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I've finished the OC now.

Enervation sucks. It's not very effective in campaigns, due to the number of undead, and those immue to enegative energy.

In pvp, I'm beginning to think it's useless as well.
It’s necromancy, so Mages have shadow shield against it (not to mention spell mantle); it’s negative energy, so clerics and druids have death ward against it; it’s a touch attack spell (albeit a ranged touch attack), so against rogue, archers, and monks you're out of luck (especially when they have concealment). That’s almost everybody. Who is left out? Only fighters with no access to divine spells, who are vulnerable to other spells, such as ray of enfeeblement (a much cheaper spell) and interposing hand (a much more effective spell).

I am extremely pissed when my orbs get foiled against concealed critters. I should probably expect that in PvP.

mbz wrote:I've finished the OC now.

Enervation sucks. It's not very effective in campaigns, due to the number of undead, and those immue to enegative energy.

In pvp, I'm beginning to think it's useless as well.
It’s necromancy, so Mages have shadow shield against it (not to mention spell mantle); it’s negative energy, so clerics and druids have death ward against it; it’s a touch attack spell (albeit a ranged touch attack), so against rogue, archers, and monks you're out of luck (especially when they have concealment). That’s almost everybody. Who is left out? Only fighters with no access to divine spells, who are vulnerable to other spells, such as ray of enfeeblement (a much cheaper spell) and interposing hand (a much more effective spell).

I am extremely pissed when my orbs get foiled against concealed critters. I should probably expect that in PvP.

Yup, Enervation is for really tough Fighter types, **in conjunction with** Ray of Enfeeblement and Bigby's Interposing.

As to it usefulness on a continuing basis.. it's rarely used. But those occasions where you can (and should), it works pretty well. I can think of a few battles in MOTB where it could be useful (..and one battle in particular in SOZ). It is better than the 9th level Energy Drain.

due to our common understanding...I've decided to scrap enervation for Improved Invisibility, and displacement for my favorite flame arrow. The latter is also of limited use against opponents other than straight fighters (maybe also archers and monks)

Come to think of it, enervation (maxed version) only deals 50 hp damage and -4 AB, for 4 negative levels. I'm much better off using empowered flame arrows, which deals 28d6 * 150% = average of 130 damage. Taking into account of a successful reflex save : 65 damage.

Energy Drain is a joke. I was wondering why game developers consistantly put this "worst utility for price" spell in BGII , NWN, and NWN2.

due to our common understanding...I've decided use my last 2 swap options to scrap enervation for Improved Invisibility, and displacement for my favorite flame arrow. The latter is also of limited use against opponents other than straight fighters (maybe also archers and monks)

Come to think of it, enervation (maxed version) only deals 50 hp damage and -4 AB, for 4 negative levels. I'm much better off using empowered flame arrows, which deals 28d6 * 150% = average of 130 damage. Taking into account of a successful reflex save : 65 damage.

The -4AB can be a real life saver in the toughest conditions.. but then again you do have Divine Shield (..and plenty castings of it). It also effects saves, BUT you have offensive spells that aren't contingent on saves. Now if it *stacked* (..and really it should), THEN it would be a rather excellent spell. Something you'll need to test (..i.e. see if it "stacks" with itself or not.) (..and I *think* I remember it stacking when taking on the "boss" in SOZ.. spaming it from a wand no less.)

Considering the addition of Divine Shield and that Enervation is in the 4th level grouping.. yeah, the smart choice is probably nixing it. (..unless it stacks with itself.)

Energy Drain *would* be fantastic if they balanced it out. So would several of the otherwise useless spells at 9th level - like Weird and Wail of the Banshee. Morons..

arh...should have waited for your post before leveling up two levels last night. Now I might have to revert to an ealier save.

Enervation DOES stack. After 9 castings of maximized Enervation on a Orglash, it finally dropped dead. Negative levels lower saves and BAB, but don't seem to lower hit points. It takes the same amount of damage to kill one with/or without negative levels. It took me only 4 maximized flame arrows (at caster level 20) to kill the same critter.

So now again I have a tough choice...

Flame arrow is almost completely useless in Pvp because its damage is calculated seperately for each arrow. Fire damage reduction of 25 would be more than enough for defense. (I've just tested this on the battle of builds mod)

Enervation on the other hand deals no hp damage and is probably only useful (though marginal) against pure fighter type opponents (such as "Thuggernaut"). 8 successful hits and the opponent dies for sure- actually, all I need is 3 or 4, followed by a vampiric feast. It's not as useful as flamearrow in campaigns...

I guess for a PvP build, Enervation takes precedence over flamearrow...

I am now more prone to take a save or else spell at Level 2, such as Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Blindness/deafness

Would you choose Enervation over an Orb, if an Orb is not yet chosen?

mbz wrote:arh...should have waited for your post before leveling up two levels last night. Now I might have to revert to an ealier save.

Enervation DOES stack. After 9 castings of maximized Enervation on a Orglash, it finally dropped dead. Negative levels lower saves and BAB, but don't seem to lower hit points. It takes the same amount of damage to kill one with/or without negative levels. It took me only 4 maximized flame arrows (at caster level 20) to kill the same critter.

So now again I have a tough choice...

Flame arrow is almost completely useless in Pvp because its damage is calculated seperately for each arrow. Fire damage reduction of 25 would be more than enough for defense. (I've just tested this on the battle of builds mod)

Enervation on the other hand deals no hp damage and is probably only useful (though marginal) against pure fighter type opponents (such as "Thuggernaut"). 8 successful hits and the opponent dies for sure- actually, all I need is 3 or 4, followed by a vampiric feast. It's not as useful as flamearrow in campaigns...

I guess for a PvP build, Enervation takes precedence over flamearrow...

I am now more prone to take a save or else spell at Level 2, such as Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Blindness/deafness

Would you choose Enervation over an Orb, if an Orb is not yet chosen?

For PvP:

I'd require 2 orbs, one at level 1 and 1 at level 4 (probably sound and acid respectively). With the exception of damage-type Immunity (..or area silence for sound), they are almost unstoppable. (..of course the secondary effect is pointless.)

Because Enervation does stack, I'd also require it. Note that there *are* wands of Enervation in campaigns.. so they *might* be allowed on any given server. (..*if* you can use that then you can give up Enervation.)

Epic Dodge will be the real problem with both the Orbs and Enervation.. but you have Issacs for that.

I'd either pick breach at level 4 OR at level 6, and I *prefer* 4.

Anything else is up for grabs at level 4. Even Assay.. which can be replicated via MD and also through multiple Breaches.

I like flame arrow.. but it shouldn't be a priority for a PvP build.

I never felt the need to use Assay in any given situation yet...

Highest SR is 41, MD lowers it to 31. My CastLev. is 28. I miss 10% without Assay. Duh....

Orbs are good. But I still consider Lesser Issacs more reliable. Concealment is common and it doesn't appear to be dispelled by MD. Epic dodge as you said completely negates orbs. And moreover, Energy Immunity cannot be breached, but spell mantles can. Also, Iron body gets 50% acid immunity.

I consider the 4th level spell more of a campaign spell, or "finish up" backup spell (in case the stronger Issacs run out). If opponent is bull rushed, it's going to die no matter what.

mbz wrote:I never felt the need to use Assay in any given situation yet...

Highest SR is 41, MD lowers it to 31. My CastLev. is 28. I miss 10% without Assay. Duh....

Orbs are good. But I still consider Lesser Issacs more reliable.

Assay does have it's use.. but IMO it isn't really a requirement.

Some pure Monk builds and a few racial leveraged Monk builds can get higher than 50. 30th level Cleric or Druids can achieve 42 with the spell.

The best thing about Assay is that it doesn't count as an attack.. so it doesn't "out" you from Ethereal Jaunt.

The Orbs are the only thing that can counter spell level immunity (excepting Epic Feat spells). They are also in a "school" that no one ever seems to have an immunity to. Finally the Orbs don't spread to multiple opponents, and "stack" for purposes of overcoming elemental damage reduction (..and do so even better with empowered castings). Note that not to many players will put up elemental immunity on all elements (..usually it's "look at the opponents weapons" and go from there.)

As far as school immunity, it pretty much depends on the server you enter and what sort of immunities it will allow. Remember: there are a few rings out there that confer immunity to Evocation, and several items that confer immunity to Mind and Death effects (..though not both on one item that I'm aware of). ..And that's just looking at campaign items.

Thanks...obviously I overlooked the Ring of Leeched Abjuration.

I will take Orb of Acid and dump Icestorm (I kind of miss this no-save evocation spell).

I won't regret not taking polar ray though. It's evocation, and it's average damage is lower than a maxed IGMS. I took protection from spells just to fight against swamp lung. That said, my spell book is fixed (in case anyone still cares):

Level 1: Shield, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Lesser sonic orb, Reduce Person (can be used on enemies to dramatically increase chances of being bull rushed)

Level 2: Mirror Image, Blind Sight, False Life, Ghostly Visage (lasts long. Slight relief for mundane adamatine weapon protection and backup concealment), Gust of Wind (disperses any area effect, including storm of vengeance)

Level 3: Improved Mage Amor, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Concealment, Haste (to increase success chance of touch attacks and to haste summons...it's better than flame arrow in PvP)

(everything below was discussed already...)

Level 4: Assay Resistance, Lesser Spell Breach, Enervation, Orb of Acid

Level 5: Fire Brand, Lesser Mind Blank, Lesser Spell Mantle, Interposing hand

Level 6: IGMS, Bigby’s Forceful Hand, Ethereal Visage

Level 7: Shadow Shield, Energy Immunity, Ethereal Jaunt

Level 8: Horrid Wilting, Premonition, Protection from Spells

Level 9: Bigby’s Crushing Hand, Shadow Simulacrum, Mordenkainen’s Disjunction

Humm... I wonder what happens if I encounter an epic rogue who has epic dodge, immunity to both evocation and necromancy spells, and on top of that immunity to criticals. Her AC will be in the mid 50's thanks to high dex, deflection, natural armor, armor, dodge, which makes any summons other than Simmies useless. I guess my only solution would be to run arround with ethereal jaunt, and cast simmies.

Epic: Vampiric Feast (Gate?).

mbz wrote:Thanks...obviously I overlooked the Ring of Leeched Abjuration.

Humm... I wonder what happens if I encounter an epic rogue who has epic dodge, immunity to both evocation and necromancy spells, and on top of that immunity to criticals. Her AC will be in the mid 50's thanks to high dex, deflection, natural armor, armor, dodge, which makes any summons other than Simmies useless. I guess my only solution would be to run arround with ethereal jaunt, and cast simmies.

Epic: Vampiric Feast (Gate?).

Almost no one has immunity to the necromancy school (..Shadow Shield is an exception for Mages).. they rely on immunity to death effects instead. That leaves Horrid Wilting. :mischief:

Epic Gate is useless against an Epic Rogue. Shadow Simulacrum is however excellent (..and while it is a "Touch" type spell, it isn't a Touch Melee *Attack*.. but you do have to be able to see/hear your opponent and you must be very close in range.)

On top of that you can still cast spells from scrolls.