Sorceror Spell and Feat Selection (experts needed!)- may contain spoilers

[mbz]

I've read a lot of posts on the web on Sorc spell selection, and came up with mine, but still can't decide on the complete list. This is supposed to be a power gamer build, to work effectively in campaign parties, and excel in PvP. Any help would be appreciated.

Classical level progression: Sorceror 6/ Paladin 4/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep 10
Name: Elendil. Alignment: Lawful good
Race: Drow... (I'm aware of the penalties. I've played BG2, IWD2, and NWN all with an elven Sorceror, so don't make me change race on this one)

Stats:
Option 1:
STR: 14. DEX: 12(10). CON: 12. INT: 12(14). WIS: 8. CHA: 20
Depending on the importance of Spot and Listen skills taking into account of the Elf's keen bonus, swap Dex for INT. Might have to waste a feat to take able learner, which will make me very feat-tight in the end.

Option 2: (CHA is too expensive.)
STR: 13, DEX: 14, CON: 12, INT:14, WIS:8, CHA: 19. Take Able Learner definately. I have more breathing space, lose 2 CHA (which basically means everything to me) and might be able to take Tower Shield Prof.(if it is at all useful) in the end.

Level Progression:
1. Sor: Spellcasting Prodigy
2. Sor
3. Pal: Power attack (Squeeze in Able Learner?)
4. Pal
5. Sor:
6. Pal: Divine Shield
7. Sor
8. Pal
9. Sor: Practiced Spellcaster: Sor
10. Sor (xp penalty occurs)
11. EK
12. EK: Empower Spell
13. EK
14. EK
15. EK: Skill Focus: Spellcraft
16. EK
17. EK
18. EK: Still Spell
19. EK
20. EK
21. ASC: Automatic Still I
22. ASC
23. ASC: Automatic Still II
24. ASC:
25. ASC: Automatic Still III
26. ASC
27. ASC: Great CHA (squeezed out by able learner?)
28. ASC
29. ASC: Epic Spell: Vampiric Feast or Great CHA or Tower Shield Proficiency
30. ASC

Spell Selection (there is usually a spell known that I am not unsure at each level. the ones in "()" are the "unsure" ones):

Spells: (level 1-2: five, 3-5: four, 6-9: three)

Level 1: By order of "sureness": Magic Missile, Protection from Alignment-affects others too!, Grease( to be tested…), Ray of Enfeeblement-to increase chance of success for the bigbys, (Shield/Night Shield, Enlarge Person, True Strike-there is no divine might to supplement this……color spray-only against low level chars? lesser sonic orb is bugged to do the damage of the regular orb?)

Level 2: Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Blind Sight, Gust of Wind (does “Web” affect spell casting, if so then choose Web!), (False Life, Eagle’s Splendor, bear’s endurance, Cat’s grace,…Knock )

Level 3: Displacement, Flame Arrow, Haste, (Scintillating Sphere, Protection from Energy)

Level 4: Ice Storm-14d6max dam comparable to level 5 area spells, Assay Resistance, Enervation-must have for pvp, (Elemental Shield-good as the old version, Lesser IMS…Evard's Black Tentacles-6sec/r)

Level 5: Fire Brand, Lesser Mind Blank, Lesser Spell Mantle(for quickend spell), Cloud Kill-very good, can drop CON to 0, and it’s Necromancy! Prop Shadow Shield up and you can’t hurt yourself.
Reason not to choose Bigby's: there are plenty single target disabling spells, does not help with the other bigby's (unlike ray of enfeeblement).

Level 6: Always a lot of choices at spell level 6...(as in the old games)
IGMS, Greater Spell Breach, Bigby’s Forceful Hand-must have, mage killer!6sec/r-and can be quickened!

Level 7: Shadow Shield, Spell Mantle, Ethereal Jaunt(bugged? I'm on 1.22 1588)

Level 8: Not enough good spells here.
Horrid Wilting- fire/cold area damage so far, (Premonition, Iron Body…Greater Shout-10d6).

Level 9: Bigby’s Crushing Hand, (Wail of Banshee-can be substituted by an Empowered Horrid Wilting-30d6?, Shadow Simulacrum-needs to be tested-6sec/r, Mordenkainen’s Disjunction)

*Key Issues:
-Confirm: True Seeing cannot pierce Ethereal Jaunt
-Confirm: True Seeing cannot substitute spot/listen skills -> Omit True Seeing.
-Under the effects of Iron body/Stone body, the maximum DEX bonus is +1? or the original armor DEX bonus(e.g. +3)? If 1, then take DEX 10 at char creation.
-Does being under the affect of Web affect spell casting? If so, choose Web instead of Gust of Wind.

Thanks!

[Scottg]

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/never ... 16000.html

[mbz]

thanks,
more?

[Scottg]

thanks,
more?

Did you read the whole thing?

If so, look to the spell listing to see which spells you can do without and then replace those with spells you think you will need.

BTW, you don't need more than 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Grace (for improving your saves). Divine Shield isn't worth it, nor are the additional levels of Paladin.

Note that "do it all" characters rarely are terribly successful until nearing the end of a full 30 level build.

Basically what you have planed currently is a mediocre melee'er and medicore spell caster.

To improve this situation consider:

6 levels of Sorcerer
2 levels of Paladin (1 level has the multi-class penalty)
9 levels of EK
1 level of Sorcerer (..Skill Focus: Spellcraft, this level has a multi-class penalty)
1 level of EK
10 levels of ASoC
1 level of Sorcerer (this level has a multi-class penalty)


Look to a *Tensers* build for augmenting your melee ability. Basically cast Mirror Image, Heroism, Haste (extended or persistent), Ethereal Visage (extended), and finally Tensers (extended). Note that you can't cast spells while in Tensers, but you don't need to. You can add Death Armor (persistent) to the list and Elemental Shield if you want. Consider Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave - as they are all operable while in Tensers.

[mbz]

Oops, I didn't read your whole build...b/c it's entirely a different character.

It has rogue and pale master levels without divine grace (and divine shield). You waste a feat on skill focus-concentration, and you lose 2 caster levels in the end. Why do you need PM 10? To get critical hit immunity. But Iron body already provides that, all you need is to take auto still, which I'm going to take anyways.

"BTW, you don't need more than 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Grace (for improving your saves). Divine Shield isn't worth it, nor are the additional levels of Paladin."
- point well made. Because Divine Shield lasts way too short (probably 9 rounds for 9 ac at the most).
However, giving up divine shield for 2 sorc levels is only going to bring my caster level up 1. What can you do with 1 additional caster level aside from getting a more powered flame arrow, and slightly better chances of dispelling and counter-dispelling? I don't think it's a mediocre caster build. It's only next to perfect. And the fact that a lot of people use this build (I'm not the creator) means that the build itself is very good. 9 AC (9rounds) for 1 caster level, you may feel free to disagree, but I personally think it's worth it, especially against tough melee opponents.

I still don't quite understand why you choose a costly level 9 spell, Shades, and Incendiary Cloud, Acid Fog, etc. You get more spell choices out of shades, of course, but shouldn't that be an below optimum option that should be used only in emergencies? I wouldn't consider "Tensers" since it prohibits spell casting, and nothing is more important IMO than spell casting for a mage. My character is built for party fire power, pvp, and focuses on spell casting. So I would be more grateful if you could sumit suggestions that pertain more closely to my theme in the future.

Any comments on Spot/listen/search checks in PvP?

[Scottg]

Oops, I didn't read your whole build...b/c it's entirely a different character.

It has rogue and pale master levels without divine grace (and divine shield). You waste a feat on skill focus-concentration, and you lose 2 caster levels in the end. Why do you need PM 10? To get critical hit immunity. But Iron body already provides that, all you need is to take auto still, which I'm going to take anyways.

But also stated *up front* is the fact that it focuses on **spell selection** and the spell's use.

Sure, they aren't the same build.. Again, not the reason for providing the link - so there isn't much point in discussing that build (..beyond spell selection of course). (..though to answer the questions anyway - that immunity to criticals is *very* nice to have for the final fight in MOTB. In addition, it's of course a spellcasting continuation class, provides summon capability, and most importantly ADDS ALWAYS-ON AC bonuses. As for why no Iron Body - that's explained.)




When I mentioned "mediocre", what I'm referring to is:

For melee capability: That it won't be nearly as good as a purpose built melee build.

For spell casting: That it won't be nearly as good as a purpose build spell-caster.

Why?

Attributes, Feats, Spell Selection, equipment, etc..

For instance: a good Fighter build can focus on fighter feats and Strength that a mixed use character could never do. In a level 30 build you reach a native Strength of 40 in some builds, and THEN stack on additional Strength modifiers to get it up even higher. Then add-on all the weapon focuses and the specializations. Attack numbers and Damage numbers sky-rocket.

[mbz]

"For spell casting: That it won't be nearly as good as a purpose build spell-caster."

I still don't see why "it isn't nearly as good as a purpose built spell caster". I focus on caster spells(such as breaches, mantles, and assay resistance), I pump CHA to insane levels with compliment from attribute enhancing equipment, which helps spell DC, number of spells, saving throws, and divine shield AC. It's melee is going to be mediocre, or even suck, but who cares. I didn't take Pal and EK for the combat bonuses anyways. I took them for the feat saving combination + Paladin bonuses. What more can you expect from a spell caster, who has nearly perfect spell casting, very good saving throws, and an AC that warriors would envy? (by the way, with CHA enhancing equiptment, Divine shield can well go over +13AC for 13 rounds, that will give an additional 65% of enemy miss chance- assuming that my AC falls within enemy AB range. Think about that with concealment + Mirror Image + Iron Body + Premonition. My caster will be VERY safe, and safety from weaponary damage is THE thing that troubles most casters the most)

Ok, let's just maintain our differences and discuss on the real topic, MY topic.

Are you going to comment on Listen/Spot/Search skills in PvP combat and my spell selection in brackets or not? (is the third level spell: Protection from Energy useless if I have spell mantle on?)

Anyone?

By the way, as for melee: once out of spells, my Eldrich Knight of Candle Keep will cast elemental shield (maybe along with death armor) on himself, withdraw his shield and wield his long sword in both hands...a desperate attempt to survive, but trust me or not, it's still going to make a difference.

[Scottg]

"BTW, you don't need more than 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Grace (for improving your saves). Divine Shield isn't worth it, nor are the additional levels of Paladin."
- point well made. Because Divine Shield lasts way too short (probably 9 rounds for 9 ac at the most).

However, giving up divine shield for 2 sorc levels is only going to bring my caster level up 1. What can you do with 1 additional caster level aside from getting a more powered flame arrow, and slightly better chances of dispelling and counter-dispelling? I don't think it's a mediocre caster build. It's only next to perfect. And the fact that a lot of people use this build (I'm not the creator) means that the build itself is very good. 9 AC (9rounds) for 1 caster level, you may feel free to disagree, but I personally think it's worth it, especially against tough melee opponents.

I still don't quite understand why you choose a costly level 9 spell, Shades, and Incendiary Cloud, Acid Fog, etc. You get more spell choices out of shades, of course, but shouldn't that be an below optimum option that should be used only in emergencies?

I wouldn't consider "Tensers" since it prohibits spell casting, and nothing is more important IMO than spell casting for a mage. My character is built for party fire power, pvp, and focuses on spell casting. So I would be more grateful if you could sumit suggestions that pertain more closely to my theme in the future.

Any comments on Spot/listen/search checks in PvP?

To "work effectively in campaign parties and excel in PvP" was your requirement.

In both cases it's *level dependent*.

Are you planning on playing the OC with this character? The 2 level racial penalty can be brutal on a caster, and a few levels of Paladin without a Strength build aren't going to help. In this context you *need* those sorcerer levels asap, because that's where the power is. The OC caps at level 20 and with a 2 level penalty effectively caps at level 19. It means missing out on level 9 spells altogether, and potentially level 8 spells as well. Worse, it means a radical shift downward of what spells, their number, and when you get them. It's like "gimping" your caster in favor of a "buff" machine that spends all of it's time buffing while the rest of your party has "cleaned up". As for MOTB, that campaign *needs* both wand and scrolls (aplenty) to overcome some nasty scripting.

Alternatively,

How badly do you want to excel in PvP? I can tell you right now that the build you have proposed will get it's @ss handed to it in that sort of environment, and not because it isn't a good level 30 build, but rather because it isn't the *best* build. (..you can test this out in Battle of the Builds.) IMO, the addition of divine grace isn't enough, you would also need a secondary source of save modifier like the Blackguard or Warlock has for it to be particularly effective.

Basically what this comes down to is that a character you play through the campaigns is generally NOT the character you would want for PvP (..and vice versus).

The most important thing that additional Paladin levels (beyond 2), provide is:

1. Improved Attack numbers.
2. Improved number of Attacks per round.

BOTH by virtue of being a High BAB class. Number 1 is critical in a PvP environment - and frankly, even with the additions, this build won't "cut it" (literally).

Divine Shield is just a "perk". The very best melee'ers will still hit your character with it (..and every other AC modifier you have). Even then, you are assuming you can "put it up" quickly enough, and have it last long enough to confer a significant benefit. What if the other player just waits, or hits you from a hiding, or gets to you fast enough to kill you outright, or knocks you down and finishes you off?

PvP is often a cruel world.

Again, don't take my word for this - test it out.




Answering your questions more directly:


The reason it's a mediocre caster build is that:

1. It's a Sorcerer, and they don't have the overall versatility of a Wizard with respect to spell diversity.

2. It's a Sorcerer, and a Wizard has more feats.

3. You'll end-up spending precious feats on melee-centric feats, instead of more important spell-casting feats (including attribute additions to Charisma).

4. You'll end-up spending precious spells on more melee oriented buffs - costing you better offensive/counter offensive spells and defensive spells.

5. As noted above, you are significantly delaying when (and how many) spells you receive for most of its build "life".

6. In an effort to improve AC by wearing armor (presumably), at most levels you would vastly limit your spell casting capability by being restricted to casting "Still" spells.




Divine Shield - The AC improvement can be excellent, but do you need it? ..And what are you giving up in return? (..i.e. see first direct answer.)




The reasons for each spell inclusion is listed in the link. In the case of Shades:

"Shades - (Epic 21'st level only.) This is the 3rd ninth level spell I'd choose - it's just plain useful. IF your Premonitions run-out you can use this (..and get enhanced spell saves). IF you need a summon as a distraction you can use this. IF you want a "trap-like" Delayed Fireball, then you can use this."

Yes - it adds versatility to a less than diverse spell caster. Moreover it adds versatility at a spell level grouping that is largely redundant by the use of Empowered Horrid Wiltings.

Incendiary Cloud and Acid Fog are also mentioned:

"Incendiary Cloud - Another good *lingering* area effect spell. Works well with hold-type spells and in conjunction with Acid Fog. It provides double the damage of Acid Fog, BUT fire damage is the most resisted elemental damage in the game, so it's both good and bad."

"Acid Fog - An excellent *lingering* area effect spell, particularly useful in conjunction with "Hold-type" spells like Evard's, "Holds", and most of the Bigby's - especially when used in conjunction with Incendiary Cloud. Good with Grease as well."




As for Tensers..

Yes, it does prohibit spell casting while in Tenser's form. However, as a caster you should rarely ever resort to melee.. and when you do - it would be best to have several of the advantages that Tenser's provides, advantages that an additional 2 Paladin levels will not provide (..by comparison).

Description:

"You become an engine of destruction, gaining a +1 attack bonus for every 2 caster levels, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, +5 to Fortitude saving throws, and an additional +1d6 Hit Points per caster level. In addition, your Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are each set to 20 for the duration of the spell."

[Scottg]

"For spell casting: That it won't be nearly as good as a purpose build spell-caster."

I still don't see why "it isn't nearly as good as a purpose built spell caster". I focus on caster spells(such as breaches, mantles, and assay resistance), I pump CHA to insane levels with compliment from attribute enhancing equipment, which helps spell DC, number of spells, saving throws, and divine shield AC. It's melee is going to be mediocre, or even suck, but who cares. I didn't take Pal and EK for the combat bonuses anyways. I took them for the feat saving combination + Paladin bonuses.

What more can you expect from a spell caster, who has nearly perfect spell casting, very good saving throws, and an AC that warriors would envy? (by the way, with CHA enhancing equiptment, Divine shield can well go over +13AC for 13 rounds, that will give an additional 65% of enemy miss chance- assuming that my AC falls within enemy AB range. Think about that with concealment + Mirror Image + Iron Body + Premonition. My caster will be VERY safe, and safety from weaponary damage is THE thing that troubles most casters the most)

Ok, let's just maintain our differences and discuss on the real topic, MY topic.

Are you going to comment on Listen/Spot/Search skills in PvP combat and my spell selection in brackets or not? (is the third level spell: Protection from Energy useless if I have spell mantle on?)

Anyone?

By the way, as for melee: once out of spells, my Eldrich Knight of Candle Keep will cast elemental shield (maybe along with death armor) on himself, withdraw his shield and wield his long sword in both hands...a desperate attempt to survive, but trust me or not, it's still going to make a difference.

Ah, we must have been typing at the same time.. I'll respond to this tomorrow. Time for me to get some rest.

This:

"It's melee is going to be mediocre, or even suck, but who cares. I didn't take Pal and EK for the combat bonuses anyways. I took them for the feat saving combination + Paladin bonuses."

I didn't know. The EK instantly says "spellsword" to me.

In fact if you are keen on having a really High AC then why are you using the EK class at all? For one feat? Again, the Palemaster will net you +6 at it's 8th level, and that would be in addition to your Paladin Divine Shield bonus.

But again, even forgetting for the moment actual game-play in the campaigns, why the need for a high AC? Cast Ethereal Jaunt, plan out your attack, and then make a first strike that's a KO. And what troubles most casters is not weapon damage per se, rather it's spell failure (..from a save or resistance), or simply not being able to locate/target your enemy.

[Scottg]

I went through a Sorcerer build, trying to max the more important areas of spell casting while still providing your Auto Still grouping of feats. The problem is, not only did I have to give up high AC, but I also had to give up spot/listen (which IMO is FAR worse.) and an even numbered Charisma base.

Anyway, here it is - and yes, it will require some alignment "juggling":

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=20270&version=1

This build at least makes a "stab" at providing high enough saves, which is a lot more important than high AC (for a caster) in a PvP environment.

Note that high saves don't have much importance in the campaigns, but spell resistance does. That at least allows me to load the save component at the end of the build to minimize multi-class penalties.


BTW, when I look over the build you proposed - it wouldn't work as you have it. Auto-Still requires a 27 in Spellcraft before you can start taking the feats.

[mbz]

I'm sick of spells being interrupted all the time in campaigns, and even the AI knows how to strike at the weak party members, hence the need for high AC.

From another perspective, your pale master build looks tempting in that it accomplishes the effects of iron body without taking the still feats. However, no shield, no armor, no divine shield, and you must rely on high DEX for AC though. And if you're caught flat footed...

Elendil | NWN2 Character Builder
I just posted my build.

and another one following your pale master build:
http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=20319&version=1

[Scottg]

I'm sick of spells being interrupted all the time in campaigns, and even the AI knows how to strike at the weak party members, hence the need for high AC.

I almost never have spells interrupted, well ..after about 4th level anyway. I do however max concentration. I also rarely put my caster in a position where they could take damage.

BTW, if you haven't tried the battle of the builds module - I highly recommend it. It can be entertaining all in itself, but is best used for working out the "kinks" in a build and practicing your attack/defense strategy.

Note that those *lingering* area effects spells can be dropped from the list, BUT if you do that then *campaigns* aren't as easy. Give and take..

I've also found that high stealth (either with HiPS or Invisibility to get into stealth mode while seen), is usually far more effective than high AC for both PvP and the Campaigns. The Palemaster class can leverage this (with Hide and Move Silently).

If you are interested in higher AC for PvP character, AND are willing to drop the Auto-Stills and the high saves..

..then consider a Sorcerer/ASoC/Palemaster/Monk (..just the one level for Wisdom AC modifiers). In combination with Dexterity mod.s and the Palemaster's AC bonuses - that could get you what you want. Substitute Ethereal Visage for Iron Body.

Also, if you are just going with one charisma/save modifier - always consider the Warlock class. It just requires one level and the Dark Ones Own Luck invocation. Perhaps Sorcerer/ASoC/Warlock/Monk, with the understanding that your fortitude or reflex save might not pass against another caster in a PvP environment.

BTW, your "undead" build is better for PvP.

[Scottg]

I consider this a work of art:

PvP and Campaign Sorcerer | NWN2 Character Builder

It balances just about everything well, and meets your 2 goals of campaign use with greater emphasis on PvP for a class-base that is *usually* considered inferior for PvP. The real "art-work" is juggling the attributes to get what's necessary for an excellent build while providing the additional skill points, and THEN interleaving the class structure to achieve those skills.

Negatives:

1. No Auto-Still.. and in fact no Still at all.
2. No Divine Shield.
3. No Armor and No Shield (..unless the armor is light has spell failure subtracted)
4. No plot-based Campaign related skills (..like Diplomacy).
5. No Epic Spells.
6. 6 level penalty with regard to spell resistance/penetration, (though easily overcome with MD/Spell Breach).
7. 4 level stunted progression for campaigns, but it's staggered with 2 up front from the Race and once at character level 9 and once more at character level 16. Note that this will likely dis-include level 9 spells for the OC, but level 8 spells are "safe".

Positives:
1. Immunity to Criticals at level 30 without the need for Iron Body/Auto-Still.
2. +6 bonus to AC overall, with +2 bonus early, and +4 bonus at 16th level.
3. Ability to wear light armor (..though again, needs to have it's spell-failure eliminated).
http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/sear ... ms.id=1958
4. Stealth capable throughout build life.
5. Excellent detection (Listen) throughout build life.
6. Excellent addition to saves at high levels (via Warlock Invocation and additional Charisma)
7. Excellent DC for spells.
8. Spell Resistance.


Modifications?

You *could* remove the ability to create scrolls (lvl 18) for an improved spell penetration vs. resistance with the "practiced spell-caster" feat, BUT IMO it isn't worth it and the ability to scribe scrolls is not only excellent, but overall imperative with MOTB.

[mbz]

First of all, thanks for all your suggestions. They were very insightful and creative.

Second, on your second to last post you said "Substitute Ethereal Visage for Iron Body." Ethereal Visage is a level 6 spell. The only good spells for level 8 are: sunburst, bigby's clenching fist (requires a save so it sucks), protection from spells, and greater shout(the damage is meager, and it's coned shape), I suppose one can also consider Powerword: petrify.

I'm not sure on Ethereal Visage: the description reads:"reduction 20/magic, prevents all spells of level 2 or lower from affecting you and provides concealment. " Obviously the damage reduction doesn't stack with premonition, and basically you can assmume all high level weapons are "magic". Spells of level 2 or lower is a joke, and how much concealment does it provide anyways? 50% is max, which is already provided by Displacement. Besides level 6 slots are full already...

On your new build, if you're THAT keen on improving saves, by sacrificing a caster level for a warlock level, why not take protection from spells from Level 8? It's 60 secs per caster level, which is about 28 mins, and will more than outlast the battle you're in. Besides, many spells ignore saves anyway, and spellmantles protect you just fine.

On the issue of stealth: Most (smart) mages will have blind sight on anyways. It's cheap, effective and lasts for 1min/r. Your casting invisibility would be rendered useless. If stealth is really THAT important, you should waste 2 feats and go for HiPS instead. But I'm not sure if you have enough skill points to back your steath abilities up. IMO, the level 7 spell Ethereal jaunt has made all stealth abilities obsolete, you may take your time, buff up, position yourself anywhere you want( you can't buff with stealth), and you don't have to fear for being listened/spotted. It saves you 2 skills...which is 4 INT points.

...oh and you forgot to fit in practiced spell caster...

[Scottg]

First of all, thanks for all your suggestions. They were very insightful and creative.

Second, on your second to last post you said "Substitute Ethereal Visage for Iron Body." Ethereal Visage is a level 6 spell. The only good spells for level 8 are: sunburst, bigby's clenching fist (requires a save so it sucks), protection from spells, and greater shout(the damage is meager, and it's coned shape), I suppose one can also consider Powerword: petrify.

I'm not sure on Ethereal Visage: the description reads:"reduction 20/magic, prevents all spells of level 2 or lower from affecting you and provides concealment. " Obviously the damage reduction doesn't stack with premonition, and basically you can assmume all high level weapons are "magic". Spells of level 2 or lower is a joke, and how much concealment does it provide anyways? 50% is max, which is already provided by Displacement. Besides level 6 slots are full already...

On your new build, if you're THAT keen on improving saves, by sacrificing a caster level for a warlock level, why not take protection from spells from Level 8? It's 60 secs per caster level, which is about 28 mins, and will more than outlast the battle you're in. Besides, many spells ignore saves anyway, and spellmantles protect you just fine.

On the issue of stealth: Most (smart) mages will have blind sight on anyways. It's cheap, effective and lasts for 1min/r. Your casting invisibility would be rendered useless. If stealth is really THAT important, you should waste 2 feats and go for HiPS instead. But I'm not sure if you have enough skill points to back your steath abilities up. IMO, the level 7 spell Ethereal jaunt has made all stealth abilities obsolete, you may take your time, buff up, position yourself anywhere you want( you can't buff with stealth), and you don't have to fear for being listened/spotted. It saves you 2 skills...which is 4 INT points.

...oh and you forgot to fit in practiced spell caster...

Your welcome!

Ethereal Visage should be 20/adamantine, NOT magical. That's 5 better than Iron Body which is 15/adamantine. It's only 25% concealment, and it doesn't stack with Displacement or Improved Invisiblility - BOO! Actually the immunity to level 1 & 2 spells can be useful - especially with empowered globes of Sound/Acid/etc. that the Storm of Zehir module includes. Don't underestimate this. (..note that Ethereal Visage's in-game description states magical, but as far as I know is incorrect. Look to the nwn2wikia, it's usually more accurate on things like this. On the other hand it isn't exactly a lot of time, even extended.. but it is usually enough.)


"The only good spells for level 8 are: sunburst, bigby's clenching fist (requires a save so it sucks), protection from spells, and greater shout(the damage is meager, and it's coned shape), I suppose one can also consider Powerword: petrify."

WTF?

Those aren't the good spells a lvl 8.

These are:

Horrid Wilting
Premonition
Iron Body (noted)
Polar Ray
Incendiary Cloud

I would agree though that lvl 6 is probably the best spell grouping of the lot (closely followed by 4).

Why not Protection from spells? Because its designed to protect against spell casters, and what do spell casters have available? MD and Spell Breach. ..Think about it. Think about it even with Spell Mantle.

Now think about NON-spell saves.

The stealth isn't designed for Mages (in PvP). You have Ethereal Jaunt + Improved Quickin (offensive) for that. Instead it's for Melee'ers with very high saves in that environment, that *might* have neglected some True-Seeing equipment. (EDIT: Apparently that doesn't work.) You can *also* use Ethereal Jaunt here.. BUT it's both a high spell "cost", and it's going to take a lot more spell castings to take down a melee'er (in comparison to a mage).

Stealth however is *mostly* for the campaigns, where it can be invaluable.

But it isn't worth the "hit" in all the feats it would require to go HiPS in either instance.

[mbz]

I guess my "undead build" is okay. I'm going to try it out.

I doubt the usefulness of Incendiary cloud over cloudkill. The latter does bascially the same thing: killing stationary targets over time, and the damage cannot be healed, while incendiary cloud only deals a meager 12 (fire) damage per round.

Polar ray requires a ranged touch attack to function, which sucks coz this "undead" build is poor on AB. It sucks even more since it's a single target spell.

Yes, you are right on protection from spells, pure waste of a level 8 spell choice. So what's left: sunburst and power word: petrify.

I heard a lot of mages use avasculate(what does this word mean anyways?) and PW: petrify to settle enenimies. With Vampire feast PW: petrify, I could do the same. Thing is, an empowered IGMS does arround 90 dam already. So PW: petrify would only be supperior to IGMS when there are a group of enemies below 100HP, and you only want to finish one of them.

I can also grab Mind blank, and dump lesser mind blank for bigby's interposing hand. sugguestions?

[Scottg]

I guess my "undead build" is okay. I'm going to try it out.

I doubt the usefulness of Incendiary cloud over cloudkill. The latter does bascially the same thing: killing stationary targets over time, and the damage cannot be healed, while incendiary cloud only deals a meager 12 (fire) damage per round.

Polar ray requires a ranged touch attack to function, which sucks coz this "undead" build is poor on AB. It sucks even more since it's a single target spell.

Yes, you are right on protection from spells, pure waste of a level 8 spell choice. So what's left: sunburst and power word: petrify.

I heard a lot of mages use avasculate(what does this word mean anyways?) and PW: petrify to settle enenimies. With Vampire feast PW: petrify, I could do the same. Thing is, an empowered IGMS does arround 90 dam already. So PW: petrify would only be supperior to IGMS when there are a group of enemies below 100HP, and you only want to finish one of them.

I can also grab Mind blank, and dump lesser mind blank for bigby's interposing hand. sugguestions?

Yeah, the "undead" build looks good.

Cloudkill is decent except for the fact that it has spell resistance and is a poison based spell. (..there are a number of opponents with immunity to poison.) It also has a fortitude save for half damage on 6 HD opponents. The best thing about it is that it's in the 5th level spell grouping, which is one of the worst. I'd select Greater Fireburst over it any day.

Incendiary Could is a REFLEX save, and then only for half damage. Don't get me wrong though, IF there is a spell you can do without (from the better spells at this level), it surely is Incendiary Cloud.

Polar Ray is *fantastic*. There is no save, only spell resistance. The damage is high enough so that even if your opponent has on a +20 or +30 Ice resistance, that this spell will still do some significant damage. Finally, it's a RANGED TOUCH ATTACK. Chances are you will enhance your Dexterity to the max for the AC bonus - and that improves your attack number. Further, ranged touch attacks disregard an opponents: armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses (..magical bonuses based on those categories as well). For the most part it's what Disintegrate should be. Note that it can also be empowered by an ASoC, and it can Critical.

Avasculate is the new "harm". Basically no save or spell resistance and cut's your enemies health in half. A must have, particularly against high hit-point high save opponents. The only problem is that it's a "Death" spell, and so a Death Ward will stop it. It's also a ranged touch attack, but again - that shouldn't be a problem. Avasculate presumably means "cutting off blood-flow".

I personally think Petrify is useless. If you can get an opponent down to 101 hitpoints, then you can finish them off with a damage spell. You can't even quick-cast the spell. ..*Maybe* useful in a multi-party PvP melee.

You only have 3 level 8 spells to choose:

For a PvP build it's a no-brainer IMO:
Horrid Wilting
Premonition (..even with ethereal visage.)
Polar Ray

Lesser Mind Blank is in the worst spell level, so I'd stick with it.

[mbz]

Yeah, the "undead" build looks good.

Cloudkill is decent except for the fact that it has spell resistance and is a poison based spell. (..there are a number of opponents with immunity to poison.) It also has a fortitude save for half damage on 6 HD opponents. The best thing about it is that it's in the 5th level spell grouping, which is one of the worst. I'd select Greater Fireburst over it any day.

Polar Ray is *fantastic*. There is no save, only spell resistance. The damage is high enough so that even if your opponent has on a +20 or +30 Ice resistance, that this spell will still do some significant damage. Finally, it's a RANGED TOUCH ATTACK. Chances are you will enhance your Dexterity to the max for the AC bonus - and that improves your attack number. Further, ranged touch attacks disregard an opponents: armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses (..magical bonuses based on those categories as well). For the most part it's what Disintegrate should be. Note that it can also be empowered by an ASoC, and it can Critical.

Greater fireburst gives only 23 more damage on average than Fireburst...and two fire spells for level 5?...

Polar ray: I was worried about rogues with high DEX and good dodge bonuses. but they are also the ones with Improved Evasion too. So what the heck. I still get to roll the d20 right?

Now that I'm not going melee, I can scrap Haste at Level 3 and pick up vampiric touch. The wikia page didn't mention that I have to make a touch attack tho.

thanks

[Scottg]

Greater fireburst gives only 23 more damage on average than Fireburst...and two fire spells for level 5?...

Polar ray: I was worried about rogues with high DEX and good dodge bonuses. but they are also the ones with Improved Evasion too. So what the heck. I still get to roll the d20 right?

Now that I'm not going melee, I can scrap Haste at Level 3 and pick up vampiric touch. The wikia page didn't mention that I have to make a touch attack tho.

thanks

Fireburst caps 5d8, Greater is 3 times that. That's 10d8 more, or about 40 additional damage on average. Then empower it. Also it's size is colossal. Alternativly look to Cacauphonic Burst, but it's more along the lines of a superior Fireball. Different uses for each however. Greater Fireburst will never hurt you, and *usually* is used to kill those attacking you - like summons or legions of melee'ers. Reflex save for half on both. At this level I'd look to Lesser Spell Mantle, Lesser Mindblank (for PvP only), either Greater Fireburst or Caucoponic Blast, and Bigby's Interposing Hand (..which is a bit of a sleeper spell for *really* tough situations). IF you can grab a mental immunity via equipment then I'd ditch Lesser Mindblank and put on the alternative (Greater Fireburst/Cacauphonic Blast) or Cloudkill.

Yup, it's still a d20 roll, and sure Rogues are going to be a problem with it, but you have other resources. :mischief:

1d20 + Base Attack + Dex. Modifier *vs.* 10 + Dex. Modifier + Dodge Bonus + Deflection + Size Modifier.

Base + Dex. Mod. will be over 20 for "undead" build at lvl 30. Then:

Note that you can increase your ranged attack numbers by having in hand at the time you cast the spell a magical dart (+ whatever).

Improved Evasion doesn't mean squat here, and I don't think such an attack can be "parried". The only "extra" beyond the calculation is Epic Dodge. THAT will stop this spell. Of course the previously mentioned High Spell Resistance will as well. Immunity to Cold will effectively, and Cold resistance will just lessen the damage.

NO, Vampiric Touch. That's a MELEE TOUCH ATTACK.. and so it needs Strength as a modifier bonus. Besides, there are plenty of other good spells in this list, and at least one is * necessary*: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance. Without it your pretty much nerf'ed against high level Rogues, and you might still be even with it. Then look to Improved Mage Armor & potentially Spiderskin. (..though if you have equipment with +6 AC or +5 Natural Armor, then don't worry about those spells.) Finally look at Displacement (if you don't go for Improved Invisibility) or Fire Arrow.

This is the kind of build that would be a nightmare for a Sorcerer:

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=5645&version=1

Note the Hide and Move Silently values, which of course would be increased further with equipment and Camouflage.

[mbz]

By saying "fireburst", I really meant firebrand. One is 15d6, and one is 15d8. Firebrand never hurts yourself as well.

Yea, you're right, I forgot Clairaudience/Clairvoyance. So my level 3 spells would be: flame arrow, C/C, displacement, and Improved mage Armor (just in case I spawn in a low magic fighting pit)
Scintillating Sphere is good but a bit weak. This actually was my first candidate, until you spoke of the armor issue.
Protection from energy is too weak.
Too bad I can't use vampiric touch (as a pre-battle buff) on my own minions (or myself) as in the old BG or NWN games.
Forget spiderskin, as I shall have Shadow shield anyways.

Your assassin archer looks good, but I doubt it can stand against a well prepared arcane spell caster. I cast Ethereal jaunt, and buff up. I have listening checks 5 times per round at: 33+1(lady's man)+3(bat)+10(C/C)+(+1~3)WIS modifier= 48~50. Good luck hiding. Camouflage will not help Move silently.

As for my AC (in a high magic setting): 10 base, 10 Armor, 8 deflection, 5 natural, 7 shield (shield of magi), 6 PM, 7 DEX (uncanny dodge protected) and 13 divine shield=66. + an additional 10 from interposing hand. If you don't use true strike there is no way you can hit me (except on a 20 of course). On top of that I have concealment, premonition, and mirror image...and all the nasty spells. The game is so unfair...haha. If true strike could be persisted, that would really make a difference.

"Improved Evasion doesn't mean squat here" - are you sure? b/c from the description: "Whenever a Reflex save is allowed for half damage, characters with this feat instead take no damage if they succeed at the save. Even if they fail the save, they take only half damage. " Polar ray fits in.

I