Strange creatures

[Maharlika]

Hit it right in the head, DD.

I agree, there must be some other reasons to explain these "fantastic" creatures, places, phenomena other than the mere excuse that such reasons are only there for some convenient way to explain things. There are just some things that we are not bound to know --- YET.

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by fable
And dragons don't occur in European literature as creatures until after trade routes had been established with China. The first really heavy mention of dragons were in a series of pseudo-Chinese fairy tales crafted by French authors in the 18th century...

Originally posted by Waverly
I?m sure St. George would beg to differ with you. His story appears in Jacobus de Voragine?s accounting of the lives of saints in 1275, but the account also appears less formally in several different languages as early as the 5th century (St. George died in 303).

Earlier still, dragons appeared in Greek mythology as drakron. Both Jason and Hercules encounter them.

And yet earlier, the bible makes reference to dragons throughout the old testament and in revelations. Satan is able to take this form, and it is also the description of leviathan, the blind dragon Samael, and many lesser dragons.

Two of the board's knowledgeble gentlemen will of course clarify this appearantly conflicting information, but a question:

Is it possible that Fable is referring to the "modern" Western image of a dragon as a giant lizard who has wings and can fly, breath fire etc whereas Waverly is referring to the word "dragon", meaning "serpent" in Greek? The earliest concept of dragons I know of in Western mythology, is from the Greek legends Waverly mentions. IIRC, the description of dragons in Greek mythology are, like the word suggests, that of a large serpent. The biblical dragons, at least some of them, are also described as snakes. The idea of dragons seem to disappear for a long while in Europe, but they are again mentioned in Beowulf, and later, in the St George story, which I think is believed to be derived from Greek mythology.

Could it be that the image of what a dragon looked like, changed over the years and with cultural exchange? The ancient Chinese dragons came in many shapes, some could had wings and could fly. May the image of dragons - just like the image of elves did - have changed from just a big snake to the colourful, winged and fire breathing creature we think of today?

[Waverly]

Good question CE, here is the earliest graphic depiction I coulde find:
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/htdocs/bytype/ ... 000/74.JPG
Note that it is indeed a winged serpent. The date of this one is 1512, certainly not contemporary to the earliest accounts, but far earlier than the Chinese derived storied fable mentions. I think that there is no doubt that earlier descriptions of western dragons were of great serpents, but I don’t think this makes them something other than dragons.

The Chinese dragon is a different beast. It isn’t considered a creature of evil, and I’m not aware of any links to the Greek and Biblical dragons that gave rise to the Western myths.

Then we have Quetzalcoatl, the winged serpent of Aztec myths. I hope we can agree that while this too is a similar creature, it is unlikely to have been derivative of either Chinese or European dragons.

Unless these cultures all share some common memory now lost to the ages, it is likely a case of concurrent mythologies.

[C Elegans]

I wonder when the image of dragons, ie from mere serpent to flying and fire breating, changed in Europe?

As I said, I know virtually nothing about the dragon myth, but this is a dragon I know very well:
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-64205/StGeorge.html
This Swedish wooden sculpture of St George and the dragon was made in 1489. If you look closely, you can see the dragon has very tiny wings, decorative rather than made for flying, I would think.

The Chinese dragon, I belive, was a benevolent creature and is part of at least one of the Chinese creation myths. Babylonian mythology also fetures a dragon in the creation legend.

Quetzalcoatl I used to love that name when I was a kid. Since I don't believe in any sort of Jungian collective consciousness, I think the most likely explanation is that they are concurrent mythical elements - just like a large number of other mythical images that hold similar features in different cultures.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by C Elegans


Two of the board's knowledgeble gentlemen will of course clarify this appearantly conflicting information, but a question:

Is it possible that Fable is referring to the "modern" Western image of a dragon as a giant lizard who has wings and can fly, breath fire etc whereas Waverly is referring to the word "dragon", meaning "serpent" in Greek? The earliest concept of dragons I know of in Western mythology, is from the Greek legends Waverly mentions. IIRC, the description of dragons in Greek mythology are, like the word suggests, that of a large serpent. The biblical dragons, at least some of them, are also described as snakes. The idea of dragons seem to disappear for a long while in Europe, but they are again mentioned in Beowulf, and later, in the St George story, which I think is believed to be derived from Greek mythology.

Could it be that the image of what a dragon looked like, changed over the years and with cultural exchange? The ancient Chinese dragons came in many shapes, some could had wings and could fly. May the image of dragons - just like the image of elves did - have changed from just a big snake to the colourful, winged and fire breathing creature we think of today?

IIRC, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean dragons don't have wings, but can fly. The Eastern dragons are far more serpentine than the Western dragons as well. Also, not all Western dragons where the same. There is variation of Dragons from T-Rex-ish to four-legged to multi-headed dragons in various mythology. IIRC, the Hydra in Greek Mythology was a multi-headed dragon.

[Vivien]

Ned:
I would answer your response to my dragon joke, but I fear that taking this discussion from serious to silly is not what people want.

(Besides it's much more fun using dragon mind melds to get free things than going to some other plane)

[fable]

Originally posted by Waverly

I’m sure St. George would beg to differ with you. His story appears in Jacobus de Voragine’s accounting of the lives of saints in 1275, but the account also appears less formally in several different languages as early as the 5th century (St. George died in 303).

Earlier still, dragons appeared in Greek mythology as drakron. Both Jason and Hercules encounter them.

And yet earlier, the bible makes reference to dragons throughout the old testament and in revelations. Satan is able to take this form, and it is also the description of leviathan, the blind dragon Samael, and many lesser dragons.

You speak with a fair amount of authority, Fable. You should be more careful not to mislead people with off the cuff, but wholly incorrect statements.

And you might read what I wrote a bit more carefully:

And dragons don't occur in European literature as creatures until after trade routes had been established with China. The first really heavy mention of dragons were in a series...

As creatures. The dragon of St. George and its slaying is allegorical, and represents a mix of two legends, one drawing upon a professional soldier who tore down an edict of the Emperor Diocletian's against Christians, and the other from Perseus, Andromeda and the Kraken. Now, in its original, Greek form, the Kraken is a sea serpent, not a dragon: it is huge and reptilian, but it does not fly or breathe fire; so it's a huge sea monster, probably spawned by sailors long before the Greeks who feared what lay out of reach of the shore, long before the skies were discovered as a source of navigational tools. The story spread into Europe, but didn't originate there, nor was the dragon seen in European medieval literature as a creature (which was my point), but as an allegory for temptation--and sometimes, for the Ottoman Empire, which was such a threat in Europe from the 9th century through the 17th. (Today, it's hard for people to realize that both China and Islam constituted more technologically and culturally developed civilizations than Europe during the Middle Ages. The Ottomans actually conquered all of Spain and much of Central Europe from Hungary southwards.)

You also neglected to mention dragons in late medieval European alchemical literature; and the origin here was in the Mid-East, where it was meant to represent various things including the element of sulphur, the act of drying, and the male principle. Note that both these mentions, alchemy and St George (particularly the alchemical texts--the word "al-chem" itself is Arabian in origin, and also gave us the word "chemistry") occur increasingly after extended contact with the Islamic Empire, through the attempts by the Ottomans to take France, and during the several Crusades. The most important alchemical treatises to circulate within and stimulate medieval Europe were by two eminent Persian physicians, the 10th century al-Razi and the 11th century Avicenna.

The bible is not a product of European literature. It subsequently became very important within European thought many hundreds of years after it was written, but its images, syntax, language, grammar, and cultural context are Mid-Eastern, with strong influences from the Orient. And even today, I believe Israel isn't up for inclusion in the European Union.

[Waverly]

Fable:
As creatures. The dragon of St. George and its slaying is allegorical, and represents a mix of two legends, one drawing upon a professional soldier who tore down an edict of the Emperor Diocletian's against Christians, and the other from Perseus, Andromeda and the Kraken.

Um, Fable, are you trying to say that you were referring to specific flesh and blood creatures? I’m confused as to why you would rule out poor St. George because his dragon tale has no basis in fact. Are you going to regale me with stories of dragons whose origins are not myths or allegories or however you want to label them?

I think it’s pretty clear that people believed the stories of St. George and, at an earlier time, the Kraken to be documented history. I fail to understand the special circumstances you are pleading here that discount these stories and put the origin of the European dragon some 1400 years later and of Chinese pedigree.

I never said that the bible was of European origin. It does however factor heavily into European history. I’m not sure the fact that it was ported over and then adopted into the culture negates it’s effect on the European history, traditions, and culture.

[fable]

Originally posted by Der-draigen


So that must mean nothing ever will [/b]

@Der-draigen, that's a bit unfair, as a reply to my post. I think it was pretty evident I didn't mean that one should stop looking for evidence. This is what I wrote:

This isn't to say that unicorns, or people with faces pointing backwards, never existed. But merely because a bunch of books once quoted each other and the same, single ancient Roman or Greek reference, doesn't make it so. By that same token, the absence of evidence doesn't mean such creatures never existed. But a sound case for their existence really requires more than just a hope.

So I'm not suggesting you shouldn't cease to look, or cease to keep in mind the possibility of their existence. All I was saying is that hope doesn't constitute evidence, and that if you wish to convince others of this possibility, some evidence would help.

Want to talk science and academic integrity? I think science and academia should be open to the possibility that they don't know everything yet. When science closes itself off to the possibility of new discoveries....well, you get what happened to Galileo and folks like him

Not really too good an example. Galileo was an arrogant bas!ard who occasionally took theories from others without giving credit. He ignored other scientists when they couldn't do him any advantage, and approached them slavishly if they could. When the current Pope suggested that the Ptlomaic theory of planetary revolution (involving spheres) and earth-centrism could quite possibly stand alongside the solar theory and that both might be correct, seen from different vantage points, Galileo just had to write these remarks alongside highly sarcastic replies that were sent to scientists all over Europe. Of course, this was a slap in the face to the very people who had supported him--for Galileo did have the favor and support of the Church up until that moment. But he so angered and polarized the RCC that his ideas were subsequently rejected out of hand.

There's a fascinating book including a wealth of information on Galileo, Copernicus and Kepler entitled The Sleepwalkers, by Arthur Koestler. If you want to start a new topic on Galileo, I'll be glad to quote from the author's research into all three.

[fable]

Originally posted by Waverly

Um, Fable, are you trying to say that you were referring to specific flesh and blood creatures? I’m confused as to why you would rule out poor St. George because his dragon tale has no basis in fact. Are you going to regale me with stories of dragons whose origins are not myths or allegories or however you want to label them?

I meant that dragons in Euroepan medieval thought originated elsewhere than in Europe--so there were no "European dragons" developed on the continent as such, but Mid-Eastern/Asiatic imports. I'd suggest that the concept of dragons in Europe does not appear to support the theory that "a particular creature appearing spotaneously throughout world literature gives credence to its factual existence." In Europe, at least, dragons didn't simply arise in literature. Their lineage can be traced back to other sources, and to very specific reasons for import.

George's dragon was imported by religious orders to make a point: it was initially an allegory for temptation, when Christianity was being taught as a series of fairy tales to illiterate peasants whom the RCC refused to tutor in reading and writing (let alone provide their copies of the bible). So dragons weren't imported to Europe by people who believed them to be creatures, but people who saw them as means of explaining things about the inner nature of reality.

I never said that the bible was of European origin. It does however factor heavily into European history. I’m not sure the fact that it was ported over and then adopted into the culture negates it’s effect on the European history, traditions, and culture. [/QUOTE]

I agree with you, @Waverly. But you're recall, you challenged my statement that dragons don't occur regularly in European literature as creatures until after trade routes had been established with China. The influence of the bible (with its inclusion of dragon-like serpents) on latterday European literature doesn't negate my comment about the first major appearances of dragons within European literature. If you're looking for a major eruption of dragons in European literature, it doesn't mean Mid-Eastern literature, or American literature--but specifically that of Europe; and not a single mention, either, or an allegorical one, but a large mention in Europe where dragons are treated as entities separate from representing something else.

And that does take place in 18th century French pseudo-Chinese "folktales." Some of which are pretty damn good. The real influence of dragons on imagination in literature begins at this point, and picks up again during the Victorian Age. It's this "second era or draconian fiction" that we're still riding the crest of.

[Waverly]

Fable, I’m unclear on how far a concept needs to go back before you will agree that it has become part of the culture in question. Certainly ideas are borrowed, but that doesn’t preclude a uniquely European dragon appearing in literature even before the fall or Rome. George’s dragon doesn’t resemble the Chinese concept and only has passing similarities to the biblical variants. It has much more in common with Grendel and other western epics. What is more, for the story to have the impact it obviously did, the villain in the story must have already been a creature peasants of the time were familiar with. I’m surprised that at a point well over a millennia later, you still see Europe’s concept of dragons as not being uniquely their own. Doesn’t the entomology of the name itself suggest anything to you?

The greek drakron / draco myths predate the trade routes you mention, give rise to the name sake, and even predate Christ. Fer chrissake!

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by Waverly
Doesn?t the entomology of the name itself suggest anything to you?

Sorry about this nitpick(sp?), but I thought is was funny - entomology is the study of insects, whereas I'm sure Waverly means etymology, the history of a word.

@Fable and Wave: What about the Celtic dragon myth? Where do you think it has originated from? I also recall there are some mentioning of dragons in Medievial European literature that refers to much home antropomorh demon-kind creatures rather than serpent-like creatures. Seems like the concept of dragon has been representing in several different ways in Europe, although the serpent-like version seems to be the most persistant.

[Waverly]

CE:

I knew it didn't look correct, but since it is still a word, the spell checker blessed it.

[fable]

Originally posted by Waverly
Fable, I’m unclear on how far a concept needs to go back before you will agree that it has become part of the culture in question. Certainly ideas are borrowed, but that doesn’t preclude a uniquely European dragon appearing in literature even before the fall or Rome. George’s dragon doesn’t resemble the Chinese concept and only has passing similarities to the biblical variants. It has much more in common with Grendel and other western epics. What is more, for the story to have the impact it obviously did, the villain in the story must have already been a creature peasants of the time were familiar with. I’m surprised that at a point well over a millennia later, you still see Europe’s concept of dragons as not being uniquely their own. Doesn’t the entomology of the name itself suggest anything to you?

The greek drakron / draco myths predate the trade routes you mention, give rise to the name sake, and even predate Christ. Fer chrissake!

Those trade routes are much older than you indicate: we now have evidence showing that trade across the European and Asian continents was occuring as far back as 2000 BC; possibly earlier. There are Scandanavian instances of cut Oriental jade, and horn and leather work in China that has been tentatively assigned to the Bronze Age Viking culture. Of course, it goes further than that. Ethiopian gold has shown up in ancient Indonesian jewelry. The lure of distant places and products, as well as the possibility of forming political alliances, has meant a much smaller ancient world (much more in communications with its distant neighbors, that is) than we formerly thought. There were even ancient "superpower" coalitions betwen the likes of Egypt, China, and other nations, designed to keep a balance of power in the region. (On that note, I've got a rather amusing diplomatic missive sent by one of the Egyptians pharaohs to a leader of a relatively minor nation at the time who had dared to address him as an equal. He refers briefly to the superpower league in it. I'll have to find it, and post it.)

In any case, what I was discussing referred to the following partial post:

Take the dragon, for example. The dragon exists in so many diverse cultures throughout the world, I just don't buy that people in all those different places had the same idea. Know what I mean?

...And so I tried to show by way of example that European "dragons" did not necessarily spontaneously originate on their own, but probably derived from tales and lore that came out of China. I'm not saying this is 100% accurate, because this is delving into the remnants of history, and we can only work with what remains, and draw approximate conclusions. But Europe wasn't as isolated as we once thought; and dragons simply don't occur with frequency in European literature prior to the 18th century. There really aren't that many legends or tales that include dragons before that point--unless, as in St George's case, it is an allegorical beast meant to portray something else like anger, or anti-Christian forces such as the Ottoman Empire.

I haven't read Beowulf in more than twenty-five years. My recollection is that Grendel's not a dragon, and that Chinese dragons are much physically closer to the kind of thing in the extant retellings of the St. George legend. Could you refresh my memory on the nature of Grendel, his appearance, etc? Thanks.

On the other hand, it's also possible that the idea for Norse dragons in particular--Fafnir in the Volsunga Saga, and Nidhogg, who continually gnaws at the World Tree, Yggdrasil--derived from Oriental contacts. Like I said earlier, there *is* evidence of ancient contact between Asia and Northern Europe, but there's no method by which we can decisively prove this one way or the other. What we can say is that Europe wasn't isolated from Asia, and that European dragons, when they first caught popular imagination, appearing in countless tales, derived from deliberate imitations of Chinese folklore.

[fable]

Let me throw another possibility, wild as it is, into the mix of thoughts on legendary creatures. What if they did exist, but seldom on any level of phyiscal reality? What if they were primarily limited to other "planes or conditions of existence?"

This concept of differing planes is not too far from a prevailing religious interpretation. As Marlowe so astutely noted in his Doktor Faust, Hell is not necessarily a single place, put a condition of existence that travels with its denizens, wherever they may go. Ancient Greek initiates of various religious groups said they moved to other levels of reality after undergoing rites, which let them see or hear things that were normally beyond their understanding. Popular Islam adopted the pre-Islamic idea of fire elementals, Djinni, who were servants of Iblis (often identified with Shaitan, or Satan) and existed in their own pocket dimension--when they weren't consigned to bottles, lamps, and other objects by the great Sulieman the Wise (the Judeo-Christian King Solomon) under curses to serve those who freed them.

In more recent times, after the Greek concept of the Empedoclean Elements became a popular part of Renaissance "science," different creatures were attributed to each of four dimensions: earth, air, fire and water. The great sculptor and goldsmith Benvenuto Cellini writes in his Memoirs that his father once backhanded him across his face, to get him to remember something he saw: a salamander, a small fire-dimensional being, jumping in their fireplace, before vanishing. Of course, Cellini was also a large-scale liar when it suited his own interests.

So who is to say that dragons didn't manifest at a time when humanity had less hold over the world, and the links with other dimensions were less tenuous? That under the right conditions, creatures might move into our own reality--or possibly from our world, into another?

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by fable
Let me throw another possibility, wild as it is, into the mix of thoughts on legendary creatures. What if they did exist, but seldom on any level of phyiscal reality? What if they were primarily limited to other "planes or conditions of existence?"

This concept of differing planes is not too far from a prevailing religious interpretation. As Marlowe so astutely noted in his Doktor Faust, Hell is not necessarily a single place, put a condition of existence that travels with its denizens, wherever they may go. Ancient Greek initiates of various religious groups said they moved to other levels of reality after undergoing rites, which let them see or hear things that were normally beyond their understanding. Popular Islam adopted the pre-Islamic idea of fire elementals, Djinni, who were servants of Iblis (often identified with Shaitan, or Satan) and existed in their own pocket dimension--when they weren't consigned to bottles, lamps, and other objects by the great Sulieman the Wise (the Judeo-Christian King Solomon) under curses to serve those who freed them.

In more recent times, after the Greek concept of the Empedoclean Elements became a popular part of Renaissance "science," different creatures were attributed to each of four dimensions: earth, air, fire and water. The great sculptor and goldsmith Benvenuto Cellini writes in his Memoirs that his father once backhanded him across his face, to get him to remember something he saw: a salamander, a small fire-dimensional being, jumping in their fireplace, before vanishing. Of course, Cellini was also a large-scale liar when it suited his own interests.

So who is to say that dragons didn't manifest at a time when humanity had less hold over the world, and the links with other dimensions were more tenuous? That under the right conditions, creatures might move into our own reality--or possibly from our world, into another?

Hmm...fable, have you read the Acorna books by Anne McCaffrey? They've got a similar type idea with Unicorns, that they were from another planet and still exist on another planet far away from Earth. I don't remember the details of the 'history' mentioned in the Acorna books, though, so I can't elaborate.

[fable]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn


Hmm...fable, have you read the Acorna books by Anne McCaffrey? They've got a similar type idea with Unicorns, that they were from another planet and still exist on another planet far away from Earth. I don't remember the details of the 'history' mentioned in the Acorna books, though, so I can't elaborate.

Can't say I have, @Sailor Saturn, but I'll look for 'em. She's an interesting writer.

I forgot to mention Findhorn, an unusual experimental garden community begun 30 years ago in Britain (and still in existence), whose members regularly saw and claimed to have communed with earth spirits in their gardening efforts. Whether a person believes this or not, the results have been extraordinary: they regularly produced heads of lettuce that were more than 6' around, and other produce that was extraordinarily large, fresh, and bugfree.

I just checked: evidently, they now have a Findhorn Foundation going up on the net.

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by fable

I haven't read Beowulf in more than twenty-five years. My recollection is that Grendel's not a dragon, and that Chinese dragons are much physically closer to the kind of thing in the extant retellings of the St. George legend. Could you refresh my memory on the nature of Grendel, his appearance, etc? Thanks.

It was I who dragged Beowulf into this, but unfortunately my memories are only some 10 years freshers than yours - but no, it's not Grendel who is a dragon, it's in the end of the story. Isn't Grendel some kind of giant?

I really shouldn't be doing this out of memory, I'll look for some link, my copy of Beowulf unfortunately ceased to be many years ago.

In any case, it will most likely never be fully known how the dragon myth came to be and how the myth spread between various cultures as well as developing concurrently.

What about other extraordinary creatures? Anyone believes in the existance of mermaids, kraken or sea-serpents?

The Scaninavian dragons in old Norse mythology are more or less huge serpents, they can't fly and they have no fiery breath. One is the "Midgard-serpent", a huge sea-serpent that fathoms the oceans of the entire world. (Midgard is the world where humans live)

[C Elegans]

Beowulf

Here is a link to the full text:
http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html

In chap 33, the dragon is named as "dragon", "wyrmes" in Old English, and described as setting houses on flame with his fiery breath. Hm, interesting.

[Gwalchmai]

A good read!

May I say how nice it is to read a thread with plenty of serious discussion, a little contention, but good information content? I’m so glad this thread didn’t degenerate into name calling and hurt feelings. This hasn’t happened since Theological Quandaries, if I recall. Of course, this isn’t one of your more contentious topics, but my point remains.

And to top it off, we also had some hilarious entries by that amazing comedic team of Viven and Ned (you all noticed their posts, right?) Had me ROFL!