GameBanshee Forums

Coot wrote:Verdonk's party lost big time so I'm thinking the burqa will be around in Holland for some time. All of them

Yeah, the Socialistic Part is even bigger (they used to be about three times smaller)

Malta Soron wrote:In the 19th century people recognized this isn't the case; everybody is different. Henceforth should everybody be treated (and given rights) depending on their unique personality. This could for example mean that only people who are (most) qualified to vote can vote. However, the idea of equal rights survived and is still part of the western culture.

Now, wait a minute. I have questions.

1. First of all, what 'rights' are you talking about? Legal rights (rights/duties determined by legislatures)? Or human rights (social expectations, human dignity concept etc.)? Or moral rights, or so-called 'God-given' rights? Or does it seem all the same to you?
2. Do you suggest that the concept of 'rights' did not evolve since 19 century? Or does the 'survived' idea of equal rights reign supreme, in you opinion?
3. When you say 'treated and given rights depending on their unique personality', what personal qualities are you referring to? I guess, you have to answer my first question first...

Oh, you funny guys you. So, to blow a bit more on the horrendously yank PC embers that has been smoldering here: My original link, before it got edited by the CNN "for some reason", claimed that 30(!) moslem women in Holland wears a burqua. I live in a country with five million people, and I can put my face right outside my front door, and see/behold a burqua any time! I live in a country where we're supposed to be the richest, nicest, most pleasant country in the world, I kid you not (you can check this out) and we're kissing the posterior of organized PC'ism to the point where we're losing the battle right front and center. Case in point: Our health system is going belly-up beyond repair. Patients, if they even get INTO a hospital, have to sleep in the corridors, and wait like a Stalingrad-amputee for a doctor to look after them. So what happened a month ago? Yesss. The Health Ministry bowed down under the pressure of... I dunno, according to this website/thread, the righteous, and spent 2 million Crowns on disposable Burquas, because our new nurses can't go to work without them. The pressure groups are out there, and some people, like the PC-lot, just don't know how to stop it. "Because it's such a wrong thing..." isn't it?

I mean, is it such a wrong thing to demand that a person who comes to a country and wants to live there.. at least TRIES to conform to the natural, everyday rules set by that nation? Is it? Because if it ain't, I'll push this to the point and wear a ski-mask and a tent the next time I visit the bank.

Wheeze-Wheeze.....

Moonbiter wrote: My original link, before it got edited by the CNN "for some reason", claimed that 30(!) moslem women in Holland wears a burqua. I live in a country with five million people, and I can put my face right outside my front door, and see/behold a burqua any time!
.....
So what happened a month ago? Yesss. The Health Ministry bowed down under the pressure of... I dunno, according to this website/thread, the righteous, and spent 2 million Crowns on disposable Burquas, because our new nurses can't go to work without them.

:laugh: :laugh: Apparently, all 30 women are nurses (and all 30 live in your neighborhood). Media lied about welfare and such. How many disposable burqas can you buy for 2 million Crowns? I know the regular ones are sold over Internet for about 10 bucks each.

Its late and I have had a long day. But here is an interesting report the average person does not get to see.

If you want to look up the rest of the reports go to ods.un.org and search the.

The report I am linking is E/CN.4/2006/54 which you can search for at http://documents.un.org/advance.asp

Just type in E/CN.4/2006/54 - where it says symbol. Sadly I can't hyperlink it.

It basically is a summary of the rise of racism linking it with the political and intellectual legitimization of racism within mainstream politics.

I will respond to the posts some time this week.

Summary

The present study is submitted pursuant to Commission on Human Rights resolution 2005/36 (para. 17) on the incompatibility between democracy and racism, in which the Commission invited the Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance to review and further expand the study on the question of political platforms which promote or incite racial discrimination and to submit it to the Commission at its sixty-second session. This document constitutes a preliminary study owing to the limited number of replies received from Member States and the fact that a workshop on this subject will be held in Brazil in April 2006, which will provide more exhaustive data. The Special Rapporteur submits a provisional report herewith to be followed by a more complete report after the Workshop.

This intermediate report confirms the significant tendencies identified in the previous report, such as the normalization of racism, racial discrimination and xenophobia for political ends, the penetration of the racist political platforms of extreme right-wing parties and movements in the political programmes of democratic parties and the growing intellectual legitimization of these platforms. This new and particularly alarming phenomenon affects those tendencies through a “lowering of the guard” on the part of Governments in the fight against racism and the acceptance of open racism in large sectors of the populations of many countries. Racism therefore constitutes the greatest threat to democracy.

That is the summary of the report. I will try to find the one that deals with muslims living in europe.

Lady Dragonfly wrote:Now, wait a minute. I have questions.

1. First of all, what 'rights' are you talking about? Legal rights (rights/duties determined by legislatures)? Or human rights (social expectations, human dignity concept etc.)? Or moral rights, or so-called 'God-given' rights? Or does it seem all the same to you?
2. Do you suggest that the concept of 'rights' did not evolve since 19 century? Or does the 'survived' idea of equal rights reign supreme, in you opinion?
3. When you say 'treated and given rights depending on their unique personality', what personal qualities are you referring to? I guess, you have to answer my first question first...

1. I meant the category of stuff like the Universal Human Rights, so that would be God- (or nature-)given rights (from which then the legislature is derived).
2. Good point, I hadn't thought about that myself yet (bad historian! ). I'm under the impression that the idea of equal rights hasn't changed in a significant way since it was put out by the French Revolution.
3. The personal qualities relevant to the specific situation, I'd say. It's a rather abstract thing, and I can't really put it to words well (bad historian!). But I think it would mean that everybody gets his own pack of rights he deserves/needs.

Lady Dragonfly wrote::laugh: :laugh: Apparently, all 30 women are nurses (and all 30 live in your neighborhood). Media lied about welfare and such. How many disposable burqas can you buy for 2 million Crowns? I know the regular ones are sold over Internet for about 10 bucks each.

There are thirty burqa-wearing women in Holland, and Moonbiter is referring to Sweden, where he lives (I think)

edit: by Sweden I actually mean Norway. Norway has just under 5 million citizens. Sweden has just over 9. So Norway.

Vicsun wrote:There are thirty burqa-wearing women in Holland, and Moonbiter is referring to Sweden, where he lives (I think)

edit: by Sweden I actually mean Norway. Norway has just under 5 million citizens. Sweden has just over 9. So Norway.

Does it really matter? :laugh:

Lady Dragonfly wrote:Does it really matter? :laugh:

Of course. Spending two million kroner on burqas for 30 women would be silly, wouldn't it

Vicsun wrote:edit: by Sweden I actually mean Norway.

Exactly which nation are you trying to insult, here?

Wouldn't the females who use burkas, use them regardless of where they work? And if so, why would any government need to buy them burkas? They'd already have them.

fable wrote:Exactly which nation are you trying to insult, here?

He is picking fight with Vikings, may God help his soul.

fable wrote:Wouldn't the females who use burkas, use them regardless of where they work? And if so, why would any government need to buy them burkas? They'd already have them.

Disposable burqas. Like gloves, bonnets and other disposable paraphernalia used in the hospitals. I assume the <scandinavian country> goverment is importing disposable burqas from an <islamic country> unless there is a local factory producing them.

fable wrote:Exactly which nation are you trying to insult, here?

If I could insult every single nation in the world with one sentence, I'd be repeating that sentence like a parrot on crack. I'd move on to religions next. Have you read Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle? In my dreamworld, I would ridicule, mock and abuse every single granfalloon until the last one of them crumbles to dust

Sorry for the sidetrack - I promise my next post in this thread will be really serious and outline my views on the Dutch, burqas and other associated... things

Vicsun wrote:If I could insult every single nation in the world with one sentence, I'd be repeating that sentence like a parrot on crack. I'd move on to religions next. Have you read Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle? In my dreamworld, I would ridicule, mock and abuse every single granfalloon until the last one of them crumbles to dust

Sorry for the sidetrack - I promise my next post in this thread will be really serious and outline my views on the Dutch, burqas and other associated... things

I hope the norwegians are really insulted - then pin it on Sweden!! We've been wanting them to invade for at least ten years, so they can put a stop to the absurd consensus'ism that reaps havoc in the corporate world, and - of course - pay off our national debt.

To illustrate what makes the Burka law ridiculous, let's have a look at some other symbols of female oppression.

- High heel shoes
- Corsettes
- Cosmetics

Now, these have been going in and out of fashion depending on their current state in the fashion industry and what the current feminist opinion is on the subject. Symbols have the value you attribute to them, and that may change over time.

I found an article that gives a view on what might be the real problem:

[url="http://www.slate.com/id/2152031/?nav=navoa"]Some Washington Post-related magazine[/url]

...and I would agree to the main sentiment. I do consider it rather impolite to be addressed by someone wearing a mask, unless it's at a masquerade. I would find it more so if it were by someone representing the government, although at times it does feel appropriate.

Silur wrote: To illustrate what makes the Burka law ridiculous, let's have a look at some other symbols of female oppression.

- High heel shoes
- Corsettes
- Cosmetics

That reminded me of so-called bra-burning feminists of sixties.

Jone Johnson Lewis:
"The symbolic act of tossing those clothes into the trash can was meant as a serious critique of the modern beauty culture, of valuing women for their looks instead of their whole self. (Older feminists may remember that romantic line savvy men began to use, "I love you for your mind?") "Going braless" felt like a revolutionary act - being comfortable above meeting social expectations. "

I don't think you can compare high heel shoes to burqas; the former is a fashion statement, something a woman may choose to wear, the latter is a mandatory garment imposed on females starting at age 10. Not wearing burqa in public is a serious crime in islamic society.

Silur wrote:...and I would agree to the main sentiment. I do consider it rather impolite to be addressed by someone wearing a mask, unless it's at a masquerade. I would find it more so if it were by someone representing the government, although at times it does feel appropriate.

And so would I.

fable wrote:Exactly which nation are you trying to insult, here?

As soon as I get to wear my fire/electricity-resistant jacket, I'll cite you for troll-bait and give you an infraction. *runs behind Buck for cover* :laugh:

Seriously though, wouldn't it be better if we let the women choose whether they would like to wear the burqa or not?

In the Phils. we have Muslim women both wearing and not wearing burqas.

Lady Dragonfly wrote: I don't think you can compare high heel shoes to burqas; the former is a fashion statement, something a woman may choose to wear, the latter is a mandatory garment imposed on females starting at age 10. Not wearing burqa in public is a serious crime in islamic society.

It is actually only required in one country; Saudi Arabia. It's the most restrictive totalitarian state in the region - far worse than Iraq ever was in terms of restrictions on personal freedom. The religious police are charming fellows who ask you very politely to go pray - with a stick! (Some even had those pleasant South African batoons, whatever they're called) Not even Iran comes close, and they're the next one down on the fundamentalism list.

Nowadays I may agree with you to some extent that a fashion statement is a matter of choice. I wouldn't say that it has always been so - not even during my lifetime. When I grew up, if you looked different and didn't wear "the right clothes", you were ostracised by your peers - trust me, I'm a strong proponent for school uniforms. My mother tells me that if you didn't look right when she was younger, you would be regarded as a peasant and you wouldn't have a job besides being a maid on a farm, or similar. How is that voluntary, and is it in any way better?

Fable wrote:

Exactly which nation are you trying to insult, here?

Wouldn't the females who use burkas, use them regardless of where they work? And if so, why would any government need to buy them burkas? They'd already have them.

LOL!

Okay, I can stop being a firestarter. You wanna know exactly what kind of situation causes racism up here on The Reef? Check this out: A little under a year ago an islamist pressure group appeared, demanding that all Moslem nurses who wanted it should get to wear burquas to work. Some people raised an eyebrow a trifle, but this was during the Mohammad-cartoon controversy, so the whole situation went largely unnoticed by the media, which suited the spineless bureaucrats in the government perfectly. You’re not going to tell a population who’s watching their flags and embassies burned, their aid workers shot at and their businesses looted on television every day, that you’re going to spend 2 million NOK (roughly $380 000) on disposable headwear for a small group of nurses. That just won’t do. Especially in a country where people are dying waiting in line to get in to a hospital because those very same bureaucrats fail/refuse to delegate enough money to the health system.

We have a very large Moslem population, and the burqua has been up for debate on numerous occasions. There are areas in our larger cities where women NOT wearing one are in a clear minority, and it has been pointed out by everyone from academics and researchers to women’s rights organizations that the burqua is a major contributor in the failure to integrate Moslem women in to our society. It has also been used consistently in violations of the law and human rights. A couple of years ago a woman posed as her own daughter in school for 14 days while the daughter was smuggled abroad to be circumcised.

To get back on track: The hospital burquas would have to be disposable, as national health regulations states that all head/facial wear can not be washed and re-used, but has to be disposed of. So the money is spent, the burquas are delivered, and that’s when the manure hits the proverbial fan, and the whole thing goes from strange to downright bizarre. The pressure group releases a statement where they utterly refuse to wear them, and are highly insulted because the colors are wrong! The said colors of course being hospital white and “scrub-blue.” Is anyone getting a mild headache yet? I haven’t even started. The Islamic spokesperson for the Nurses Union goes public and says “Waitaminute! We never requested this! What’s going on here? Are we being forced to wear burquas to work?” Now the press is finally catching on, and a lot of interesting facts are suddenly being uncovered. It turned out that the original pressure group was exclusively male, consisting of a couple of Moslem doctors and a gathering of notoriously hardline Imams. There wasn’t a single female nurse involved. After a couple of weeks of public witch hunts for the persons responsible for the whole circus act, the whole tragicomic debacle quiets down and is mostly forgotten, like these things tend to do up here. What we’re left with is a dusty closet full of 2 million bucks worth of disposable burquas which will probably never be used, because even if a Moslem nurse WANTS to use one, she wouldn’t dare to do so. We’ve also added more fuel to racism, bigotry and general intolerance, and once again given proof to the old saying about “The road to hell being paved with good intentions... blah blah.”

Let me just end this by making it perfectly clear that I in no way support a legal ban on burquas or any other piece of clothing. In fact, I would rather loudly protest any such ridiculous decision. However, I do find the burqua and what it represents to be completely disgusting, and hope it will vanish on its own.

Thus endeth this rant.

Moonbiter wrote: Let me just end this by making it perfectly clear that I in no way support a legal ban on burquas or any other piece of clothing. In fact, I would rather loudly protest any such ridiculous decision. However, I do find the burqua and what it represents to be completely disgusting, and hope it will vanish on its own.

Sign me up on this one. Also, I view a ban as contraproductive in this respect.

Moonbiter, that first line you quoted of me wasn't a serious question (the winking emoticon was left out), and it wasn't aimed at you, nor was it about the Netherlands or Islam. "Exactly which nation are you trying to insult, here? was in response to Vicsun's

edit: by Sweden I actually mean Norway.

I really don't like to be taken out of context, though you might have meant it humorously. Hard to tell at times, up here. For the rest:

There are areas in our larger cities where women NOT wearing one are in a clear minority, and it has been pointed out by everyone from academics and researchers to women’s rights organizations that the burqua is a major contributor in the failure to integrate Moslem women in to our society. It has also been used consistently in violations of the law and human rights.

Everyone's pointed it out, uh? The same academnics who know that Jews wearing skullcaps prevents them from intergrating with Dutch culture? Have they also released reports showing that cross pendants should be banned, because those naughty Christians are clearly using them as a sly method to avoid being part of the secularist state?

Moonbiter, you did ask for any thoughts, and any thoughts qualify a lot of thoughts.

Here are other news reports of the Burqa Ban. Mainly because I am interested to see how people report the news in different corners of the world.
Dutch to ban Muslim veils | | The Australian
Al Jazeera English - Archive
Oman Tribune - the edge of knowledge
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/article ... ticlePage1

Considering the fact of how easy it is to find historical articles and essays from Watergate to Vietnam and all the way to how Crimean War affected Baltic Economy. I found it both surprising and disappointing how little I was able to find about the female Muslim dress code, especially about its history. When I was used to be finding results varying from tens to hundreds, with the history of Muslim dress it was less than three sites. Albeit I have to admit of not giving it as much time as I usually do, as I have to have the time for my studies too.
Here are two of the links:
Women In The Muslim World- Sample Essay (Women in World History Curriculum)
The evolution of the burqa « Black Veil

And here are two stories of western women wearing the scarf:
Backstory: A burqa's-eye view | csmonitor.com
Why I wore a headscarf in Iran - special report - news - channel4.com

And little bit more, all worth reading through, if you don’t have much time look for “*”:
Hijab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia *
Women in Muslim societies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
History News Network
History
Islamic Clothing *
Culturally Sensitive Care of the Muslim Patient -- Lawrence and Rozmus 12 (3): 228 -- Journal of Transcultural Nursing
“I wouldn’t want to be a Muslim woman in the Middle East”: White female student teachers and the narrative of the oppressed woman *
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Why Muslim women wear the veil *
BBC News | In graphics: Muslim veils, Covering up
Islamic Clothing
The Indian Express : Editorials & Analysis *
Women in Islam (Lots of articles, and lack of time...)



The older generation of immigrants might not integrate to the society. But I’d like to think optimistically that their children will.

I guess I am pretty much walking the same path as you do. But I wouldn’t find it rude if someone would approach me, and all I could see from the person would be small area around his eyes. This is because in my country we usually have colder winters than the ones in central Europe. So it is possible that someone is so well dressed up that all I can see is his eyes. Plus it has been quite popular in the winter fashion to wear big woollen scarves and wool caps. After all it is best to not catch cold.

I am 100% against the “Afghanistan Burqa”; however, it wouldn’t stop me from talking with someone wearing one.



There are more links than my actual writing. I guess it is better that way.