PC vs. PC battle for supremacy - ends speculation once and for all

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:45 pm

Originally posted by Pat Bou:
First for your information :
.

Now for your information..

Originally posted by WarlordTCK:
As you said me that AC -10 is the maximum
considered by the game, I've done the
following test :

Me : Level 19 Warrior
175 HP, 19 STR, 19 DEX, 19 CON, 19 INT,
8 WIS, 19 CHA (no cheats, just BIG luck )

Opponent : Keldorn Level 18
19 STR (belt of xxx giant str), gauntlets
of DEX + Sunray Sword (+2)

1st TEST : AC -12

20+2 --- Touch
19+2 --- Fail

2ond TEST : AC -10

18+2 --- Touch

As you see, the game considers AC < 10.

I also did the same test with AC -18,
but keldorn couldn't touch me. That's why
i tested with AC -12 only.

A also realized (with a help of DEX editor)
a battle between me and a 19 Level
Barbarian (Minsc )equipped with Flail of Ages and Protector of Eastheaven.
My man won, but was near death - 24 HP Left.

Best regards.
Waiting for your comments.

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
Minsc is a Ranger, not a barbarian. He doesn't get the extra hp, 20% resistance to weapons, nor the Rage ability (Enrage is weaker except vs Imprison and in some cases when your Str is already 25).

What other equipment did the characters have? (Helms, Boots, Armor, Belts, Gauntlets, etc) How many times did you run the duel?

I'll have to look at the AC question. This could completely change the 'best warrior' picture. Shields might actually be worth using.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 01-26-2001).]

Originally posted by WarlordTCK:
Nighthawk, please,
do you consider I'm fullish
at that point ? Testing barbarian
abilities using Minsc ?
I've just left the name - Minsc,
but I've modified all characteristics
with the help of Shadowkeeper.
Plus, I took a real Barbarian
(one of my friend's main character)
in order to copy ALL chars in detail.
By the way, have you ever noticed
that Shadowkeeper is not always a
good thing for testing ?
But I'll explain that another day.

Concerning armor class, this is
absolutely clear :

AC -12

20+2 - Touch
19+2 - Fail

AC -10

18+2 - Touch

This is The BEST prove you can find !
Don't need to test anymore.

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
Ok, I FINALLY got to look into this...

Despite whatever has been said by manuals, walkthroughs, etc...and what I have said myself, AC -10 is NOT the best AC in the game.

However, my tests seem to indicate that AC -20 INCLUDING modifiers (ex Slashing -3) is the best.

Attacker: Kensai/Theif w/ Dakkons: Thac0 -4, slashing attack.

Defender: Berzerker with various equipment giving various AC/slashing combinations.

AC -10 (slashing -2)
Expected ToHit: -4 - -12 = 8 Tested ToHit: 8
AC -12 (slashing -3)
Expected ToHit: -4 - -15 = 11 Tested ToHit: 11
AC -18 (slashing -3)
Expected ToHit: -4 - -21 = 17 Tested ToHit: 16

Anyone else want to test this and see if you can confirm it?

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 02-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Weasel (edited 02-28-2001).]

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:54 pm

Sorry, my fault here. I checked back the programming and the absolute number is -20. Don't know where I got that -10. I must be too tired (gee, that's the kind of thing I used to never forget!!!).

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:58 pm

@ Pat Bou:......No problem...this subject has been beaten to death.

I just looked in to see which side was winning this time...and I remember Nighthawk had put a lot of time in to this..

[This message has been edited by Weasel (edited 02-28-2001).]

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:26 pm

If you truly want to test each character against each character, then a standardised list of equipment of which can and can't be used must be enforced.

Personally, I'd like to see Staff of the Magi eliminated immediately and belts that give strengh not allowed by mages.

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:46 am

Originally posted by Vehemence:
If you truly want to test each character against each character, then a standardised list of equipment of which can and can't be used must be enforced.

Personally, I'd like to see Staff of the Magi eliminated immediately and belts that give strengh not allowed by mages.

I'm not sure why that would be fair...it would be like saying you want the holy avenger eliminated for paladins or celestial fury eliminated for stalkers or crom faeyr eliminated for fighers and clerics...Don't get me wrong i understand that the staff is extremly powerful but it is that way because it makes up for what a mage loses in physical endurance and ability to fight...this is such a classic stuff about explaining to people why spell casters sometimes have highly powerful magic items...the simple answer is because they NEED it while fighters don't.

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:47 am

Originally posted by Genesis:
Rowdin, I don't know if you've beaten the game yet...it doesn't sound like it but heres a challange for your paladin. Defeat irenicus in the final battle with just your paladin and his dispel magic...that is about as close as you will come to understanding what it would be like to fight a level 17 player controlled sorcerer...if you think that was tough imagine if he actually had someone controlling him.

I just want to add that i beat the game with my solo Undead hunter,normal difficulty,exp cap active.

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 03-01-2001).]

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:04 am

WELL DONE BILL .

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:45 am

Umm i don't think i said it couldnt be done..i just said it would give an idea of how hard it is to "fight" a high level spell caster.

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:48 am

Hello Rowdin,

Don't take it personnaly, but can you just please stop using caps? Caps means you are shouting (by netiquette). It is kind of rude to shout like you do, no?

PS : That is the problem with the internet... we have no means to understand the real meaning of everything that is said, unless we refer to the netiquette. Maybe you didn't know. That's all right!

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:52 am

That's what i am trying to say:Irenicus is very easy,because his AI is controlled by the computer.Although in hell you are not battling Irenicus but Irenicus+Slayer (should be considered fighter/mage).

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:38 pm

i did not know that pat, sorry one and all.
so i.ve decided to play a sorcerer what i want to know is what level game did you play,
and how much of the game did you do if you could tell me has i,ve only played on core rules i don't know what the other settings do. I do know its a matter of personal taste,
but if you play on anything less than core i don,t see the point in playing that is d&d after all. yours rowdin.

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 1:08 pm

When I soloed my sorceror, I left the difficulty to default, so I assume that it is the core rules.

Just send me an email at pat_bou@videotron.ca and I'll send back to you the sorceror's guide and the override to fix the staff of the magi and the ioun stones.

Don't be shy about this : 4 more people since this morning asked me for it and were served well in the hour they made their request, and I really think you should read my stuff as the first level are quite hard until you get decent spells (level 10 is where it breaks and the fun begin, at level 15 you just laught around, and at level 17 and staff of the magi, the game is a joke!)

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:51 pm

>hmm we could all speculate on how not being >able to pause would cause all kinds of >problems for a spell caster but i'm certain >with my staff and robe of vecna...remember >monks cannot detect improved invis...

Unless he's using the Book of Infinite Spells...which he probably would since he knows you'll have the staff.

i can merely walk a few paces away whip up cast sphere of chaos or teleport field...(here comes the monk barrelling at me)

Actually...here comes the monk throwing Protection from Magic on you. Now you have no magic, no stoneskins, can't go invis...what do you plan to do?

i grab my staff he cannot see me. (he goes stealth perhaps) i cast true sight (he comes barrelling towards me again) i grab my staff i'm invis (meanwhile teleport field or sphere of chaos are trying to get him) he desides not to right being desintegrated moved out of the sphere or chaos..i wait a sec let loose my spell trigger of 3 "lower resistance" at him his magic resistance drops from 90 to 39..(he come barrelling towards me again)

Assuming he didn't alread use a Protection from Magic scroll on you, he pops a potion of Protection from Magic and boosts his resistance back to 89 as he heads towards you.

he tries to hit quivering palm on his way (if hes lucky he lives though the sphere of chaos with his lowered magic resistance) I grab my staff he tries to run out of my spere of choas before he dies..I wait a sec, cast another sphere of chaos around myself...remember i cast really fast ...

But still only once a round and as long as you aren't invis you're vulnerable to PoM eliminating your ability to do anything but stand there and get pummelled.

i could go on but basically becos i can become invis at while and a monk has no way of detecting it he would lose since i can wither his magic resistance down and kill him with one finger of death spell. I'm not saying a monk could not win the fight but he would have to be really lucky

Since he's wearing the Cloak of Reflection I would recommend not using Finger of Death...but since you're wearing a Cloak of Reflection it wouldn't do anything except bounce back and forth forever.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:00 pm

Originally posted by Genesis:
It seems those would be sorcerer killers out there want to compare a player controlled sorcerer to the AI npc mages/liches/dragons that they battle during the game...er come on if the npcs actually used thier magic spells with intelligience...including those dragons...no class would be able to fight a lich or dragon at all...

Yes, but you do the same to the Monk.

BTW, thinking about this some more, Thieves really would be VERY, VERY nasty if they got some set-up time. Backstab is useless against Mages or smart Infinite Spells: True Sight equipped fighters, but those traps are nasty... The damage they do goes right through Stoneskin and my guess is 4 traps would inflict enough damage to kill just about any character...certainly any sorcerer. The sorcerer could spring them using summoned creatures, but it would make things tricky.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:07 pm

Originally posted by Pat Bou:
First for your information :

-10 AC is the absolute number. Even if lower than that, you get no more bonus. That is how the game is programmed.

Pat, this has been said over and over and everyone seems to believe it now. Even I did until WarlordTC came in and actually tested it. When he came back with results that said otherwise I did the testing myself: If there is an actual limit, it is AC -20, not AC -10.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:12 pm

Originally posted by Pat Bou:
As for another thing : please, PLEASE, everyone... do NOT consider the use of a scroll of protection vs magic in such a duel. There are only 2 such scrolls to be found in the game and these are too precious to be spent on a duel. This, and any level 9 scrolls should be forbidden. That is only fair.

You assume all the best equipment except the equipment that you don't like. They would be saved for exactly this duel since we are talking about a combat that makes Irenicus look weak all all the stops will be pulled out.

Leaving them out obviously tips the balance of power in favor of spellcasters and the Sorcerer is unquestionably the most powerful spell caster for a duel.

If you're going to ban those scrolls, I suggest you also ban the Staff of Magi and maybe the Cloak of Mirroring.

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:18 pm

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
Pat, this has been said over and over and everyone seems to believe it now. Even I did until WarlordTC came in and actually tested it. When he came back with results that said otherwise I did the testing myself: If there is an actual limit, it is AC -20, not AC -10.

I already said that.

About that scroll of protection vs. magic, I would guess 2 things :
- First the scroll was never designed to be cast at an ennemy. If it can, then it is a bug.
- Second, there are only 2 such scrolls in the whole game. PCs have better things to do with these 2 scrolls than to spend them in stupid duels. They should not be allowed.

As it was said in another post, the most interesting duels would be between naked characters, i.e. without any magical items. The outcome would be intersting and more wits would be in play.

But again, can we just stop talking about this and just play the game?

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:28 pm

Heh...it's fun to talk about it though. It would be even more fun if we could actually run the duels.

Without any magic items, I think I have to go with the Sorcerer. However, the Monks and Thieves would have pretty good changes against him.

Only magic users and thieves (traps) would have any chance against the monk. (Immunity).

Thieves could force a draw against anyone except magic users (including Inquisitor) and might pull off a win with their traps.

Barbarians could probably force a draw anyone except a monk due to higher speed.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 03-01-2001).]

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 7:39 pm

Only one prob with naked characters (no items) is that that's all well and good for a mage coz he relies on Magic. But the fighter needs armour swords etc etc because that's what they use. It'd be like comparing Daystar to Horrid Wilting.

My problem with the staff of the magi is it's invisibility capabilities. They're stupid. Just un-equip and re-equip and it's game over. It would be ok if it granted invis 3 times per day or something, but the way it is at the moment is just stupid. Like Pat Bou said, all you need is a level 17 sorcerer and staff of magi and the game is a joke. Seems kinda silly to me.

That's why either fix staff of magi, or don't have it at all. Crom fayr, celestial fury and Holy avenger are a lot more balanced than staf of magi.

grinder · Post by **grinder** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 12:20 am

All I can say is that every person can come up with a kick-ass character... any race, any class... with so much magic to had in BGII everyone is super-powerful. These characters talked about are so close in strength... what's the difference?

And to those of you who think they have the ultimate character (like anyone really cares) I'm sure you have all had some "bad luck" (poor dice roles) along the road to stardom and your character has died... (horror death from a stupid computer AI monster... yikes) So give your super-hero attitudes a rest.

Good tactics are (obviously)important, but when the chips are down you had better have a little luck on your side too

or even the best can fall..