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Lady Dragonfly wrote: Thank you, but I am familiar with the concept.

Ok, good It didn't seem you were judging from your comments and the sources you referred to.

Most certainly. Ericson's epigenetic principle and his "eight stages of personality development" readily spring to mind. Especially stage five.

Ericsson is horribly outdated in these discussions, although many laymen find his conceptualisation of developmental stages appealing.

You mean, when you stated "both are within the "young adult"-age span" , you spoke casually, not professionally? That is fine. The whole debate is more than casual. “Young adult” implies immaturity and lack of life experience (e.g. in Vicsunland ).

"Young adult" is not a professional term with a specific meaning, whereas "adolenscence" and "puberty" are. As I stated above, "young adult" loosely refers to a period between childhood and fully mature adulthood, very similar to "youth". I could as well have said "both are youths". With this, I meant that none of them is a child and none of them is a fully mature adult, ie they both belong approximately to the same developmental stage.

WHO defined the term "young adult"? Actually, I said nothing of the sort. The quote merely stated that According to the World Health Organization (WHO), adolescence covers the period of life between 10 and 20 years of age, and I would add, covers roughly. Do the "stages" overlap? Probably not from the rigid classification standpoint. But since we clarified that we talk casually, sure. After all, this kind of classification is approximate and subjective.

WHO defined the term "adolescence" and you used the WHO definition to claim my statement "both are within the "young adult"-age span" was incorrect. Of course, we could assume that you meant WHO's definition of "adolescence" has nothing to do with the term "young adult", but in that case it seems very strange of you to claim my use of the term "young adult" was, as you wrote, "incorrect from the WHO's point of vew" . How can my use of "young adult" be incorrect if there is no relationship at all between the two? It can't, unless you somehow assumed that one definition excluded the other. This is however incorrect. The non-professional term "young adult" do indeed overlap with the term "adolescent". I don't think this is at all remarkable or unusal at all. Let me take an example to illustrate:
The term "mental illness" is a non-professional term, usually referring to what in professional language might be called "axis I" disorders or "psychosis, mood disorders and personality disorder". The fact that the term "mental illness" is a non-expert term, does however not mean that it means everything or nothing. Nor does it mean that it does not overlap with other, professional and more specific terms.

From the routine medical standpoint, everybody is a child up to age 18. The Adolescent Medicine specialists are rare, here. If memory serves, only about 500 have ever been trained.[/QUOTE]

Here, almost all pediatrics specialise within a relatively narrow age range (at least those who work at larger hospitals, but most of them do). This is viewed as an advantage because many disorders and diseases have age-specific clinical presentation.

I couldn't follow all of what you two were saying but I do observe that a 22 year old has had more experience than a 16 year old. A 16 year old might idealize a relationship whereas a 22 year old may have learned that they come and go.

I know that there is no absolute line but I feel more leary of 22 dating 16 than I do of 26 dating 32. Although even in that case there might be hurdles.

Of course even a 22 year old dating a 22 year old can have difficult relationship. I would be concerned about my 16 year old daughter but it would be within the context. Feelings of anger or concern would probably have more to do with ME than with the daughter or the guy.

It didn't seem you were judging from your comments and the sources you referred to.

CE, I am deeply saddened that you don't like such a wonderful Source of Enlightenment as the WHO.
You won, lazy me is forced to open Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary that claims it "has served the needs of students, practitioners, and researchers as up-to-date source of the vocabulary of medicine". I hope you have nothing against Dorland?
We are on page 31:

Adolescence (L. adolenscentia), the period of life beginning with the appearance of secondary sex characteristics and terminating with the cessation of somatic growth, roughly from 11 to 19 years of age.

I am getting in the mood and keep flipping pages. We are on page 1385 now:

Puberty (L. pubertas), the period during which the secondary sex characteristics begin to develop and the capability of sexual reproduction is attained.
Precocious puberty -- the onset of sexual maturation at an earlier age than normal; the lower limit of normal may be considered as two standard deviations below the mean (8 years old for girls and 9 years old for boys), although a very small number of normal children will actually fall outside this range.

Of course, I could have proceeded to tell the world about all sorts of precocious puberty (central, heterosexual, idiopathic, incomplete and neurogenic) but I hate typing and talk professionally in SYM.

The point is the WHO's definition was not off the mark.

"Young adult" is not a professional term with a specific meaning, whereas "adolenscence" and "puberty" are. As I stated above, "young adult" loosely refers to a period between childhood and fully mature adulthood, very similar to "youth". I could as well have said "both are youths". With this, I meant that none of them is a child and none of them is a fully mature adult, ie they both belong approximately to the same developmental stage.

I don't mind. We already established that we talk casually, here. The reason I made my original remark is that every medical facility in the US is supposed to have a special training module on the age-specific care (for the medical staff), which includes a section "young adults", with the indicated age span 20-29 years old, as per official guidelines. I perfectly understand your reasoning though.

WHO defined the term "adolescence" and you used the WHO definition to claim my statement "both are within the "young adult"-age span" was incorrect. Of course, we could assume that you meant WHO's definition of "adolescence" has nothing to do with the term "young adult", but in that case it seems very strange of you to claim my use of the term "young adult" was, as you wrote, "incorrect from the WHO's point of vew" .

I should've added a few smileys after I said that, I know.
My humor is very dry.
Anyway, as I already said, I understand your reasoning. Please let me explain mine. If, by convention, adolescence covers the age up to 18-20 (to incorporate all definitions), and "young adult" term is somewhat officially accepted, at least in the US, to describe the 20-29 years old, your statement that 16 yrs old and 22 yrs old are "in the same young-adult age group" might be perceived as rather ambiguous.

I'm surprised that all of you people who are so concerned about today's youth (especially your own children) have not yet mentioned the danger of a child coming across a website like "Becoming a Pick Up Artist". It sets a bad example and teaches people horrible manners. "Buy me an energy drink!" How rude.

It's like I said before: there are lot of other issues to worry about when it comes to the welfare of young women.

Lady Dragonfly wrote:Puberty (L. pubertas), the period during which the secondary sex characteristics begin to develop and the capability of sexual reproduction is attained.
Precocious puberty -- the onset of sexual maturation at an earlier age than normal; the lower limit of normal may be considered as two standard deviations below the mean (8 years old for girls and 9 years old for boys), although a very small number of normal children will actually fall outside this range.

All of this "splitting hairs" over the definition of "puberty" and "adolescence" seems kind of silly to me since I can't remember what it has to do with a 22 year old guy having sex with a (willing) 16 year old girl. What can I say--I have chronic insomnia and my memory is impaired. But it occurs to me that I can make this discussion even sillier. You mentioned "precocious puberty", but what about the UPPER limit of [the onset of] puberty, which I presume is considered to be two standard deviations above the mean? (What age would that be?) Why can't a "normal" guy who started puberty late (say, at age 21) date a "normal" girl who started puberty early (say at age 9)? It's just two "normal" kids who are dating each other, right?

Of course there's a lot more to it than that. That's my point. So maybe you can see why these definitions don't seem particularly relevant to me. Even though I'd still buy CE an energy drink because I like her messages.

whoops

Claudius wrote:even if you start puberty doesn't mean you know a fish from a fritter haha!!!

Edit: come have some donut holes and apple cider and ward away those nasty boys!!! Seriously learn giving, patience, joyful effort, wisdom perfection, concentration (samadhi), and forgetting something haha///

look above little ladies. Seriously in 10 years that will be 100000000 times more important than little johnny. Not that you don't have to deal with their likes too (sigh). Ladies must go to many efforts to benefit all humanity afterall!!!!

Edit: note I forget ethics - which is not treating people like **** pardon my french

nominating this for 'best post in sym 2007'

e: Claudius, I'd buy you an energy drink if I could.

Vicsun wrote:nominating this for 'best post in sym 2007'

e: Claudius, I'd buy you an energy drink if I could.

I'd get him a glass of water against the splitting head ache he'll be having

Fiberfar wrote:I'd get him a glass of water against the splitting head ache he'll be having

I'll have you know that the fifth of the five precepts in Buddhism is Surā meraya majja pamādatthānā veramani sikkhāpadam samādiyāmi which roughly translates to "I will refrain from intoxicants which result in headlessness".

Obviously, Claudius has reached a state of supraconsciousness through vigorous meditation and his words are nothing less than pure humantruth. His talk of "fish from a fritter", "nasty boys" and the French should be carefully studied and we should all attempt to model our lives after them.

Vicsun, I was thinking exactly the same thing.

hey you folks aren't supposed to see through me Thanks for the energy drinks...

Now the fun is to retrace my steps and hope I didn't do too much damage. Glad I didn't give eulogy advice.

Vicsun, yes I made mistake. It made sense at the time. My apologies. It may not have been appropriate to the topic in good taste etc and I had no concept of a target audience.

Not that my posting is that great even when I am sober (sigh)

just an aside: I take courses in buddhism but I have never taken vows that I would uphold the precepts. I am a lay person and not a monk. I have not taken refuge in buddha dharma and sangha although all three are very close to my heart. Indeed I have a feeling of distress and grief from damaging that connection. Sure I can benefit from following the precepts. They are based on karma if I want to improve my lot I should follow them whether I have vowed or not.
sorry folks. I will just crawl off and die now

PS my post was not helpful. I am sorry I posted it on the forum. And interestingly it is revealing in me some confusion and attitudes that I wasn't aware. I knew I was confused but I didn't have these details. A 16 year old girl is probably not studying the paramitas. As a matter of fact those teachings are meant for a later stage of study I am just a beginner. Of course I am inspired by the idea of generosity etc but it has nothing to do with dating in the sense that I used it.

PPS my religion is not just for teachers who have the capacity to help people. Nor is it just for the highest functioning people. It is also for confused people like myself. If you are not confused and you have a kind heart you wouldn't need it.

Claudius, we LOVED your message. Please put it back!

but it makes me feel so icky. but glad from anothers view it is of some value. You can see it immortalized in Vicsun's post.

Damn, I missed all fun again!

Claudius, I think messages like that make SYM much more interesting and entertaining than, say, pompous crap. I really liked it (your message, not the pompous crap).

VonDondu, OF COURSE THE WHOLE DEBATE IS MORE THAN RIDICULOUS!!! :laugh: Silliness is the best part of it, if you ask me. I hope the mods are not going to ban me for trolling...

I am not even taking offence that nobody is willing to buy me an energy drink, even Vicsun.

Lady Dragonfly,

I thought the message I wrote while inebriated was pompous in a way. At least I was quite puffed up. Is that the pompous one? Or is it the rest of my posts? :speech:

edit: buys Lady Dragonfly an energy drink...just don't drink too many of these

Thanks for the drink . No, I did not mean your posts were pompous crap. I was talking about SYM in general when I said that messages like that make SYM more interesting.

What is this energy drink anyway? Does it... help?

Lady Dragonfly wrote: What is this energy drink anyway? Does it... help?

It cures insanity, hangover, insomnia, head ache and does not give energy!

Fiberfar wrote:It cures insanity, hangover, insomnia, head ache and does not give energy!

Back to wisdom perfection and apple sider (and little johnny) then.

How amusing, your avatar looks like me when I was a teenager

I'm sad I missed Claudius post

Lady Dragonfly wrote:CE, I am deeply saddened that you don't like such a wonderful Source of Enlightenment as the WHO.

Oh, I do - just not for precise definitions of terms, since the WHO usually use looser, overinclusive and more politically correct definitions due to their aim to please all cultures and nations.

You won

Ok, drinks on me!

Anyway, as I already said, I understand your reasoning. Please let me explain mine. If, by convention, adolescence covers the age up to 18-20 (to incorporate all definitions), and "young adult" term is somewhat officially accepted, at least in the US, to describe the 20-29 years old, your statement that 16 yrs old and 22 yrs old are "in the same young-adult age group" might be perceived as rather ambiguous.

That's how I understood your reasoning. I just picked up the hairsplitting because it don't really have the time and energy for any serious SYM-posting and since I don't enjoy "spamming" very much, I find silly serious discussions funny sometimes.

VonDondu] All of this wrote:
I don't remember either, and I'm also terribly sleep deprived so I am too lazy too read back.

Thanks for the energy drink, I need it!

C Elegans wrote:How amusing, your avatar looks like me when I was a teenager

You had pointed ears when you were a teenager? That IS amusing.

C Elegans wrote:I'm sad I missed Claudius post

Vicsun quoted Claudius's message--you can see it at the top of this page. It's really something, isn't it?

C Elegans wrote:Thanks for the energy drink, I need it!

My pleasure.

16 is not a "Young Woman"
16 is a dumb teenager barely out of puberty, trying to get laid just to feel good about herself.
16 is definatly not experienced enough to know exactly what she wants.
So a 22 year old in that situation would definatly take advantage of her lack of experience and immaturity. The right decision for him would be to throw away the number and never look back. He can have sex with women as long as he wants, but he should stick with his age group at the least. Even if they're not as easy to pick up as dumb teenagers at the mall, especially when you call yourself pickup king or whatever.