Seduction and Lacroix. Not necessarily combined.

[Celacena]

At least we have narrowed down the discussion from vampire eroticism in general to V:TM and the scope for disagreement is therefore reduced.

If we restrict ourselves to VTM, which I admit I wasn't, as I was putting VTM in the context of vampiric literature/gaming/folklore, then your arguments about sexuality may fail, despite being well-contructed. I say this because you have restricted the discussion to VTM but then used the (White Wolf?) PnP system upon which it is based as evidence. Whilst I can accept that the 'rules' of an imported system made into a game are crucial, that does not mean that all the philosphy has necessarily been imported - quite often some brutal philosophy in literature is toned-down for a game, film or television adaptation.

VTM is a computer game based upon a PnP system, but I would argue that it is an 'adaption' and through being an adaption it is open to question that the role of sex is defined by the PnP game and it's supporting literature.

for the PC, the broadly "sexual" encounters in the game include Jeanette, VV, blood-dolls, and Heather (plus Romero and Fat Larry). Some characters admittedly do seem asexual (LaX), but some interactions do have a sexual component. I don't believe that it is the case that only a Malkavian would countenance sex. VV is a Toreador and she seems up for it.

taken to an extreme, IMO the most 'dysfunctional' vamps are Pisha, Brother Vic & Friends, Adrian and Ash. their abnormality does not lie in their sexuality, but in their attitude to blood and kine.

So in my view - this adaption of VTM has some vamps as sexual beings, even if the most fundamental need is for blood.

(BTW - Poppy Z Brite has collated books of short-stories under titles such as "Love in Vein" which explore vampire sexuality and there is also the chick-lit series of "Dead and..." again in which vampires are particularly sexual. that series perhaps should be called "Sex and the City...of the Dead")

[pennypincher]

As if sex in the city wasn't bad enough... Urk...

Alright, so you want to argue that sexuality in the PC game exist? How about this...

There are only two encounters in which any sexual activity actually takes place after your death. Janette, who clearly decalres "I'm so bored" at the end and is clinicaly insane, and if your female character has sex with Romero. All other sexualy suggestive behaviour either ends in people getting you to do something for them, you getting people to do something for you, or blood drinking. Even with the Romero sex scene, the dialog suggests it would be entierly for his benifit... So I would say there is MUCH more evidence pointing towards the facts that are covered clearly in the PnP game then anyones longging for kinky corpse lovin.

Yes, I'm sure there are more then one modern TV shower and book that have vampires getting down and dirty constantly, but all the more traditional stories from which vampires originated had sexuality, but no sex. Even the more recent, but still considered "Traditional"" book by that Irish fellow called "Dracula" had vampires being sexualy suggestive... And then having no interest in the actual Sex part itself at all, constantly using sex to get close to their victims. EVerything you've put forward is simple "I think it could be"... The books, games and legended are on this side of the fence. It's just the way the legends are man, and the games reflect it. You're gonna have to live with it I'm sorry... Frankly I think more then enough has been said about the topic, seeing as conversations such as this have been moved from this board before if I remember. You post all the theorys you want, I'm gonna let it rest. Feel free to keep on keeping on untill Fable gets off coffee break and notices what we are talking about.

*Pours Fable another mug'a Joe*

[Celacena]

Fear of the Fabulous

I think the game is 18 rated and that is because of the adult themes - if we cannot discuss the sexuality or otherwise of the game characters, that makes a mockery of this being a "forum" - it is not simply a place to discuss bugs, fixes, cheats and problems - the game as a whole is up for discussion.
furthermore, we have not descended to graphic detail, but discussed in an adult manner sometimes conflicting opinions as to whether the state of vampirism entirely removes a drive for sexual activity as well as replacing all physiological needs with the need for blood.

vampire physiology

in the game - the PC doesn't even need to breathe and I find that odd.
a vamp needs to consume blood - OK, but even if the stomach adapted to only have that as the only acceptable nutrient, it is unworkable to say that vampires cannot eat or drink or need to breathe.
for creatures to learn and have memory, changes occur in the brain at a neural-pathway level. if the whole of a vamp was 'dead' there would be no possibility of conscious mind and no capacity for memory or the improvement of skills. a brain-dead vampire would be an immobile creature with only an autonomic nervous response.
vampires need a theoretical physiology unless vamps are seen as purely supernatural creatures - which is NOT the fundamental position of the game - they are a state of post-humanity - they have a disease or acquire a different state, but they are humans who have changed into something beyond their normal humanity. they need blood, they can develop powers and they heal. they do not run away from water, or religious symbols and it is only the nature of weapons/vampriric powers that does them harm.
the heart of a vampire should beat for it to have significance beyond the symbolic. Anne Rice describes a changing of the body over a period of days in her books, but in VTM there is no such change described - the PC goes from human to vamp once embraced. the embrace starts the change of needs and development of potential, but it does not IMO, take away the psychological needs, of which sexual satisfaction can be one.
vampires are not immortal - they have their death-clock stopped, but can still die of trauma - in those circumstances, the vampires in the game are not 'undead' in the sense of an ambulatory dead thing and as such, can retain as much of their humanity and their human needs as is consistent with the potential for their 'undying' existence.
My vamps almost never frenzy BTW and whilst acknowledging the ephemeral lives of true humans, they behave in a way that is minimal-harm selfish to others. (that is similar with the main character in Rice's book "Interview with the Vampire")

In those circumstances I don't think that sexuality is excluded or abnormal.

PS
I agree that in folk-tales the vampire is not necessarily seen as the consciously erotic creature that literature and the media have emphasised during the last 50 years. still, the psychological potential has always been there.

[Jhereg]

Feel free to keep on keeping on untill Fable gets off coffee break and notices what we are talking about.

Actually, pennypincher, if anybody would ultimately be responsible for this thread being moved or closed it would be you. You are the one who is constantly referring to the PNP game and demanding that VTMB must conform to the rules of that game (at great length, I might add). The rest of us are discussing the game characters within the context of VTMB itself. Any number of PNP purists have noted that VTMB doesn't strictly obey the PNP milieu. As noted, the discussion has been adult, above-board, rational, and in context - except for the PNP references.

I'm just making an observation that is contrary to your suggestion that a discussion about sex within the context of the game world would cause any moderator to close or move this thread. I've seen more threads removed because they wandered too far into the PNP world than because discussions of a sexual nature were occurring.

If you do not agree with the opinions in this thread, you are entirely welcome to express your own, of course. Just don't threaten us with the Big Bad Moderator because we fail to capitulate to your personal viewpoint. Fable is moderating this forum nearly every time I've been in it (if not all). I'm rather inclined to believe that, in Fable's (and the other Moderators) silence, we have tacit agreement that the thread is still on-topic and within the forum rules. I've never known Fable to be asleep at the switch

Within the game, Jeanette has sex - with both Kindred and Kine. Certainly, she is Malk and that may be a contributing factor. In some circumnstances, apparrently she will have sex with your character - male or female. The ghoul Romero doesn't seem to think that vampires are off-limits, and while perhaps a bit gun-happy, he seems perfectly rational to me, and he's not some ignorant Kine - he is familiar with the Vampire world, and presumably conversant with the rules thereof. In any case, I have yet to see or hear of your character (either sex) losing blood points as a consequence of their erotic indiscretions. As your character is totally in the dark about any rules, then the character's willingness to indulge these activities suggests that in this game, the characters do not find the idea of sex as fundamentally repugnant or difficult as you have suggested they must. These four things indicate to me that within this game world, perhaps the rules set forth by White Wolf are not being strictly adhered to.

[fable]

Just for the record, I do read all the posts in the forums I moderate, and I read several times daily. Just in case anyone wonders. I've felt that the comments thus far in this thread have skated close to the edge of occasion, but never enough to warrant closing it; after all, it was pretty well stated, people stayed civil, and the information reported was, by and large, correct. That said, I would appreciate it if we could keep the focus on this game, and not on books, or folk legends, or tabletop games.

[Anaximander]

[quote="fable]That said"]

Based solely on what we see in this video game, the question of whether vampires can have and enjoy sex doesn't really have a clear answer.

Jeanette certainly seems to like it - until it's over. Then she's bored again. This could be attributed to her personality. She's a pretty wild girl. I'm sure it takes quite a bit to keep her happy and entertained. The title to a cherry red porche, for example.....

Romero is more than willing to sleep with a female PC. Just how willing the PC is depends on the dialogue options you choose. It's left to the player to determine if their vampire would do something like this.

VV's barely worth mentioning in a discussion about vampires and sexuality. She's a smooth talker, but in the end all she really gives you is a signed poster of herself (could she be any more vain?). My opinion is that the whole point of your experience with VV is to demonstrate the manipulative nature of vampires as a whole and Toreador in particular. She toys with your feelings to get what she wants, and gives nothing of any real value in return. If you ask her what there is to do in Hollywood, she ends her response with "...and me, of course." This seems to suggest that she is open to the idea of a tryst, but nothing ever comes of it.

Feeding on Heather and the blood dolls is full of sensuality, but you don't get to do anything really sexual with them either.

The rules laid out in the PnP game can explain all of this away. If we ignore that and instead examine only what we see in this video game, then I think it's up to individual players to decide whether their vampires are sexual beings or not.

[Jhereg]

Based solely on what we see in this video game, the question of whether vampires can have and enjoy sex doesn't really have a clear answer.

Which I take to be precisely the point - the situation is ambiguous.

Jeanette certainly seems to like it - until it's over. Then she's bored again. This could be attributed to her personality. She's a pretty wild girl. I'm sure it takes quite a bit to keep her happy and entertained. The title to a cherry red porche, for example.....

Inasmuch as she seems to do it to spite her alter-ego, I would presume that after the fact she would be bored. She's a female vampire in love with being in lust. Lust sated? Next target, please.

Romero is more than willing to sleep with a female PC. Just how willing the PC is depends on the dialogue options you choose. It's left to the player to determine if their vampire would do something like this.

Precisely. Your character is, however, allowed the choice.

VV's barely worth mentioning in a discussion about vampires and sexuality. She's a smooth talker, but in the end all she really gives you is a signed poster of herself (could she be any more vain?). My opinion is that the whole point of your experience with VV is to demonstrate the manipulative nature of vampires as a whole and Toreador in particular. She toys with your feelings to get what she wants, and gives nothing of any real value in return. If you ask her what there is to do in Hollywood, she ends her response with "...and me, of course." This seems to suggest that she is open to the idea of a tryst, but nothing ever comes of it.

The Nosferatu are disfigured because of their vanity (in the main, at least). Witness Imalia, who is all about how she would rule if she hadn't been embraced, and wants revenge against a person who has never done anything to her personally, or Gorgeous Gary Golden (aka Gary) who is so full of himself that he can't imagine you wouldn't recognise his disfigured Nos body. Mitnick is a different case. He became a threat.

The Toreador are selected for their, for lack of a better term, 'modesty'. Beautiful, but modest. Hence, they are allowed to retain their beauty in their unlife, and enjoy it as they would have had they been allowed to live. I think VV's poetry speaks for itself. You don't get the poster because of her vanity. She gives it to you as a gift of Love, much as you might give a love-poem to your lover for no other reason than you needed him/her to have it. Sex and Love do not necessarily collide.[/QUOTE]

Feeding on Heather and the blood dolls is full of sensuality, but you don't get to do anything really sexual with them either.

Precisely because there is nothing sexual about it. In the Hollowbrook, you see the blinded people? They're cattle. They're kept blinded and helpless for no better reason than to be a convenient source of food. They're a grocery store. The blood dolls and your ghoul (should you choose to play them that way) are the same. A source of food. Personally, I've never fed off Heather, but I know the option is there. I simply choose not to take it. For the blood dolls, you are different from the sabbat in that you allow them to live a life outside your breakfast. Rather like getting sustenance from a cow by milking it, instead of butchering it.

The rules laid out in the PnP game can explain all of this away. If we ignore that and instead examine only what we see in this video game, then I think it's up to individual players to decide whether their vampires are sexual beings or not.

BINGO. You have seen into the truth of the matter.

[Celacena]

I feel a consensus has just about been reached, which may be a good time to stop...

in this game, the vampire PC is permitted to be a sexual being, but is under no forceful imperative.

(as fo V V - I agree that she's a romantic, even if a manipulative one)