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And in this post I will demonstrate the power of unsubstantiated statements, stated as if though they were fact:

Keline wrote:16 is not a "Young Woman"
16 is a dumb teenager barely out of puberty, trying to get laid just to feel good about herself.
16 is definatly not experienced enough to know exactly what she wants.
So a 22 year old in that situation would definatly take advantage of her lack of experience and immaturity.

16 is a young woman
16 is an intelligent and mature teenager, trying to get laid to live life to the fullest
16 is definitely experienced enough to know exactly what she wants
So a 22 year old in that situation would definitely not be able to take advantage of her due to her experience and maturity.

Keline, I won't argue with your assertion that "16 is a dumb teenager barely out of puberty, trying to get laid just to feel good about herself". I certainly didn't feel that way about myself when I was 16, but like I said, I won't argue with you about that point.

However, I wonder what makes you think that a 22-year-old guy is any more deserving of the right to do as he pleases than a 16-year-old? How are his reasons for having sex any different than a 16-year-old's? Why is he entitled to have sex whenever he wants? Just because he's an adult? I think you greatly overestimate the value of "maturity and experience". On the contrary, I think that people get worse as they get older. Their standards certainly have a way of becoming more lax. When they're young, they're more idealistic. But when they're older, idealism gives way to laziness, cynicism, a desire to be left alone to do as they please, and generally a lot more compromising of their own principles. Personally, I don't think that "mature adults" are any more "deserving" of their "right" to pursue pleasure than any teenager. But people take it for granted that adults have "rights", and people take it for granted that teenagers don't have the same rights, so people have a tendency to believe that's just the way things are. Not for any good reason, however.

Hmmm...
this thread has the fine beginnings of a pub...
*snaps fingers*
*bar stocked with energy drinks, cider, and sundry liquors materializes*
*couches, tables and chairs appear from thin air*


To add to the debate though, reading through these posts what seems to be emerging, at least to a degree, is that a number of us are basing our views on personal experience, and overall background.
I recall for myself that at 15/16, I did not like boys the same age as me.. Not because older guys were in cool bands, had long hair or anything like that..
(Well, OK, the leather jackets were kind of sexy...)
Simply, they were a lot more interesting to have a conversation with, and they'd outgrown the urge to create farting noises with their hands and armpits. Most of the women I've met have similar experiences to relate.

And yes, it is also the case, I think, that women at that age are beginning to explore their sexuality. I'll be blunt here, when a woman is sexually inexperienced, it is actually nice (and a lot less painful) when her partner knows what he is doing...

dragon wench wrote:Hmmm...
and they'd outgrown the urge to create farting noises with their hands and armpits.

You mean all those years of practice in school were for nothing.....:speech::laugh:

BlueSky wrote:You mean all those years of practice in school were for nothing.....:speech::laugh:

Indeed, I regret to tell you that practicing farting noises in the hopes of getting laid.. doesn't procure the desired result. All such endeavors and aspirations simply evaporate into thin air

dragon wench wrote:. All such endeavors and aspirations simply evaporate into thin air

Just like the sound effect itself....:laugh:

VonDondu wrote:Keline, I won't argue with your assertion that "16 is a dumb teenager barely out of puberty, trying to get laid just to feel good about herself". I certainly didn't feel that way about myself when I was 16, but like I said, I won't argue with you about that point.

When you were 16 ?! Honestly, do you really think we should let minors do everything they think they can do? You're giving them way too much credit here.

However, I wonder what makes you think that a 22-year-old guy is any more deserving of the right to do as he pleases than a 16-year-old?

His parents are no longer responsible for him. The only person responsible for him right now is he himself. I think that's a pretty solid reason right there.

I think you greatly overestimate the value of "maturity and experience".

On the contrary, the value maturity and experience can't possibly be overestimated.

Let's go through all the information we have, right?

She does not know his name.
She does not know where he lives.
She does not know his number.
Yet she would like to have sex with him, apparently completly ignorant of possible consequences. Is this the decision of someone who has experience or has put thought into it?
If she ends up pregnant, where will he be? Not within a hundred miles if he gets wind of it. Not within reach since she has no information about him.
Yet she wants his cock. If this is a mature young woman to you, fine. To me it's a dumb teenager. Definatly not someone who should bear children at this point.
Exactly stories like this are the reason we have an influx of underage mothers. Truely horrible sex ed (thanks to the neoconserfascists for that one), laws that ban the sales of contraception to minors on the one hand, Hollywood pumping out movies that tell you "get laid or be a loser" like American Pie, MTV broadcasting about no other subject than "hos" and whatnot on the other. So where exactly should she take the experience from you seem to believe she has?

Keline wrote: If she ends up pregnant, where will he be? Not within a hundred miles if he gets wind of it. Not within reach since she has no information about him.

Now *that* is a strawman argument if I ever heard one...
Who said anything about pregnancy? It's entirely possible that the girl in question actually knows something about contraception.
Equally, she may not. BUT, that is not the point, and bringing something like this into the discussion just so that you can find a way to easily shoot it down is hardly convincing.

@Bluesky,
Somehow those analogies seem to have a great deal of relevance

I guess you're right. Sex and Pregnancy are two completly unrelated things, sorry for bringing it up.

I do remember some boys who made farting noises. But there was plenty of variation. As I said in some of my posts, my theory is that girls like an older boy because it is kind of a mystique of older things being better. If you are hanging out with older people you must be cooler, right?

I will take your word on the sex thing. But remember (and this goes for the conversations too) that these 22 year olds are the exact same boys 6 years later. I suggest that their value as people was not learned in 6 years. Actually the girls just had a perception that boys their age were not right for them. And that is fine they can do what they want but it is just a perception.

insert humorous remark to lighten the mood...

Keline wrote:I guess you're right. Sex and Pregnancy are two completly unrelated things, sorry for bringing it up.

And you just did it again.
You are getting into potentiality, creating smokescreens and deliberately setting up hypothetical situations that are only tangentially related to the subject in question.

Claudius wrote:I do remember some boys who made farting noises. But there was plenty of variation. As I said in some of my posts, my theory is that girls like an older boy because it is kind of a mystique of older things being better. If you are hanging out with older people you must be cooler, right?

Claudius,
have you ever been a young woman? You are making a lot of assumptions here...
I grant you that for some girls in that age bracket there is a mystique and coolness factor involved. BUT, there are plenty of girls who just do not find their male peers very appealing; many are extremely immature.

Yes that sucks (or not ) for teen guys, and I can understand the frustration and resentment, but.. the reality is that many just do not make attractive sexual partners.

I will take your word on the sex thing. But remember (and this goes for the conversations too) that these 22 year olds are the exact same boys 6 years later. I suggest that their value as people was not learned in 6 years. Actually the girls just had a perception that boys their age were not right for them. And that is fine they can do what they want but it is just a perception.

What do you mean exactly? How can you know that the aforementioned guys do not learn their value as people in six years? On what are you basing your assertions?

Who are you to claim that said girls "just had a perception?"

Just for what it's worth, there were miles of differences between who I was at 16 and who I was at 22. Stating that someone is the same person at each age doesn't fit me or the friends I grew up with. I knew everything at 16, I was cocky, arrogant, had no clue who I was or wanted to be, and had very naive and superficial views of women and relationships in general.

I didn't get cooler or more mysterious as I got older. What I did do was grow up, mature, and generally get my act together. Looking back, I wouldn't date me at 16.

The thing is, when you're sixteen you don't have the experiences in relationships that you hopefully should have at 22. Everything is still kinda new and you're still feeling your way in romantic as well as platonic relationships. A lot of times you overcompensate for your lack of experience by puffing yourself up or trying to fit into a certain group. Maybe you try and be the bad boy, maybe you try to be the more sophisticated type who is above all that high school stuff by embracing different philosophies because it's different and sets you apart. But it's generally all faked at that age. You try to appear confident and secure in who you are because that's what you want to be, but how much experience does someone have who's sixteen, lives at home, has their parents pay the bills, and never has to worry much about handling the real world? You might work at that age, but it's not like the vast majority have to worry about house payments, light bills, phone bills, food bills, etc.

When you're 22, you have more things to draw on that turn that confidence and self assurance into the real deal. You don't have to fake it because you've been there, done that, if not totally at least in part. You even see it in college. Between the freshmen and sophmores alone I've noticed regularly a vast difference in priorities and social skills. Most freshmen still want to hold on to that high school mentality because it's familiar, but generally after a year they grow up quite a bit. There is a difference, and an extremely noticable one, between a guy who acts confident and one who truly is confident.

I think that's the main attraction for an older guy over a younger guy. Just the way they handle themselves makes them more attractive because you feel more like they are what they appear to be. Granted, that's not always the case, but for the most part I think people grow into themselves more by that age.

Keline wrote: Let's go through all the information we have, right?

She does not know his name.
She does not know where he lives.
She does not know his number.
Yet she would like to have sex with him, apparently completly ignorant of possible consequences. Is this the decision of someone who has experience or has put thought into it?
If she ends up pregnant, where will he be? Not within a hundred miles if he gets wind of it. Not within reach since she has no information about him.
Yet she wants his cock.

I met a girl lately and what you wrote here pretty much sums up what she knew about me and what expectations she had. She's 21. About pregnancy and all that, good thing I didn't give her my number, huh?

Keline wrote: If she ends up pregnant, where will he be?

Yeah well what if by going home with him she narrowly avoids certain death at the hands of pointless hypotheticals?

@ Bloodstalker, I am not saying you learn nothing in 6 years! I am just saying that the value of a human being is not measured in what you know. Yes its true. I don't disagree with what you have said really I am just trying to explain what I meant by my previous comment. -claudius

What do you mean exactly? How can you know that the aforementioned guys do not learn their value as people in six years? On what are you basing your assertions?

I guess what I am saying is that while it is possible that a girl perceives guys her own age as immature that actually a guy (and a girl) already automatically has value. They are flexible. Understanding (give and take), communication, honesty is something that you gain greater confidence in as you go on but it is a process of uncovering your heart rather than learning 'rules to please a woman'. You discover yourself. Teenage girls can do whatever they want. Thats their life. Plenty of teenage girls find meaningful relationships with guys their own age because they connect with that person. Not because that person has a certain image. By the way DW I am expressing my views. My perceptions. I am not speaking as if you are wrong and I am not contradicting you. I am just reacting to what I have read. I hope you take it as my point of view rather than a criticism.

Who are you to claim that said girls "just had a perception?"

I think I get what you are saying here... You think when I say that it is just a perception that it has no meaning. Wrong. That is not what I mean. I mean something to the effect of 'one man's junk is another man's treasure'. I guess this applies to one woman's immature twit is another woman's relevant interesting exciting lover.

Incidentally, I had a (teenage) girl grab the steering wheel of my car on a date once and jerk it. That wasn't a farting noise but it wasn't too smart either.

We all judge this situation according to our own age, experience, priorities, attitudes, moral choice etc.
I think, the main criterion should be legality. The 16 yrs old in question is apparently within her legal rights to have sex with ten pick-up artists at the same time, if she wishes so, because she lives in Ontario. Let her parents worry. Maybe they are OK with that.

My opinion, which is just a personal opinion based on my own experience, priorities, moral choice, and philosophy is irrelevant.
However, we are all entitled to our opinions. If somebody regards a girl like that as a “mature and intelligent teenager living her life to the fullest”, that is fine by me. I view her as a dumb floozy, not worthy of my time, and that should be just as fine.

A person can be dumb at any age, anyway. From my point of view, anybody who is not picky about choosing a lover is dumb. Anybody whose life’s main interest lies below waist is super dumb (in my perspective). Does not mean everybody has to share my opinion. My values and priorities are different, so what? Everybody else can go right ahead and live life to the fullest -- get laid by a stranger(s) and whatnot. To each his/her own.

It is just at certain age you become legally dumb. If you can be legally dumb at 16, so be it.

I mean something to the effect of 'one man's junk is another man's treasure'. I guess this applies to one woman's immature twit is another woman's relevant interesting exciting lover.

I completely agree.

I agree that the main creterion should be legality. However, an individual's personal opinion is also equally crucial. This is because not all laws are fair and logical. Take for example discriminatory laws (not necessarily in America, or any country for that matter).

So sometimes, it would be wiser to judge an issue or an event based on our common sense, which is basically derived from our personal opinion. Or, in this case, the opinion of the people in general.

Claudius wrote: By the way DW I am expressing my views. My perceptions. I am not speaking as if you are wrong and I am not contradicting you. I am just reacting to what I have read. I hope you take it as my point of view rather than a criticism.

Of course I just take it as your point of view
If I seemed a bit prickly before, it wasn't in any way intended to be personal. I suspect I was in a slightly bitchy mood earlier because it has rained heavily here for about two weeks straight. *sigh*

I think I get what you are saying here... You think when I say that it is just a perception that it has no meaning. Wrong. That is not what I mean. I mean something to the effect of 'one man's junk is another man's treasure'. I guess this applies to one woman's immature twit is another woman's relevant interesting exciting lover.

Fair enough, we all have different quirks and eccentricities

Incidentally, I had a (teenage) girl grab the steering wheel of my car on a date once and jerk it. That wasn't a farting noise but it wasn't too smart either.

Hey, I wasn't saying that all teenage girls are more mature than their male counterparts, now was I?

Keline wrote:When you were 16 ?! Honestly, do you really think we should let minors do everything they think they can do? You're giving them way too much credit here.

As I said, I didn't argue with your point about 16-year-olds. I didn't give them any "credit" at all. My question to you was something like yours: why do you think we should let 22-year-olds do everything they think they're entitled to do?

Keline wrote:His parents are no longer responsible for him. The only person responsible for him right now is he himself. I think that's a pretty solid reason right there.

If that's your answer to my question, then I don't think you've thought things through, as I explain below.

Keline wrote:If she ends up pregnant, where will he be? Not within a hundred miles if he gets wind of it. Not within reach since she has no information about him.

So now that his parents are no longer responsible for him and the only person responsible for him is himself, he feels no responsibility for a woman he has sex with or his own child. Are you really saying that such an irresponsible person deserves the right to do whatever he pleases?

Keline wrote:On the contrary, the value maturity and experience can't possibly be overestimated.

And yet it doesn't keep 22-year-olds from acting like irresponsible jerks. Pardon me if I don't feel compelled to place a high value on their "rights" or their so-called "maturity".