Seduction and Lacroix. Not necessarily combined.

Eadaii · Post by **Eadaii** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:18 pm

1. Do any of you wish that there had been more chances to use seduction? I know we got to use it on minor characters, and could have a humorous "relationship" with Chunk, but was I the only one dissappointed that that was basically where our choices ended? The best you got was Jeanette, VV, Chunk, and Romero. I wish there had been the option to seduce some of the more important characters, like Strauss, and Lacroix, and maybe even Nines or Beckett. They wouldn't have to go along with it, of course, but the option would've been nice. (And the results, in some cases, pretty funny.)

2. *spoilers*
Do any of you wish we could have sided with Lacroix and gotten a better ending? An oppurtunity to keep him as prince of the city, working with him? I don't know, I liked Lacroix. He was ambitious and driven, and pretty sneaky too, which, pleasant or not, makes for a good leader.

Coruel · Post by **Coruel** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:39 pm

Well in fact there are some other places for seduction (though far less as for persuasion); admittedly quite minor charactes, but often crucial to avoid fights or as alternative solutions.
- the guard at the beach place & the head of the gang there.
- Tommy Flayton if your character is male
- The Tong lieutenant downstairs in the club
- The girl in the Giovanni place (not Mira, the other one)

But yes none of the really main characters (like Lacroix, Nines, Ming-Xao, Beckett, or Isaac). It might have even be fun if it just gave you some more dialogue variations, if not game variations...

Lunaida · Post by **Lunaida** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:03 am

Eadaii wrote:1. Do any of you wish that there had been more chances to use seduction? I know we got to use it on minor characters, and could have a humorous "relationship" with Chunk, but was I the only one dissappointed that that was basically where our choices ended? The best you got was Jeanette, VV, Chunk, and Romero. I wish there had been the option to seduce some of the more important characters, like Strauss, and Lacroix, and maybe even Nines or Beckett. They wouldn't have to go along with it, of course, but the option would've been nice. (And the results, in some cases, pretty funny.)

2. *spoilers*
Do any of you wish we could have sided with Lacroix and gotten a better ending? An oppurtunity to keep him as prince of the city, working with him? I don't know, I liked Lacroix. He was ambitious and driven, and pretty sneaky too, which, pleasant or not, makes for a good leader.

I completely agree with you on your both suggestions

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:18 am

Don't mean to bump old threads but I figure it's better than making a new one. - so are you telling me there's no seduction dialogues with La Croix? I was just starting a Ventrue Female character to do just that (It's really the only purpose I made her) if there isn't I might as well make a Male then, because I usually don't play women, unless it's to see some kind of alternate play-style or somesuch.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:56 am

...and I thought people played "Tomb Raider" because there was this cute chick with a couple of warheads strapped to her chest and really short shorts.

In VtM, you can get to see the PC slink around. personally, I'd have approved a higher seducation quotient for storylines - those women in their evening-wear sure do sashay...

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:12 am

I never acctually played Tomb Raider, but needless to say I'd like to know whether or not it's possible. After all, if you DID have the ability to atleast seduce him a couple of times it would be quite interesting. Who's not to say Vampires can't get together and bond somehow? I read somewhere that sometimes a vampire 'couple' would drink each other's blood (though not enough to diablerize each other) in order to bond better with one another. I don't know if this is true of course. Do we have any big Vampire-Lore experts in da house?

ProgRockGhoul · Post by **ProgRockGhoul** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:07 pm

*semi-spoilers?*

My female Ventrue with a 10 Persuasion only had a few chances to 'persuade' Lacroix, and he sees right through at least one of these. Persuasion and domination are probably his strengths, considering his rise to the top to become prince (and his use of domination on recalcitrant PC vampires). ... But I just looked at my saved game and saw that her Seduction was a mighty 1 - doh! Now I'm curious to try again with a high seduction score to see what the answer to your question might be.

I also played a male Toreador with high Seduction (8 Seduction, 8 Persuasion, high Humanity throughout), but seducing Lacroix was never an option. Perhaps a Ventrue with a 10 Seduction might have better luck - or maybe he's got a thing for sexy Gangrels, who knows.

regarding the earlier part of the thread:

I agree that it would have been nice to see more variation in the endings (siding with Lacroix, or with the Anarchs). It seems like your vampire is railroaded into following the main plot, even when it means acting against character, because the same events are going to occur every time. I still love the game and replay if often, but I wish the team could have had as much time and money as others did for huge games like Baldur's Gate 2 or World of Warcraft.

I've finished the game four times so far (2 with Anarchs, 1 with Lacroix, 1 going alone), and the endings all play out the same for the major players involved - the only difference is where you decide to place your character. I'm working on two games now - siding with the Kuei-Jin, then with the Tremere - that I'm looking forward to finishing, since I've heard these end a bit differently.

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:44 pm

Yeah... I think Troika was part of Black Isle before it split up so yeah. But anyway I don't really know whether I want to try with a 10 Seduction Ventrue Female or not. Just because it seems like too much of a hassle just to 'maybe' get those extra dialogues or changes. If I had a sertainty I'd do it, but I don't want to use up a week exp-ing up my Character just to side with LaCroix at the end without gettin' any. Thus far I've finished it 1 Gangrel (male) with LaCroix 1 Gangrel (female) going it alone. I've been making this Toreador (male) and I'm near the end, thinkin' bout siding with the Kwei-Jin but I just began a Ventrue (male) thinking about going with the Camarilla.

I got really really pissed off about the LaCroix ending, especially after everything I went through with my character. It just seems kind of... pointless. But RP-Esque of course... I mean it is realistic and original as far as endings go. Just not to my liking.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:47 pm

There are no seduction lines for LaCroix, regardless of how high your Seduction feat is. You can use persuasion on him to get a little extra cash out of him, but that's it.

As far as love and "bonding" between Kindred goes, it can happen - sort of. Drinking a vampire's blood three times results in the blood bond, an extremely potent emotional and psychological bond. Ghouls are bound to their vampiric masters in this manner. They can feel only worship and veneration for their master, and will obey their commands without question. In time, however, a ghoul will invariably realize that the "love" she feels for her master is more like an addiction than a real emotional bond and that it comes hand in hand with eternal servitude. Vandal in the Santa Monica blood bank is a perfect exmample of this. He loathes his mistress Therese for what she's done to him, but at the same time he cannot help but worship her and attend to her every whim.

It's the same among vampires. Two Kindred may choose to become bound to each other this way, but vampires are a notoriously treacherous and suspicious lot. Knowledge of the blood bond and what it does to you psychologically would poison any love two Kindred might share. There would always be that doubt - Is this really love, or just the blood bond?

Then there's the choice of whether to enter into the blood bond with your vampire lover in the first place. What if you drink of her blood, but she refuses to drink yours in turn? You might find yourself forever bound, a helplessly willing slave for all eternity. You have to be pretty damn sure your feelings are reciprocated before taking on that kind of committment.

Here are a couple of articles you may find interesting:

Vampire Erotica: Kindred Pleasures
Love Amonst the Damned

It should be noted that these articles are not official source material, but rather one storyteller's interpretation of such material.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:59 am

Yes, as mentioned, in essence seduction is wasted on Kindred. Their... Bits... No longer function, and their hearts are cold and isolated to once beautiful feelings like true, honest love and desire. They can feel LUST... But not in the way you think or want. Seducing a vampire is a one way trip to becoming part of their property, not part of their life. Seduction on La Croix would have used the Finance ability, if you take my meaning.

Before anyone brings it up, yes you can use "Seduction" on VV... But for those of you a little slow to pick up on it, she talks real nice till you're through doing things that she wants you to do, then you're pretty much no use to her at all... Gee, I wounder what happend? Could she have been... Using you??

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:01 am

Everyone uses you one way or another in this game - anyway the amusing thing though is the fact that with my Ventrue, I acctually shun women. I told Jeanette to take a hike, had Therese kill her off. Then I killed Venus, treat Heather like crap and tell VV to pike off as well. It's kind of fun, because I go against my personal instincts ^^; - But to not deviate from the subject...

Anaximander, thanks for those Links. I'll read up on 'em.

Also, I suppose the reason why 'male' Kindred in particular can't have sex is because their blood doesn't flow anymore, since their heart no longer beats, and if it no longer beats I guess they can't achieve an erection. Jeanette seems to still get down and dirty because well, women don't need hydraulics in order to work. She'd technically only need a bit of artificial lubrication if her body is no longer able to produce it and that's that.

So in that sense I guess seduction would be wasted on Kindred, but it's sad the fact that there's no way to even ingage in light foreplay with humans, and be like Jeanette if you play a female, or with women if you're a male. Granted your phallus may no longer work but you still have hands and a mouth and the expertese and knowledge of how things worked when you were alive. *nods*

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:19 pm

Granted your phallus may no longer work but you still have hands and a mouth and the expertese and knowledge of how things worked when you were alive. *nods*

That may be, but since Kindred bodies are dead they are incapable of reaching physical climax. A male vampire can spend a blood point to give himself an erection, and a female can do the same to simulate lubrication. They can spend additional blood points to warm their cold bodies, make their blood flow, and their hearts beat. But why bother? They are capable of feeling the physical sensation, but they will never feel any satisfaction from it. Besides, physical pleasures are nothing compared to the pure ecstacy a vampire feels when draining the blood from another being.

The articles in linked in my previous post explain things more thoruoghly.

Oh, and as for Jeanette, her nymphomania is a merely a sympton of Malkavian madness. Listen closely next time you decide to sleep with her. At the end, she sighs and says "So bored..." She may be briefly entertained by such acts of debauchery, but you can never truly satisfy her in this manner.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:31 pm

Women shouldn't be able to seduce Lacroix, just the men. Because everyone wonders if he is..

Ah that's his business.

Jhereg · Post by **Jhereg** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:32 pm

Tricky wrote:Women shouldn't be able to seduce Lacroix, just the men. Because everyone wonders if he is..

Ah that's his business.

He may be a prissy, pompous windbag, but "I was an officer in Napoleon's ranks"? He was human at a time when prissy and pompous was Haute Couture for someone in his position, and I imagine such traits get datestamped on your hide when you're embraced. Maybe he's gay, don't get me wrong, but I think it unlikely. Just Napoleonic French. The whole sniffing the scented handkerchief and looking archly down your nose bit, while lisping in a distainful way.

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:31 pm

@Jhereg - I don't think he's gay either, but his 'pompus' manner is simply because he happens to be an aristocrat. Then again, officers weren't always nobles, especially not when Napoleon's Rule was one of giving lower ranks the chance to move up into society. Thus Sebastien LaCroix might not even have been noble, but rather the son of a peasant who, by joining the army, climbed the ranks and began to mingle with royalty. Thus he would be 'More Papist than the Pope' as the expression goes, as in showing himself and acting much more noble and pampered than a true artisocrat would seeing as it would be something he'd never had before.

@Anaximander - I guess you're right. But I thought that Vampirism hightened your senses as well. In the sense that, when they touched something they wouldn't be numb to it. But have some kind of censory capacity to be able to feel the texture of things. If that's so wouldn't the sensitive flesh of their genitals be able to feel the same sort of hightened sensations?

PS. I didn't know a Vampire could spend a blood point to give himself an erection *writes that down* Might be good to know if I ever play a World of Darkness Campaign ^.^

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:15 pm

Gee.. I don't know. The Sheriff took his shirt off pretty quickly in the final battle? I wonder how they hooked up in the first place.

Seriously though, I don't think he is either. Male gay characters generally tend to thrown in the face in games and movies. I think subtle hasn't been invented yet, which is kind of demeaning in its own way. If Lacroix had been gay, we would have known.

Pity. He could have had a tremendous fangirl following.

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:21 am

Another thing I wanted to say was the fact that Vampires (I might be wrong) tend to be a bit bisexual don't they? I mean... they can swing both ways as far as I've seen in movies and such. In Interview with the vampire there's a lot of homo-erotic tension going on especially with Armand. In Queen of the Damned there's the same type of thing between Lestat and his sire I believe.

There just seems to be some kind of like... 'love for all things beautiful' be they male or female.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:04 am

Vampires are not "Bi-sexual" they are "A-sexual"... Once more I cannot stress this enough. It's not a love of both sexes, it's an utter indifference to either sex. To most vampires, in fact, all the sweat and body grinding and juices and loud noises and time taken for sexual activity is rather off-putting and distasteful... Imagine you don't sweat and don't leak juices of any kind... And some sweat covered, muck drenched hobo in the street offers you a chance for him/her to salivate into your nose and ears... And then has the audacity to make it seem like they are doing YOU a favour!! Urk!... Filthy Kine!

Some Vampires, those quite deeply linked to their humanity, those addicted to the hormones and pleasures released during sexual activity, those who are insane, or those who are marticularly brutal, ruthless and vile might use sexual activity... Either as a way to stay in touch with the beauty of the human condition (Whiners), a way to get a hot rush in the blood (Hedonists!), or a simple means to an ends (At last, down to business.). So try not to think of vampires as "Bi-sexual"... Think of it more as if humans were a cartoon of milk. If I drew a dress and long hair and lipstick on a cartoon of milk, would the milk be any less nice then if I drew some pants and a shirt and a 5'oclock shadow on the cartoon? They all have good milk in them, who cares what the packet looks like.

That being said, yes, sick, disgusting mortals don't taste the same as healthy rich ones... But then again, you wouldn't drink from a milk cartoon that was open, in the sun and crawling with ants either, would you?

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:31 am

[quote="Adahn]But I thought that Vampirism hightened your senses as well. In the sense that"]

I never said they couldn't feel it. Only that such physical pleasures pale in comparison to they ecstacy a vampire feels when it feeds. Also, as animated corpses they are incapable of climaxing. They don't get tired, so they could potentially keep on going forever, but they would never orgasm either.

As pennypincher explains, there are some few vampires who do choose to engage in sexual activity with mortals, but most Kindred wouldn't even think to do so.

Since vampires are not living things with a biological life cycle, they have no sex drive. No urge to engage in the reproductive act. In a sense, this sort of allows them to transcend the mortal percetions of sexuality. Vampires can percieve and admire beauty, regardless of the gender of the person they see it in. However, in vampries this is an aesthetic appreciation, not a sexual attraction. Kindred can feel lust, but it's different for them than it is for us. It's more like an intense desire to taste someone's blood, and in so doing experience them in a way that no mortal lover could.

ProgRockGhoul · Post by **ProgRockGhoul** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:22 pm

Tricky wrote:Women shouldn't be able to seduce Lacroix, just the men. Because everyone wonders if he is..

Ah that's his business.

Funny paraphrasing of Chunk, the true hero of the story.

Jeanette seems to still get down and dirty because well, women don't need hydraulics in order to work. She'd technically only need a bit of artificial lubrication if her body is no longer able to produce it and that's that.

This reminded me of one of the game's more disgusting lines of dialogue. Cemetery guard Romero put the moves on my lady Malkavian (he couldn't resist her whopping 2 Seduction (it might have been 1)), and she responded with something about cutting and drenching her lady parts with blood to give him the sensation he's looking for.

On an unrelated note, I love VV's emails after she's done having you run her errands. I was listening to sound files for the hell of it, and found that Damsel at one point says "I'll send you an email." Has anyone received email from Damsel, or is she just being a smart-ass?