Strange creatures

Der-draigen · Post by **Der-draigen** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:10 am

I apologize if this idea has already been posted; I haven't read the whole thread

Let me put it this way: In our present day, species are becoming extinct all the time. Every day, in fact, a number of species go extinct and many more become endangered. Who are we to say that these "mythical" creatures, such as dragons, unicorns, etc. etc., did not actually exist at one point in time and became extinct for one reason or other (more than likely from swaggering knights who had nothing better to do than hunt innocent giants when there wasn't a war on

)??

Personally, I think that for us "advanced" modern folks to say that creatures of lore never existed, simply because we've never seen them; and because we want to feel superior to our ancestors by saying they were ignorant to believe in such rubbish when we, with our rational minds and super-sensational science would never be so foolish -- well, I think that attitude is really arrogant.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:53 am

@Fable: Nice input there!

Re: Roman/Greek Mythos - Indeed! You sounded just like my prof in comparative lit(?) when you mentioned about the the plays being a relatively recent occurence.

As to India's religious epic, it's Hindu belief, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Hindus have a "holy trinity" of some sort: Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna?

If I'm not mistaken even Hinduism has contributed to some of Thai Buddhism as I saw the Ramayana(?) depicted in some of the temples here. Thai Buddhism as well as Hinduism, is rich in fantastic creatures/beings, a number of them crosses between two (or even 3?) animals.

Which reminds me, there was this picture of a "naga" caught here by some US(?) service men during the Vietnam war. It showed IIRC, around 20-30 men carrying this long snake-like fish whose head is very much like a dragon/naga.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:55 am

@Der-draigen, there are fossil remains of many extinct creatures that vanished long ago. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that if unicorns, dragons, gorgons, or chimera ever existed, some similar remains would have been located?

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 9:32 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn
The earliest example of this I can recall is figuring out the "car" most likely comes from the word "caravan." While it's generally simple things, they're things most people don't take the time to think about.
[/color] [/b]

Car: Archaic. A chariot, carriage, or cart. From the Middle English, carre.

Caravan is from the italian carovana.

Admitedly both words may have a common latin root, but I'm not familiar with it.

Sorry for the nitpicking.

Shadow Sandrock · Post by **Shadow Sandrock** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 9:35 am

Heck, we still got our banshee... I believe in our Banshee as the best fictional creature of all...

...even though she is a wraith, she's still our banshee!

*transforms into Sailor Banshee* Ai wa seijino seeraa fuku bishoujo senshi Sailor Banshee! Ireland ni kawatte, oshioki yo! *everybody runs*

Note: I'm not sure if that is an exact translation, if you know what it is do please correct me I love learning.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 10:06 am

Re: Strange Animals. I have actually met people who believed in the existence of El Chupacabras – the Goat Sucker monster that mutilates livestock when it can’t pester unwary humans. This, and other such creatures serve as cautionary tales and boogie monsters for frightening children into behaving. Just as the Hopi say that Ogre Katchinas will take away bad little girls and boys during the Bean Dance ceremony, its all about control. But they are also some very fun stories. I enjoyed an evening listening to Skinwalker tales spun by a Ute Elder from the Four-Corners region of Colorado, and then spent a very nervous night alone in my tent.

Re: Greek and Roman Deities with Human Foibles. Again, I would say its all about cautionary tales and control. Telling tales of how the gods react emotionally to certain situations and the ensuing chaos sends the message that gods and humans are similar except that the gods have heroes and lightening bolts lying around to get them out of trouble, and humans don’t. On the other hand, stories that show the gods to be removed and superior become metaphors for how society should be structured. If the gods are organized patrifocally and defer to Zeus as the ruler, you can be sure that the concurrent society of humans is organized the same way. If the message of the Mahabharata is that Krishna must be obeyed at all costs, you can be sure that the rulers of the human state, community, and even the family want to be similarly obeyed.

Re: Fossil Evidence for Extinct Strange Animals. Preservation is the key here. Under the best circumstances, a dead animal will be covered with sediment soon after death, and its bones will be preserved for scientists to find years later. The problem with unicorns, dragons, gorgons, or chimera, is that they may not die in a normal manner: i.e. unicorns turn to pixie dust upon death, dragons and chimera burst into flames, and gorgons turn to sand. Not much left for the scientists to find.

However, I have been known to toy with the idea that Bigfoot and Sasquatch are simply undiscovered descendants of the robust Australopithecines that roamed Africa and Asia about 5 million years ago! Never mind that there is no fossil evidence to support this idea....

Der-draigen · Post by **Der-draigen** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 10:27 am

Originally posted by fable
@Der-draigen, there are fossil remains of many extinct creatures that vanished long ago. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that if unicorns, dragons, gorgons, or chimera ever existed, some similar remains would have been located?

And they are discovering fossils of new species all the time. There's still a lot of undiscovered stuff in this world.

I just don't think people ever simply made things up. Certainly not across the cultural and societal boundaries you find with "folkloric" creatures. Take the dragon, for example. The dragon exists in so many diverse cultures throughout the world, I just don't buy that people in all those different places had the same idea. Know what I mean?

There's more proof of my earlier statement that modern humanity has educated itself into arrogance. The idea is, we don't make things up now, but "way back then" they did. That gives us a superior feeling and shows how much smarter we are these days

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 11:17 am

Originally posted by Der-draigen

I just don't think people ever simply made things up. Certainly not across the cultural and societal boundaries you find with "folkloric" creatures. Take the dragon, for example. The dragon exists in so many diverse cultures throughout the world, I just don't buy that people in all those different places had the same idea. Know what I mean?

And since we learned how to shapechange, let me tell you, life became a LOT easier. No more of those silly tin covered Knights riding up trying to kill us for eating maidens and other crimes against humanity. *snort* I tell you, those maidens during the year of crabs babbling about touching us to 'make themselves pure' were the worst! No matter how many times you told them ‘it's unicorns you delusional twits!’, they just wouldn’t go away. No, there they remained messing up the karma of the place, trying to tie themselves to polls as protest, as if that would make a dragon give in! I know most of us ate them just so we wouldn’t hear any more bad poetry and whining. Speaking of, I don’t really recommend maiden unless it’s covered in a heavy cream sauce, it's not THAT much like chicken…

But..anyway…er…

I mean, what are you talking about Der?! Clearly there never were dragons, that’s just a myth created by lesser-advanced cultures.

(In other words, I think Der has a point, who’s to say what wasn’t real?)

cheesemage · Post by **cheesemage** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 11:25 am

Arent I strange enough?

Well mythical animals may very so it seem. Dragons for example how the heck could they think of that you ask, well there could have been some alot of cases of spontaneous combustion in england and europe at the time. Giant monsters in lakes are just an example of a human triat where humans see things in patterns to get past camoflouge. Vampires could have aucctually exsistedas a secret cult that preyed upon people killed them and drink their blood. Werewolfs startted in france due to sometimes when their crops of wheat were flooded and i think barley not completey sure what it was grew ovr the wheat and when consumed caused illusions and some people thought they were werewolves and since the entire village was consuming the same bread everyone thought they had seen it too. I think thats the smae deal with witches. Bigfoot could be an escaped ape of some sort or just a group of nomads who wear animal furs that never discovered society. Things like animals with apendages from other animals, to quote the simpsons " the rare two headed hound with only one head". The el chupacabra could simply be well a giant hairless monkey i doubt it though. Ancient gods always were thought to come from the sky the ancient mesopotamians made giant temples the ziggurats and they thought they gods would come down and sleep on them. Almost all cultures have something like this. This can be interpreted in many diffrent ways, such as aliens, more proof behind christanity, or like SS put fallen angels. So i shall finish this with one quote. "Perception equals reality"

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 11:33 am

Oh sure Viv, there you go talking about how shapechanging made things so easier. Come on now, that frail frame is just a mirage of the majesty you once were and you know it. Tell me you wouldn't want to go back to the days or roasting and chomping on those chivalric tin cans. And the maidens...oh, the maidens. Cream sauce, surely you jest. A little cumin and they're ripe for eating. Or those days of snorting curry with the big sneeze, wow, roast em and eat em right where they stand. Well, I for one, refused to play those games and sought a higher power. When your time here is done, come seek me on the seventh plane of heaven. G'night.

Bahamut

Yes der, you do have a point, although I do not subscribe to it. Perhaps that lands me in the same fallacy as so many. cheers.

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 11:37 am

Vampires could have actually existed???

Cheesemage,

come on over for dinner sometime. that's just the attitude we're looking for. Oh, the places you'll go (yes, we creatures of the night have a place in heart (yea, right) for Dr. Suess).

What about scuzzlebutt? He's got Patrick Duffy for a leg and lives outside of South Park. And he's real.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 12:01 pm

[Waverly is taking his leave of this topic before he comments on devouring maidens

]

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 12:10 pm

In answer to the original question of this thread, yes, indeed, Weasel DOES in fact exist.

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 12:33 pm

Hmmm...

New Jersey has its own strange creatures, the Jersey Devil, Big Red Eye (our Yeti), the Hoboken Monkey Man, to name a few. If you want to have a lot of fun, visit Weird New Jersey

Personally, I reject the modern view of mythology--that it was people's way of explaining phenomena they did not understand. I believe that this view has an agenda of dismissing all other religions, especially polytheistic ones, as primitive or childlike. I was actually taught in school that religion *evolved* from polytheism with animal worship (as in the Egyptian gods) to polytheism with human gods (as in Greco-Roman gods) to monotheism. Obviously, in this paradigm, monotheism is superior. This paradigm ran into trouble when trying to deal with a complex modern polytheistic religion such as Hinduism.

I've just been reading a book on Nordic mythology, and what has struck me the most about it is that the Nordic gods suffer and can die. That the actions of the race of Giants and the race of men affect the gods. There's a sort of interconnectedness between the gods and man that I find lacking in modern religion. I've found the same thing in Mayan and Aztec religion (I call it *religion*, because Mayans are still around today, and to them it is not *mythology*, it is their *religion*). The Maya believe that everyone has a double. Wherever you walk, your double is walking as well in Xibalba (the underworld)--your feet are connected. Therefore, what you do affects your double and the gods of Xibalba. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based on Sun worship, with a God up in the sky, out *there* somewhere. People pray, hoping that their god listens, but no one in western religion seems to believe that their own actions can affect god, or even harm or kill god. (That's a little simplistic, but I'm trying to make a point.)

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:32 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
Stories of things like Diaspora of the Jewish people, and the slaying of Goliath. These are the stories that much of the myth and fantasy we have are the roots off.

I don't remember what "diaspora" refers to, but as to the slaying of Goliath, this gets back to something I mentioned earlier. The Jews were/are a relatively short people compared to other peoples and the "giants" of that time, including Goliath, were most likely no more than 8 or 9 feet tall. I can't remember where I read this at though and I'm, at the moment, too lazy to try to find it.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:43 pm

Re: @Fable: Nice input there!

Originally posted by Maharlika
As to India's religious epic, it's Hindu belief, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Hindus have a "holy trinity" of some sort: Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna?

If I'm not mistaken even Hinduism has contributed to some of Thai Buddhism as I saw the Ramayana(?) depicted in some of the temples here. Thai Buddhism as well as Hinduism, is rich in fantastic creatures/beings, a number of them crosses between two (or even 3?) animals.

Hinduism has thousands of gods, but more accurately, they have multiple aspects of one god. The most important, or most commonly worshipped, of these gods being Shiva, Genesha, and...uh...I forgot the other. Buddhism stims from Hinduism. Prince Siddhartha Gautama, also known as The Buddha(or Enlightened One) was born a Hindu in the Warrior Caste. He was isolated on his father's land for most of his life. In his early twenties when finally let out, he saw the "Four Passing Sights:" an old man, a diseased man, a dead man(as a funeral went by), and an ascetic. Because of this, he decided to, instead of being a warrior, go on a spiritual quest which lasted about 6 years. At the end of this, he reached "enlightenment" and became the Buddha. As far as gods go, Siddhartha Gautama would probably be considered an agnostic. He believed that it didn't matter whether or not there were gods because he saw no reason why they would give a damn about humanity. Some sects of Buddhism believe there were also other Buddhas and so the exact beliefs may vary some from Buddhist to Buddhist.

If any of my information is incorrect, blame my World Religions professor.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 5:16 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

I don't remember what "diaspora" refers to, but as to the slaying of Goliath, this gets back to something I mentioned earlier. The Jews were/are a relatively short people compared to other peoples and the "giants" of that time, including Goliath, were most likely no more than 8 or 9 feet tall. I can't remember where I read this at though and I'm, at the moment, too lazy to try to find it.

Actually, when I mention the diaspora, I don't actually mean the jewish peoples dispersion (there ya go SS) I'm refering more to the ten plagues and such.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:14 pm

Originally posted by Der-draigen
Take the dragon, for example. The dragon exists in so many diverse cultures throughout the world, I just don't buy that people in all those different places had the same idea.

But the concept of dragon looks quite different in different cultures, the Chinese dragon is quite different from the European both in behaviour and looks.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:29 pm

I was abducted by a family of Sasquatch!

Locke Da'averan · Post by **Locke Da'averan** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:41 pm

my two cents no flame...

i don't think gods ever existed, they're just something the people in power created to have the people something to worship and have faith, plus they were able to say stuff like: "god spoke to me last night, he/she said, you must raise taxes, kill the unfaithful servants and have your way with all the young and attractive women in your kingdom

(Egypt 6000 years ago)

as for the creatures, the stories about dragons in europe are from middle age right? so maybe the caravans from china brought the legend of the dragon to europe, and the europeans just molded it to fit better in every nations legends(just a wild goose chase)

and in the end: blaa