Is Religion a good thing or a bad thing?

[Fljotsdale]

Yes, I have my own interpretation of Bible...

I find the above response doesn't seem to quite tie in with a comment you made earlier in the thread:

I have two good friends who both have a gift of speaking in tongues... Both sing in a church band and several other plp in the band have the same gift.

They say, the feeling when they speak in tongues is magnificent and can't be described with words... they say that all the scars and pain they were holding in their harts was healed by Jesus... by his blood that was spilled on the cross.

They speak of a spiritual freedom, completely free from the world desires... they are happier, they smile more, they do not worry, they've become better students etc etc... they have changed for the better completely

This sounds to me as though you are definitely associated with a church and and/or specific sect of christianity that believes in and practices glossolalia - 'speaking in tongues', so what you are saying here is in line with the teaching of your church/faith, or at least the church/faith of your friends, rather than entirely your own ideas.
I am not saying I believe you to be lying, but I think you may have been evading the question that was asked of you! Why?

as every other person who reads Bible, will interpret things differently ... we are not clones, we do have our own opinions and different consciousness, so someone might find something offensive, while others are perfectly cool with it (for example; one doesn't like seeing and using magic in games, it disturbs him/her, while others are fine with it)... The problem begins when we think we are not breaking 10 comm., like having sex before marriage, lusting in heart and mind, stealing... etc (It is like when God said to Adam and Eve, you have every fruit tree at your disposal except just ONE; thousands and millions of trees with fruits are given to us, but just one is of the limits, same thing replies to sin)

Ummmm... you said we should not take the bible literally, yes? But you believe the story of Adam & Eve and the Tree of Knowledge? BTW, do you know which other special tree was to be found in the Garden?

I have never seen nor hear miracles that have happened, or are happening in other religions... but then again, someone with other religion can say the same thing for mine

How very true. And other religions - including non-christian religions - have many miracles too. Of course, since they are not miracles of your god, they must be perpetrated by the Devil. Funny that.

No, I am saying since he is not a Christian, he/she can't follow the commandments that are given to Christians ... but he/she is still bound to live the life of love (clean conscience and soul, good, kind, caring, giving, forgiving, ready to help everyone, doesn't judge, every life is precious to him/her etc etc etc etc) ... When i was in spiritual rehab, Franciscan minister spoke about Heaven. He said Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians everyone one of them are invited to Heaven. If a Muslim has their own beliefs and traditions and prayers, God respects them... but we all our bound to live the life of Love .. this is who we all are... we are created in Love by Love ... our heart wants it and it needs it and it wont settle down till it finds it in the God of Love. Since I am a Christian i am asked to try to obey God's will... I can't ask a Muslim to obey my rules, just as Muslim can't ask me to obey his

This is what I believe, but other Christians might interpret things differently .. we all may be right, but God respects our beliefs and He won't judge them, not ever

Hmmm. do you know what the bible says about that? Let me tell you:

"The things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God." (1st Corinthians 10:20)

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Ephesians 4:5)

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus." (1st Timothy 2:5)

"Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

I think the above are enough, though there are many more. The fact is, the bible - Jesus himself - says that ONLY followers of Christ are acceptable to God. Doesn't matter how good anyone else may be, they are unnacceptable to the bible god.

Everyone who follows the path of unconditional love is following the path of Jesus, no matter what religion they are... I've said it several times (reading between lines)

Indeed you have, but it just doesn't follow what the bible teaches.

Emm.. I never got the impression that I am trying to convert people .. If i was.. I am sorry ... If a person is on a path of true love, but different religion, there is no need to force him/her to any other religion .. that is my opinion... however others might say, If you are walking the path of true love, then come meet Jesus, cause there is no greater and purer Love then His!

No, I don't think you are trying to convert people; you are just expressing your beliefs, which this thread is encouraging everyone who reads it to do. Don't worry. You are doing fine.

[drazac]

I find the above response doesn't seem to quite tie in with a comment you made earlier in the thread

My friends and I, are not members of any sects. But if we make a division of different communities in Church, then my friends belong to Charismatic Church community. I, on the other hand, do not consider myself, at least no yet, the member of any Christian communities. I am... emm, an ordinary Christian. But I do spend time with my friends and go to Spiritual rehab with them, so I had a chance to witness some of the miracles that were happening there... Speaking in tongues is one of them, but not exclusively just it.

Ummmm... you said we should not take the bible literally, yes? But you believe the story of Adam & Eve and the Tree of Knowledge? BTW, do you know which other special tree was to be found in the Garden?

When i say "not literally", it means that sentences wrote in the Bible, do not apply to just one type of life situations. They apply to everything. Like, for example, when Jesus said (I am not writing exact words from Bible): "It will be very hard for wealthy man to go to Heaven!" This, literally means, that the way to Heaven is very hard for the people who are rich, cause they will most likely find their comfort in money. However, this could also mean: If a person is blessed with lots of gifts from God, like many talents and many spiritual gifts, the responsibilities of using those gifts, for that person, are much higher then for those who have only one gift. That person is considered a rich, however God expects and wants more from that person. Whether a person will accept this kind of responsibility is up to her/him.

Here is another one, again not exact words from Bible: Two persons, both hungry. One person enters the temple and sees the food that has been presented on the altar, to God. That person considers it is a sin for him/her to take the food (he/she believes it is a sin to take the food, then it really is a sin for that person) ... the other one sees the food but does NOT think it is a sin if he/she takes it (then it is not a sin for that person) ... however, if a second person takes the food from the altar, while the first person is watching. The first person MIGHT think: well, if he/she took it, then it seems I can took it too. Bible says it would still be a sin for the first person to take the food (cause he/she still BELIEVES it is a sin) , and it will be a sin for the second person to take the food IN FRONT OF THE FIRST PERSON.

We can interpret this story on many ways, and apply it to different life situations. Not just one

As for Adam and Eve, i do not remember the specifics. And once again, I wasn't quoting the Bible.

And other religions - including non-christian religions - have many miracles too. Of course, since they are not miracles of your god, they must be perpetrated by the Devil. Funny that.

Charismatic minister said: there are 3 types of healing: 1st; Holy Spirit 2nd; Love 3rd; Devil (Devil has an ability to heal, cause he is still an angel, well fallen angel, and he still possesses those gifts, however, the consequences of being healed by the devil are terrible -> those consequences will be shown on the persons soul). Catholic Church says, every healing that comes from some kind of energy (like bio energy, yoga, transcendental meditation etc) is from the Devil.

For the last part. If this really is true, that everyone who are not Christians (and even some so-called Christians, who do not follow the rules that God gave) will go to hell, then I do not wanna worship a god who punishes those who have different beliefs. It would mean, that some people who live in forsaken areas, who have never meet any religious people, not to mention Christians, nor they've heard or read the Word of God, are sentenced to everlasting death and pain, cause the ministers who's job is announcing the Word of God couldn't reach them.

For me, that leaves several explanations. First, the above said is not true, but then again, how can it not be true if it has been written in the Bible? One solution comes into my mind: Bible is written by the men's hand, but the Holy Spirit is the one who was guiding their hand. So either God made an mistake or men interpret His Words wrong. If God is perfection, and men are flawed, it is logical, and reasonable to assume that, it is we who are interpreting the Word of God wrong.

Second explanation, the above said is true. I DO NOT BELIEVE IT. This would defy and corrupt the meaning of the God of Love. It's like, He creates the life itself, but He chooses only few of us to be with him forever. He KNOWS the majority will go to hell and He still breathes the life into men so even more can go to hell to burn. It doesn't matter majority of people has never met our Lord, nor hear anything about him. So, if they haven't met Him, nor hear His word, how then are they supposed to convert to Christianity? So instead of inviting people to Him with the power of His Love, no, His sends a message of fear and slavery; "You will all go to Hell if you do not repent, and if you do not give me your life so I can do with it as I please." And what about the people who have devoted their lives to help others, to love others unconditionally, but have different religion beliefs. It doesn't matter, they are not Christians, therefor, tie them and throw them into the pit where they will forever cry and gnash their teeth. To me, this is just one of the tricks Satan does to pull people back from God, from Love. Putting fears into peoples hearts so they can run from the same Person that is supposed to save us from ourselves and the Devil.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Firstly, I would like to note how impressed I am @drazac at your willingness to put forward your beliefs in an open, considered and constructive way. For an open-topic forum on a Western RPG site Speak Your Mind can have some pretty rigorous debates between very well-informed people on controversial topics that can often feel like attacks on one's personal beliefs - we've had quite a few members of all faiths and political persuasions lose their temper and get banned on topics like this over the years - kudos to you sirrah.
That said, there are some small confusions I have regarding some fundamental points of Christianity that I would be most grateful if you - as a Christian - could clarify for me (a [url="http://www.venganza.org/"]Pastafarian[/url]).

I don't know what exactly do you mean... but its my fault since i haven't read anything except NT.

In NT, Jesus was liberating people from their sins, He healed them: cripples are walking, blind are seeing again, dead are brought back to life... He did good all his lifetime as a half God half human

You are entitled to have your own opinion =) ... i do not agree with it, but it is ok =) ... Bible is a heavy material to read, some understand it, others don't ... I just want you to reconsider, that there might be a chance that you've got some parts of the Bible wrong. As will I =)

Again, I applaud your willingness to engage in a discussion on what is clearly an important topic for you in a civil, respectful manner with people who plainly hold a vastly different opinion than yourself. I would humbly suggest, however, that you consider reading the Old Testament as well as the New, not just for the purposes of informed debate here but also for your own spiritual development and growth as a Christian - to further develop a more complete understanding of your chosen faith, in other words.

Yes i remember it from the movies... but, the image of a murdering God is not suited for the God of Love ... it just isn't ... so there must be some other explanation ...

There is a wonderful philosophical device called Ockham's Razor - once you're done with reading the Old Testament I heartily recommend looking into it. For me, I cannot help but feel that you are privileging the way you think things should be with the way they actually are - sadly, while Should/Would/Could are all often far more noble than Is, only Is is the way things really are.
It's basically the difference between good intentions and good actions.

I haven't wrote the exact writing that was in Bible... the point is that God gave His Son to pay the price for OUR sins ... and we know what happened to Jesus

I'm a little confused on this one - why would an all-loving, omnipotent God have His only son brutally tortured and killed as a scapegoat for His imperfect creations' inability to perfectly follow the moral code He Himself set down, when it would surely be more loving to simply forgive them without the familial butchery?
This is, really, the central point of Christianity to my limited understanding - Jesus' blood sacrifice for the sins of mankind - and yet to me it just seems unnecessarily cruel, even outright sadistic.

[drazac]

I bought my Jerusalem Bible 7 months ago. I didn't had a chance to read it all, cause I'm not reading like 50 pages per day, its more like 1-2. Sometimes I read just one paragraph in it, and sometimes there are days I skip it.

I am aware of the issues regarding the some events that have occurred in OT. Like the Great flood, where God said to Noah to build the Arc so his family alone can survive, while the rest of population will die. (I am not quoting the exact words from the Bible)

This indeed describes that God is a mass murdered, however, like i've said, Bible is not meant to be taken literally, so I am willing to find another explanation, cause God of Love doesn't have blood on his hands. If He does, then He is not merciful and loving; He is vengeful and hating

The punishment for a sin is death. God is merciful, but He is also righteous. This means the price of a sin NEEDS to be paid. If we, men, are meant to pay the price for our sins, we all will end up in hell, forever. God couldn't let this happen, cause He loved and still loves us so much, so He sent His only Son to pay the price for our sins.

[Revan1993]

The punishment for a sin is death. God is merciful, but He is also righteous. This means the price of a sin NEEDS to be paid. If we, men, are meant to pay the price for our sins, we all will end up in hell, forever. God couldn't let this happen, cause He loved and still loves us so much, so He sent His only Son to pay the price for our sins.

Now if Jesus "paid the price," then why do we still sin, and does God still sends natural disasters to punish us? :speech:

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

All praise His Noodly Goodness...RAmen.

I bought my Jerusalem Bible 7 months ago. I didn't had a chance to read it all, cause I'm not reading like 50 pages per day, its more like 1-2. Sometimes I read just one paragraph in it, and sometimes there are days I skip it.

Fair enough, though the OT has most of the best bits IMO. It is a pretty hard slog at parts - you might have better luck trying it on tape.

This indeed describes that God is a mass murdered, however, like i've said, Bible is not meant to be taken literally, so I am willing to find another explanation, cause God of Love doesn't have blood on his hands. If He does, then He is not merciful and loving; He is vengeful and hating

Erm, is this the same God who sent His Son Jesus down to be tortured and killed for the sins of mankind (and all the other stuff Fljotsy and co. have already mentioned, and all the rest of the OT etc etc)? 'Cos this is the bit that always confuses me - that really sounds nasty. If I was God I'd just be all like "I'm sick of most of you guys: clearly I had way too high expectations of most of you here. But hey, I'm a reasonable God - everyone who does right by Me gets to party down with me in Heaven, everyone else just try to play nice, stay outta my beard, and we'll just leave each other alone". I mean, what's wrong with that?
But God has to go and pull some big deal with His only son being whipped and beaten and spat on and turned into a Mel Gibson movie...doesn't that sound kinda, I dunno, cruel to you?

The punishment for a sin is death. God is merciful, but He is also righteous. This means the price of a sin NEEDS to be paid.

2 things here: 1: Why (see above), and why does it have to be paid in such a torturiffic way..?

If we, men, are meant to pay the price for our sins, we all will end up in hell, forever. God couldn't let this happen, cause He loved and still loves us so much, so He sent His only Son to pay the price for our sins.

...and 2: Death is fair enough, but Hell isn't just death, according to the Bible it's eternal torture for anyone who doesn't believe in Jebus. I just can't reconcile that with the idea of an all-loving, merciful God, and yet by God's own holy book this is all stuff He's unapologetically done and will do. I mean, Saddam Hussein was pretty bad, but even he didn't torture people forever. The only conclusion I can come to is that if there is a God like the one in the Bible He's clearly not all-loving but is apathetic if we're lucky and an outright genocidal maniac if we're not.

I mean, if it was Bob who was doing stuff like this, I'd think Bob was an insecure, sociopathic, misogynist, authoritarian a**hole with major grudge issues, but God pulls all this stuff and is supposed to be better than us mere mortals - let alone a crazy mass murderer. What's the deal with that?

[Fljotsdale]

2: Death is fair enough, but Hell isn't just death, according to the Bible it's eternal torture for anyone who doesn't believe in Jebus. I just can't reconcile that with the idea of an all-loving, merciful God, and yet by God's own holy book this is all stuff He's unapologetically done and will do. I mean, Saddam Hussein was pretty bad, but even he didn't torture people forever. The only conclusion I can come to is that if there is a God like the one in the Bible He's clearly not all-loving but is apathetic if we're lucky and an outright genocidal maniac if we're not.

This is the most important part of your post, and Drazac - and anyone else - should note it carefully. Think: Even the worst person who ever lived - and I'm sure you can think of lots, Drazac (Ode to a Grsshopper mentioned one) - only lives and sins for a limited number of years. Say 115yrs max. Now, no matter HOW bad a person has been in his/her life, an ETERNITY of torment in Hell seems rather over the top so far as punishment goes. And it's a bit sadistic, as well.
However, there is hope. It is RELIGION that has come up with the Hell concept, not the bible. NOWHERE in the bible does it say people will suffer forever in hell after they die. In fact, the bible plainly says that the 'dead know nothing at all... there is neither pain nor suffering' (Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 10; Psalms 146: 4)

[Kristobal]

That said, there are some small confusions I have regarding some fundamental points of Christianity that I would be most grateful if you - as a Christian - could clarify for me (a [url="http://www.venganza.org/"]Pastafarian[/url]).

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? Whether you believe in it or not, Im sure it would help to at least clarify some things you might have questions on. As Im sure it would help anyone who has questions about Jesus Christ. I might be able to answer a few questions if you were to have any as well.

[fable]

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? Whether you believe in it or not, Im sure it would help to at least clarify some things you might have questions on. As Im sure it would help anyone who has questions about Jesus Christ. I might be able to answer a few questions if you were to have any as well.

What I think you mean is that it provides the answers you find work. It does not clarify; it confuses as much, if not more, than the bible. No written book clarifies. You can't put into writing direct experiential content, just rules and regs, stories, sayings, etc.

But if you want to discuss the Church of the Latter Day Saints, and some of their interesting policies and beliefs, by all means start up a thread for that purpose. We've had Mormons here before start up threads, but as soon as people start asking questions and citing the history of the Church and the religious teachings of its leaders, they've always vanished.

I'm reminded tangentially of a anecdote from an early book by Khalil Gibran, before he became convinced of his own greatness. Two demons are walking down the road in an area where one works. They notice a human digging alongside it, who rises, amazed, with something in his hands.

"You've slipped up," said the visiting demon, grinning. "He's found a piece of truth."

"Yes," replied the other, "and there will be a devil of a time as soon as he gets through organizing a following around it."

Make of that what you (meaning anyone who reads this) will.

[Fljotsdale]

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? Whether you believe in it or not, Im sure it would help to at least clarify some things you might have questions on. As Im sure it would help anyone who has questions about Jesus Christ. I might be able to answer a few questions if you were to have any as well.

You are obviously a Mormon, and I really do not wish to insult you, but honesty compels me to say that although I possess it and have read some of it, I found the style of writing both illiterate and imitative of the King James bible, both of which annoyed me too much to continue with it, even though I wanted to know what Mormons believed. I'm sorry.

However, it would be very interesting to get your viewpoint on the topics mentioned in this thread, so please feel free to enter into the discussion and to quote from Book of Mormon to make your points. The more different viewpoints there are, the better.

[Fljotsdale]

I'm reminded tangentially of a anecdote from an early book by Khalil Gibran, before he became convinced of his own greatness. Two demons are walking down the road in an area where one works. They notice a human digging alongside it, who rises, amazed, with something in his hands.

"You've slipped up," said the visiting demon, grinning. "He's found a piece of truth."

"Yes," replied the other, "and there will be a devil of a time as soon as he gets through organizing a following around it."

I've not read much of his stuff, and have not come across this before. I like it. A lot! :laugh:

Ah... and don't stop Kristobal joining in this thread, fable!

[Kristobal]

You are obviously a Mormon, and I really do not wish to insult you, but honesty compels me to say that although I possess it and have read some of it, I found the style of writing both illiterate and imitative of the King James bible, which annoyed me too much to continue with it, even though I wanted to know what Mormons believed. I'm sorry.

However, it would be very interesting to get your viewpoint on the topics mentioned in this thread, so please feel free to enter into the discussion and to quote from Book of Mormon to make your points. The more different viewpoints there are, the better.

Well I have started a thread about Mormons so if you want you can post in there any questions you have. Im sorry to hear however that you put the book down because of the language. I believe that part of the reason why it is written the way it is is because of the time period it was translated in. In my opinion, the Book of Mormon is easier to read, because it was translated into 19th century english, whereas the King James Bible was translated into 17th century english. I obviously dont know what translation you use.

[Fljotsdale]

Well I have started a thread about Mormons so if you want you can post in there any questions you have. Im sorry to hear however that you put the book down because of the language. I believe that part of the reason why it is written the way it is is because of the time period it was translated in. In my opinion, the Book of Mormon is easier to read, because it was translated into 19th century english, whereas the King James Bible was translated into 17th century english. I obviously dont know what translation you use.

I use several translations of the bible, Kristobal, because I find that different translators present the material in slightly different ways, due to the various shades of meaning the original-language words had, just as in English the words have various shades of meaning. (The word 'hit' in English, for example, has 3 major meanings - just shades of meaning, mainly depending on context, of course). So, in the bible, if you read different translations, you can get a rounded picture of the probable intention of the original writer.
However, my favourite translations are modern ones because modern translators now have a much greater knowledge of the original languages and can make a more accurate translation.
For my own interest I also have 2 different Greek/English interlinear translations of the New Testament, besides a Greek/English lexicon and an excellent concordance (VERY useful!), besides a number of commentaries on the scriptures. I used to be really into bible study.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? Whether you believe in it or not, Im sure it would help to at least clarify some things you might have questions on. As Im sure it would help anyone who has questions about Jesus Christ. I might be able to answer a few questions if you were to have any as well.

Nope, just the bog-standard King James I'm afraid and that was a fair few years back.
The most recent (serious) holy text I've read was the Qu'ran (which probably explains why I seem to remember Hell cropping up in the Bible), and I'm thinking of looking into the Tibetan Book of the Dead for my next religious reading foray.
That said, Mormonism is pretty interesting IMO, so I look forward to your thread.

[Fljotsdale]

Has everyone lost interest, or are we waiting for Kristobal?