink · Post by **Brink** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 6:07 am

Mr. Sleep-I don't care wether you care or not

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:30 am

@Darkpoet: Bah, I thought you only had 30% income tax in MI. I live in Sweden, the home of social justice and equality

and most professionals pay about 50% income tax and 25% VAT on all products and services.

@Minerva and Waverly: I think "nothingness" is a concept our human minds can't really fathom, like "endlessness" or "eternity". The words exist as symbols of phenomena we can only come close to, or understand via allegories. I doubt that the human mind in its present state can conceive these things other than as theoretical contructs. Maybe it's different for zen monks?

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:36 am

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>@Darkpoet: Bah, I thought you only had 30% income tax in MI. I live in Sweden, the home of social justice and equality and most professionals pay about 50% income tax and 25% VAT on all products and services.

@Minerva and Waverly: I think "nothingness" is a concept our human minds can't really fathom, like "endlessness" or "eternity". The words exist as symbols of phenomena we can only come close to, or understand via allegories. I doubt that the human mind in its present state can conceive these things other than as theoretical contructs. Maybe it's different for zen monks? </STRONG>

But, when you own your business. I pay close to 50% in taxes, not to mention insurence. But, you are right each country is different.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:40 am

@Brink, 0 divided by 0 is 1. Any number divided by itself is one.

Of course other answers are also arguable...