War Against Taleban(Afganistan).

[Delacroix]

12 days ago the media in Brazil translating USA reports say that there is no more Targets for Air Strikes.
So they change their plans.

Day 9- ONU striked.

Day 11- Jalalabad, an entire assentment striked. About 160 civilian dead.

Day 13- Cabul, Civilians Striked. Pentágon cofirm, 4 dead 8 hurted.

Day 16- Cabul, Unity of the Red Cross striked. Destroying clotes, food, and other suplys for Afgans civilians. 1 dead.

Day 17- Candahar- A vihicle with about 30 Afgans fleeing from the air strikes in the city of Chunai is hitted. All 30 civilians dead.

I don't know how the media is censored in USA. Do you see this notice in the news?

Ps: I don't believe in this amouth of "mistakes".

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Ivan Cavallazzi ]

[Quark]

I want to hear where you get your reports from.

I've heard similar things (through CNN and Ananova), not as many, but all news stories were started by the Taliban. Only one or two were actually confirmed by the Pentagon to have happened. Excuse me if I'm skeptic.

[fable]

@Ivan, with the exception of the report you mentioned that was confirmed, everything else remains only a case of "what the Taliban said." The Taliban has refused access to the areas of any of this strikes to the media. Under the circumstances, I would not reject them out of hand, but I personally cannot accept them as facts.

[Xandax]

In a war (almost any war) it is very hard to figure out the facts unless you are among the high ranking people involved.

A war will, in our time, revolve as much around PR and "information" as the actually waracts themself.

The goal for the Taleban is to make US look bad (ei. attacking civilians, religion war etc.) to break up the islamic countries support towards the US and thereby serverly interfere in the wareffort.
The US. goal - publicity, information wise, is to make sure that nobody belives in the information comming from Taleban.

Therefore much information emitting from Taleban would be questionalble, especially since they don't strike general populations as the most "honest" of people.
Futhermore the information emitting from US will not be trusted by thoese that are against them.

It is plausible that Taleban would bomb their own civilians and claim that it was the US.

Therefor take all (also CNN) information with a grain of salt, and try to decode the information.

As for the "information statements" - I've only heard about you "Day 13" and "Day 16" being confirmed.

The Taleban states that around 1000 civilians have been killed by US.

[Delacroix]

I want to remember you all that the USA media is censored.

Only the day 11 and 17 is from Taleban fonts. All other is confirmed bu the ONU. But the Day 17 and 11 what is not confirmed is who make the attack, it happens, the ONU don't know who make it. Who else is doing Air Strikes?

Another new(Confirmed by the ONU):
Day 24- USA army drop Fragmentations Bombs(Used to destroy tanks or entire troops) over an Vilage(don't know the exact word, is a place, where stay a comunity of civilians) adjacent of the city of Herat.
The Civilians alive in this Vilage are locked in home because of the high number of bombs that don't explode and still in the ground. In the attack one religious temple was destroyed too. Other problem is that these Fragmentation Bombs are of the same color of the Box with food droped few days ago.

Last monday- An hospital was striked. The pentagon version is that was an Asilum not an Hospital. Stephanie Bunker, from ONU said she was shocked with the Pentagon version: "Asilums don't exist in that part of the World"(Stephanie Bunker).

[NCT]

Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
<STRONG>I want to remember you all that the USA media is censored.

Only the day 11 and 17 is from Taleban fonts. All other is confirmed bu the ONU. But the Day 17 and 11 what is not confirmed is who make the attack, it happens, the ONU don't know who make it. Who else is doing Air Strikes?

Another new(Confirmed by the ONU):
Day 24- USA army drop Fragmentations Bombs(Used to destroy tanks or entire troops) over an Vilage(don't know the exact word, is a place, where stay a comunity of civilians) adjacent of the city of Herat.
The Civilians alive in this Vilage are locked in home because of the high number of bombs that don't explode and still in the ground. In the attack one religious temple was destroyed too. Other problem is that these Fragmentation Bombs are of the same color of the Box with food droped few days ago.

Last monday- An hospital was striked. The pentagon version is that was an Asilum not an Hospital. Stephanie Bunker, from ONU said she was shocked with the Pentagon version: "Asilums don't exist in that part of the World"(Stephanie Bunker).</STRONG>

I must say,I did not expect this sub.However,most of what you say is true,even the Red Cross offices were bombed last night,confirmed by their spokesman.Bear in mind,though,that any kind of war,with the
means at our disposal,will be destructive,more so since there is no front,especially against terrorists.Don't forget,also,that war is not only,bombs and bangs,it is a matter of correctly manipulating the TOTAL potential of everything at one's disposal.AXIOM:INFORMATION AND ITS USE IS THE RAW MATERIAL OF POWER.
BTW I have visited Brazil quite recently.Beautiful.

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
<STRONG>
Day 9- ONU striked.

Day 11- Jalalabad, an entire assentment striked. About 160 civilian dead.

Day 13- Cabul, Civilians Striked. Pentágon cofirm, 4 dead 8 hurted.

Day 16- Cabul, Unity of the Red Cross striked. Destroying clotes, food, and other suplys for Afgans civilians. 1 dead.

Day 17- Candahar- A vihicle with about 30 Afgans fleeing from the air strikes in the city of Chunai is hitted. All 30 civilians dead.

I don't know how the media is censored in USA. Do you see this notice in the news?
</STRONG>

I'm a European, and most of this is confirmed by the Red Cross, by Pentagon, by French media and other non-Taliban sources. Also, there are several eye witness accounts from refugees who have managed to cross the borders to Iran or Pakistan. I've seen such eye witness reports both in Swedish and British media.

posted by Quark:
<STRONG>all news stories were started by the Taliban

</STRONG>

This is not so. The Red Cross staff, refugees who hate the Talibans, a handful Western jounalists are not Talibans. Just because Pentagon doesn't confirm every report, doesn't mean it was false Taliban propaganda.
The Talibans have strong reasons to make the US look bad by reporting many civil casualites.
The coalition has strong reasons to look as good as possible, especially to keep the support from the Arab stats.

I think we will never know the real number of civilian deaths in this war.

There is this saying: "The first casuality in a war is truth".

Re the degree of US media being censored: I don't think US media is censored in the way the old Soviet Union media was censored, but in my experience, a lot of US media (CNN for instance) is heavily biased and some certain things are censored. No surprise, since all media is biased in some way. But different cultures and countries have different biases and types of censorship. That's why I recommend everybody to use several different sources of information, from different parts of the world.

[fable]

@CE, I cannot confirm this, but I believe the Red Cross was not in several of the strike zones Ivan listed, above. Perhaps we could get a little more depth from some source on these extremely blunt statements.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>There is this saying: "The first casuality in a war is truth".</STRONG>

"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" (In war the law falls silent.)
-Marcus Tullius Cicero, Pro Milone 11

A grim observation of an ugly truth made by a Roman statesman over two thousand years ago (52 B.C.) that still holds true today.

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>@CE, I cannot confirm this, but I believe the Red Cross was not in several of the strike zones Ivan listed, above. Perhaps we could get a little more depth from some source on these extremely blunt statements.</STRONG>

No, as far as I know the Red Cross has only confirmed the destruction of the 2 Red Cross buildings. I just listed the collective sources for the collective information, ie I did not mean every instance has confirmed every incidence. Both these, the 4 anti landmine people, and the village near Jalabad have been confirmed, but the number of deaths has not. Eyewitnesses interviewed by Swedish and British reportes tell about many people, also women and children, and thus indicate there was quite a few deaths though, although perhaps not at all as many as the Talibans claim. There has also been photos of a few dead children taken by a European reporter. The vehicle was, according to Swedish media, confirmed by French AFP, I think. The hospital hit and the fact that it was a hospitla, was also confirmed by independant sources, but again, not the number of actual causualites.

Information is scarce and so is reliablility.

[Delacroix]

By Fable:
@CE, I cannot confirm this, but I believe the Red Cross was not in several of the strike zones Ivan listed, above. Perhaps we could get a little more depth from some source on these extremely blunt statements.

Let me clarify, the fonts:

Day 9- Onu Striked- Of course, comfirmed by ONU.
Day 11- Jalalabad- An entire Vilage Strike-160 civilians dead. The Taliban permit a group of international reporters to Take pictures and notify the attack. Taliban say the attack come from the USA army. The Spokeman of the Pentagon say acusation is ridiculous.-Not Confirmed.
Day 13-Cabul- Civililian Striked. Confirmed by ONU.
Day 16- Red Cross Striked- Of course, Red Cross Comfirm.
Day 17- Caldahar, Vihicle with Civilians fleeing attacked, 30 dead- Confirmed by Taliban (not confirmed).

Day 24- USA army drop fragmentation bomb (used to destroy tanks) over civilian Vilage. Some of the bombs don't explode, and the alive civilians are locked.- Confirmed by ONU and the ONU suport make a oficial request to the USA army to teach how to disarm that kind of bomb.

This last one (day 24), I found the end.(O fim da picada.)

BTW- 70% of the Civilians in Urban area of afganistan flee, because of the USA attack, and so, the Members of the Taliban are going to the Urban Area, to put the USA army in this problematic situation.

Ps-1: Israel don't waste time. International Media look for somewhere else, they attack again.
Ps-2: IRA disarmment- don't know if you see- very very inteligent move.

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
<STRONG>Ps-1: Israel don't waste time. International Media look for somewhere else, they attack again.
Ps-2: IRA disarmment- don't know if you see- very very inteligent move.</STRONG>

I am extremely critical to Israels behaviour during the last 1.5 month.

About IRA: please expand on how you think, Ivan, I haven't read much about his.

[Quark]

At the time, all stories I had read had been mentioned as started by the Taliban.

Together you can get a good dose (but not entirely) of truth from Ananova and CNN, but at the time I read the stories there were different circumstances. Hell, I just read on Ananova that the Red Cross is PO'd at the US because of the second building - excuse me if I'm wrong, but aren't humans not perfect? Besides the point that those Red Cross buildings are supposed to be 100% evacuated (by choice of the Red Cross! An extreme rarity in their organization.)

[Delacroix]

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>
About IRA: please expand on how you think, Ivan, I haven't read much about his.</STRONG>

Before 11th september the peace negociation beetween the UK government and IRA was about to colapse. Ira was about to start terrorism again. Then the USA War against Terror begins. UK is totally adept to the War Against Terror. The world become more sensible to the terrorism question, any kind of terrorism is now observed with diferent eyes; IRA's representants perceive this. So, they reactivate the peace negociation. Saying they will start the desarmment process. The last estimatives say that IRA have about 1000 Kalashnikov, 12 rocketlauncher, 600 pistols, 2 ton of Semtex(explosives). The problem is that IRA can produce/buy this equipment again very fast, it is only a diplomatic manouver. Well made.

Posted by Quark:
Hell, I just read on Ananova that the Red Cross is PO'd at the US because of the second building - excuse me if I'm wrong, but aren't humans not perfect? Besides the point that those Red Cross buildings are supposed to be 100% evacuated (by choice of the Red Cross! An extreme rarity in their organization.)

You are saying that the attack that hit the Red Cross building was a mistake? Yes, it make sense. Why should someone hit the Red Cross building? there is no reason. It was a mistake. But dozens of Frag-bombs over a Civil area. Comom, was not a mistake, was a "Mistake".
About the Red Cross, their policy is to give help to the people who need help, I can't imagine other place for them now, why do you think it should be evacuated?
(@Quark, As you see in my signature, and in my post, I have some problems with English, so, sometimes I understand things wrong, if it happens I'm sorry).

[fable]

Ivan writes:
IRA's representants perceive this. So, they reactivate the peace negociation. Saying they will start the desarmment process. The last estimatives say that IRA have about 1000 Kalashnikov, 12 rocketlauncher, 600 pistols, 2 ton of Semtex(explosives). The problem is that IRA can produce/buy this equipment again very fast, it is only a diplomatic manouver. Well made.

I'm inclined to think the IRA is not engaging in a facesaving diplomatic scam, because that alone would certainly not convince the British military that they were serious, who in turn would convey their feelings of distrust to the Protestant Loyalist forces. And the more reasonable Orange parties are *not* inclined to look for some easy, cheap, ineffective solution. Their main leader is up for internal party elections this coming week. And they have to be skeptical and tough, or lose tremendous ground in national elections to Ian Paisley and his powerful radical faction, which wants to stop the peace process completely.

In other words, from my POV, all the cards are currently stacked against this being a mere shuffling of arms. As for replacements of arms, that's not going to prove easy, and that's why the IRA hesitated so long before making this offer. Their funds really have dried up significantly over the last couple of years; and in the wake of 11th September, they have to be especially careful.

At least that much good came out of the terrorist attacks in the US. A little peace somewhere, a little less tension, maybe a truce that will finally hold long enough to turn into a melding of two begrudgingly respectful partners. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Delacroix]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>I'm inclined to think the IRA is not engaging in a facesaving diplomatic scam, because that alone would certainly not convince the British military that they were serious, who in turn would convey their feelings of distrust to the Protestant Loyalist forces. And the more reasonable Orange parties are *not* inclined to look for some easy, cheap, ineffective solution. Their main leader is up for internal party elections this coming week. And they have to be skeptical and tough, or lose tremendous ground in national elections to Ian Paisley and his powerful radical faction, which wants to stop the peace process completely.

In other words, from my POV, all the cards are currently stacked against this being a mere shuffling of arms. As for replacements of arms, that's not going to prove easy, and that's why the IRA hesitated so long before making this offer. Their funds really have dried up significantly over the last couple of years; and in the wake of 11th September, they have to be especially careful.

At least that much good came out of the terrorist attacks in the US. A little peace somewhere, a little less tension, maybe a truce that will finally hold long enough to turn into a melding of two begrudgingly respectful partners. We'll just have to wait and see.</STRONG>

Hmm. I re-read my post, seems like the disarmment was just a fake joke. It isn't, as you point IRA will lost money in this process. OK, but it still a Diplomatic manuver, and is a manuver forced by the last terrorism incident, and to put David Trimble back to the North Ireland representation.
I know it is not a fake disarmment, but isn't totally true also, because extremist factions of the Anglican side say they will not obey Blair recomendation to "live the Guns", because they believe the IRA will attack soon.

[Yshania]

Posted by Fable -

At least that much good came out of the terrorist attacks in the US. A little peace somewhere, a little less tension, maybe a truce that will finally hold long enough to turn into a melding of two begrudgingly respectful partners. We'll just have to wait and see.

I am not so sure. Maybe I am just being cynical here, this political maneuvering has been going on for too many years. How many times was the IRA ceasefire threatened?

The troubles are now a way of life, maybe without the funding the bombing may stop in the UK - but the gulf is there between the communities in Northern Ireland. I personally feel that the IRA would not have been phased by the world's threat of war on terrorism

At the start of the school term, we saw footage of catholic girls being taken to school, they had to cross through a protestant area. The girls were screaming and crying at the abuse and stones being thrown at them by the crowds of protestants lining the street....

Now what kind of stubborn statement those catholic parents thought they were making I do not know, personally I would NOT have put my kids through that. Call it cowardice, but I would rather take the long route to school than have my eight year old daughter arrive there terrified and sobbing every day, and hating the protestants more...

[Weasel]

Originally posted by Quark:
<STRONG>At the time, all stories I had read had been mentioned as started by the Taliban.

Together you can get a good dose (but not entirely) of truth from Ananova and CNN, but at the time I read the stories there were different circumstances. Hell, I just read on Ananova that the Red Cross is PO'd at the US because of the second building - excuse me if I'm wrong, but aren't humans not perfect? Besides the point that those Red Cross buildings are supposed to be 100% evacuated (by choice of the Red Cross! An extreme rarity in their organization.)</STRONG>

I sat and watched CNN show the Red Cross Building that was hit....and wondered.

1.A building full of grain bags.

2.People starving.

3.Why was this building full of grain bags if the people are starving?

I know winter is coming, but to let people starve today so you can have food for tomorrow?

And the main question...Why have the food in a city the people are fleeing from? Wouldn't it be better to take the food to where the people are going?


I'm not a rich person, but I make what little donations I can to the Red Cross. After this...(depending on the reply I get back from the Red Cross) my little donations will go somewhere else.

[Quark]

Weasel, you think the Red Cross is bad? Try the US government. Those famous US Subsidies that help farmers survive? All they do with the grain they buy is stick it in a warehouse and let it rot.

I don't know if you should blame the Red Cross right now - after all, how often are they expected to evacuate? It doesn't happen often, so even they weren't prepared for it.

As for this theory that feeding starving people is good, anyone who thinks that should read Ishmael (by Daniel Quinn). A very simple statement is said in it:
Feed someone with imported food, they'll go have kids, which just creates a bigger food gap for the population.

Now, teach them better farming techniques and they might get somewhere (of course, Afghanistan is not the best farming region).

[Delacroix]

Originally posted by Quark:
<STRONG>A very simple statement is said in it:
Feed someone with imported food, they'll go have kids, which just creates a bigger food gap for the population.
</STRONG>

Sounds too much cold for me. We are talking about humans.

By Quark:

Now, teach them better farming techniques and they might get somewhere.

Not ever. Too much complicated world, so many variables. Not that easy.