Holland may forbid burka's (no spam)

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:03 pm

Holland may forbid burkas (no spam)

Check this out: Dutch seek ban on burkas in public - CNN.com

Any thoughts?

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm

So what do they outlaw next? Crosses on necklaces? Jewish skullcaps? Teeshirts featuring images from Buddha statues? This is ridiculous.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:17 pm

Fable wrote:

So what do they outlaw next? Crosses on necklaces? Jewish skullcaps? Teeshirts featuring images from Buddha statues? This is ridiculous.

Maybe it is, but there has been a lot of debate going on as to the symbolism of the Burka, and I'm starting to understand the point. Let me blow a little on the embers of this debate by saying

"Burkas are a symbol of female oppression."

That's a good one, actually.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:18 pm

*sigh*
Mixed feelings on this one....

My first interpretation, which is also suggested by the article is that this is nothing other than political opportunism in that the Dutch government, soon to be facing elections is attempting to seize on a burgeoning anti-Muslim sentiment. Hmmmm.... I believe something similar was tried in Germany once upon a time....

Another significant issue here is that it will amplify Western/Muslim tensions even further than is the case now.. and they are already at an extreme low... I'm not sure if it could get much worse.

I personally have a very low tolerance for the fundamentalist dogma behind the insistence on burkas....
But, I perhaps despise the reasons this is being legislated even more.
Moreover, as I stated above, it is dangerous to exacerbate existing tensions even further.
When the religious headgear situation arose in France that was bad enough... and they weren't even ostensibly targeting Muslims, that was (at least on the surface) a universal application.

@Moonbiter,
yes... hence the reason for my mixed feelings...

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:21 pm

Moonbiter wrote:Fable wrote:

Maybe it is, but there has been a lot of debate going on as to the symbolism of the Burka, and I'm starting to understand the point. Let me blow a little on the embers of this debate by saying

"Burkas are a symbol of female oppression."

That's a good one, actually.

Yeah, I know. But at the same time, I've heard interviews with Muslim women who claim that the burka is a part of their worship, and that they resent being told they can't wear it. Hell, one very liberated female radio talkshow host in the UK held a series of programs criticizing the male member of Blair's cabinet who delbierately wouldn't speak to a woman in a burka. She was in turn interviewed later, and waxed pretty eloquent about why she felt she was the best judge of what a burka meant, and whether she should wear it, or not.

That said, I can see some reason on both sides. What I can't see is a national law that forces people to do exactly one thing, when it isn't the government's business to involve itself in religion--unless religion first tries to plays the bully and overstep its bounds.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:58 pm

I understand every point put out, but the Burka is still, IMHO, a bad thing. If you're getting huffy about not being able to wear it, so what? The whole thing is a moot point. It's a revolting symbol of parts of an (arguably, but please let's not get into that) religion where females are treated as private property.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:06 pm

Personally I think that singling out this particular symbol of female oppression is extremely opportunistic and has nothing to do with women's liberation at all. The politicians however, can in one stroke show diligence on women's lib and appease the anti-muslim crowd, so for publicity it's pure genious. Attacking the symbol will have no effect whatsoever but to enrage the muslim community, but attacking the problem requires efforts in education and active involvement in the muslim community - something that is much more expensive than making up a law.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:36 pm

Those wacky Dutch. 'Suits make me feel oppressed, <edit: Profanity rules - Xandax>!'

Let's face it, that suit isn't the real issue. If it is then I want to see police arresting nuns and monks as well. And people in fursuits.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:50 pm

Let me illustrate the hypocrasy.

Moonbiter you wear a shirt right? Well I find that an oppressive symbol according to what I feel - not based on facts mind you, purely based on my subjective feelings and personal assumptions and biases. Thus i legislate the fact that you can not wear a shirt.

Your opinion does not matter. Why? Because this is what I think, and whatever you say is irrelevant because I am allowed to do whatever I think is right in my country.

The irony is that the dutch government is violating the right to freedom of expression, the freedom of religion and the right not to be discriminated against, all part of the Universal Declaration of human rights, which were established after world war 2 so that racism would not take hold again in the world.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:54 pm

Being prohibited to say what I want to in this country, despite the fact this country boasts Freedom of Speech, I think that is bogus. I've been tossed out of places for what I wear, so I can kind of understand what people there wanting to wear that would be feeling. It's not a religious thing that I tend to wear, but it still something I feel strongly about sometimes.

On to important issues... *pounces on Fas* You've been hiding you little bastard.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:18 pm

It's surely not coincidental that it times out right around Dutch elections, too. Old members of parlement want to stay in office, new ones want to prove themselves. What's easier for both, than attacking a convenient scapegoat? Especially when it doesn't cost any taxpayer money. I just thought this kind of thing was more to be expected in France, not in the Netherlands--but the latter has been getting kind of nationalistic lately.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:27 am

Contemporary politics, nothing more. Some aging politician discovers he's doing bad in the polls, decides he needs some media attention, so he shoots his mouth off at a touchy subject hoping polarizing public opinion will gain him favor of at least one half of the voters. It may have worked right after Fortuyn was shot and after Van Gogh was stabbed for making that movie, but now it's only provoking bored and slightly annoyed reactions.

The real danger of this 'political trolling' is that the people are starting to ignore politics altogether. Presently there is a serious image-problem akin to 'Peter and the Wolf' that needs to be solved within the next decade or so, or else we might end up with French situations where the politicians and the common folk have distanced themselves to such a point that they're assaulting the police and setting cars on fire all around the Grand Couronne.

I am Dutch by the way, so I am kind of on top of this.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:53 am

@Tricky: I though the problem was that not even the Dutch were on top of things...

I met a dutchman a few years back who said that the international view of the Netherlands as being liberal and politically avant garde, was simply a misunderstanding of the widespread and generalized indifference raging throughout the country. The recent rise of intolerance and calls for more restrictive governance would be a natural reaction to this, and pinning a large part of the problems on a culturally different minority has always been a successful recipe for mustering support from the ignorant masses. Muslims are simply the jews of our time...

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:16 am

The tragic thing is that that which ends up calling for more of that restrictive governance is more often than not plagued by the same bias that caused the problem in the first place, resulting in these kind of stupid, biased actions. The only line between just politics and human bias is law and common sense, and the fact that there is an increasing number of politicians (plus people who vote them in office) which are blind to the fact that banning burka's is simply discrimination taken out on a piece of garment instead of the people just proves that line is blurring.

Malta Soron · Post by **Malta Soron** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:30 am

Being a Dutchman I want to note that I agree with the aforementioned stuff and that is really sucks to live under this government (Rita Verdonk

. Luckily the elections are next week and I know what I'm gonna vote: SP, hard-core socialists!

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:03 pm

And the irony is that there's nary a burka to be found in all of Holland.

Some minor dutch politician recently said that ignoring the rise of Islam in Holland is comparable to us ignoring the rise of national-socialism in the 1930's. Another one has compared muslim immigrants to a tsunami.
Those people will never win the elections. But they do get votes; enough votes for us not to ignore them.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:37 pm

The burka is possibly forbidded on 2 points:
1- Woman oppresion
2- safety

1-
Yes, its puts women down. But would you change if your 40/50 and someone told you never to do something they way you always did it?
My point is, any result achieved this way is fragile. It's better to take small steps and create a more stable fundation for not wearing burka's.

Women should be motivated to grow, courses and education and activities. When they grow as a person, they will shake of the burka themselves. You see this with the 2nd generation immigrants living in western countries. They are well educated and dress 'normally'.
They want this themselves and it's not forced upon them. The result is stable and long lasting

2-
Safety is not improved by not wearing burka's.
I can wear a bomb under my jacket for all anyone can see.

In conclusion:
Stimulate women to grow and shed the burka off themselves, not forbid it.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:32 am

@Rob-hin: I agree totally. But this law is not so much about muslim women, it's about getting votes when your party is down in the polls.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:17 am

Coot wrote:Some minor dutch politician recently said that ignoring the rise of Islam in Holland is comparable to us ignoring the rise of national-socialism in the 1930's.

I would agree on the "ignoring" and maybe even the ending comparison, but it's not the rise of Islam that's causing the problem. They're just the scape goats. I'm just waiting for the next version of the Crystal Night to occur in some european country...

Malta Soron · Post by **Malta Soron** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:30 pm

On burka's: is there reason to assume that the women who wear burka's in Holland feel being oppressed? Except for the hystirical who called herself Hirsi Ali I never hear of muslim women complaining that they have to wear a headscarf or burka.