How do you play an effective duelist?
How do you play an effective duelist?
I've always wanted to play a Three Muskateers type character and the Duelist seemed perfect for that - no armor, just lots of fancy footwork and even fancier swordplay. I have a human character that I moved up to 6th level fighter/1st level rogues before just recently switching him to Duelist right before going to stop the shipment of weapons in the Back Alley of Act 1. I eagerly took off my armor and shield, armed myself with my rapier and went into the alley thinking that I was going to see some fancy swashbuckling. Instead I got murdered. Normally, as a fighter, I had been carrying my party, doing most of the damage and barely losing any hit points thanks to my armor. Now as a duelist I was getting hit with every blow and barely scratching any foe before being knocked out of every single fight. I didn't make it a quarter of the way through any fight before getting knocked out. It was pathetic. Did I make a mistake in choosing duelist? Or is there something that I'm missing. Has anyone else run a duelist? Let me know your secret.
The big problem with duelist is that the parry skill does not work very well. I think you only get a number of parries equal to your number of attacks. And each round is divided to 3 segments.
That doesn't mean that duelist is useless.
A level 1 duelist only adds 1 AC to armor from intelligence. So at that point you wear armor.
A duelist should usually be a character with such high dexterity that they do not benefit from armor regardless. This has kind of a problematic synergy in that they don't get the benefit from precise strike with dual wielding while usually dexers make up for less damage by dual wielding and having more attacks.
A duelist can use a spear and get precise strike. It is a bug (if they haven't fixed it in a patch). So you do 1 1/2 strength damage AND precise strike.
monk works pretty good with duelist because monks don't wear armor anyway. Once you get +8 item to WIS, INT, and DEX then you begin to have higher armor.
a duelist works pretty good with shadowdancer because you already have dodge and mobility.
I recommend dex and no armor. Perhaps dual wielding. Take weapon specialization to get a little more damage. Even greater weapon specialization...
If you have don't have high dexterity I hope you have a saved game before becoming a duelist.
Specific to the campaign you can wait to drop armor until you have higher INT and DEX to justify it. When you make your transition if your still a little week have a caster buff you with: Barkskin, Cat's Grace, Fox's Insight, Stoneskin, etc.
The nice thing about your build is you can use able learner and have a high intelligence which duelist is happy with because the AC. Then you get 4 skill pts per duelist level which is high for a high BAB. You can be a skilled warrior with the rogue + able learner. Fighter supports duelist a lot too for the feats to add damage and AB.
I suggest Fighter 12 Rogue 1 Shadowdancer 2 Duelist 5
GWF weapon + GWS weapon
rogue skillset (use able learner) and 1d6 sneak
HIPS and Uncanny Dodge and darkvision/evasion
5 Canny defense and Precise Strike + hastelike ability
Edit:
Legitimate uses of duelist:
Extra AC
Tumble skill without losing BAB
That doesn't mean that duelist is useless.
A level 1 duelist only adds 1 AC to armor from intelligence. So at that point you wear armor.
A duelist should usually be a character with such high dexterity that they do not benefit from armor regardless. This has kind of a problematic synergy in that they don't get the benefit from precise strike with dual wielding while usually dexers make up for less damage by dual wielding and having more attacks.
A duelist can use a spear and get precise strike. It is a bug (if they haven't fixed it in a patch). So you do 1 1/2 strength damage AND precise strike.
monk works pretty good with duelist because monks don't wear armor anyway. Once you get +8 item to WIS, INT, and DEX then you begin to have higher armor.
a duelist works pretty good with shadowdancer because you already have dodge and mobility.
I recommend dex and no armor. Perhaps dual wielding. Take weapon specialization to get a little more damage. Even greater weapon specialization...
If you have don't have high dexterity I hope you have a saved game before becoming a duelist.
Specific to the campaign you can wait to drop armor until you have higher INT and DEX to justify it. When you make your transition if your still a little week have a caster buff you with: Barkskin, Cat's Grace, Fox's Insight, Stoneskin, etc.
The nice thing about your build is you can use able learner and have a high intelligence which duelist is happy with because the AC. Then you get 4 skill pts per duelist level which is high for a high BAB. You can be a skilled warrior with the rogue + able learner. Fighter supports duelist a lot too for the feats to add damage and AB.
I suggest Fighter 12 Rogue 1 Shadowdancer 2 Duelist 5
GWF weapon + GWS weapon
rogue skillset (use able learner) and 1d6 sneak
HIPS and Uncanny Dodge and darkvision/evasion
5 Canny defense and Precise Strike + hastelike ability
Edit:
Legitimate uses of duelist:
Extra AC
Tumble skill without losing BAB
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
I've never actually heard anybody having an "effective" duelist. I'm sure you can complete the game with it, but I doubt - somehow - it'll be utilizing the duelist skills much.
The duelist looks much more like a multiplayer and roleplaying class, then much else. In my view.
Otherwise, follow Claudius advice, it sounds good.
The duelist looks much more like a multiplayer and roleplaying class, then much else. In my view.
Otherwise, follow Claudius advice, it sounds good.
Insert signature here.
The dualist is *specifically* a "prestige class". I.E. its an ADD-ON class used to "flesh-out" some elements of a multi-class character.
It would be nice *if* it was a class unto itself (like some prestige classes), but it isn't (in large part to the broken implementation of parry).
The real benefit of this class is a HIGH BAB. In other words if you need to pump-up your medium or low BAB class character then this *might* be a solution for you. Additionally you have Intelligence as a modifier for AC which can be partially accommodated with intelligence modifier equipment. The combination suggests utility with a Wizard (because it has a low BAB and low AC).
The best combination I can think of would be a Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Dualist - single handed with a rapier. At epic levels you could add Combat Insight for additional damage. While Intelligence would be the dominant attribute, Dexterity would be a close secondary attribute. You would want to (in general, depending on other additional classes) strive for the Dualist BEFORE the Eldritch Knight to get the Dualist's MARTIAL WEAPON feat for "free" (that the Eldritch Knight requires). Note that you could also add a 4th class for additional variety.
EX.
(in order):Wizard 11, Palemaster 1, Dualist 1, Eldritch Knight 10, Dualist 7.
OR.. (if you want greater emphasis on melee),
(in order): Fighter 4, Wizard 5, Eldritch Knight 2, Dualist 5, Eldritch Knight 8, Dualist 5, Wizard 1.
It would be nice *if* it was a class unto itself (like some prestige classes), but it isn't (in large part to the broken implementation of parry).
The real benefit of this class is a HIGH BAB. In other words if you need to pump-up your medium or low BAB class character then this *might* be a solution for you. Additionally you have Intelligence as a modifier for AC which can be partially accommodated with intelligence modifier equipment. The combination suggests utility with a Wizard (because it has a low BAB and low AC).
The best combination I can think of would be a Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Dualist - single handed with a rapier. At epic levels you could add Combat Insight for additional damage. While Intelligence would be the dominant attribute, Dexterity would be a close secondary attribute. You would want to (in general, depending on other additional classes) strive for the Dualist BEFORE the Eldritch Knight to get the Dualist's MARTIAL WEAPON feat for "free" (that the Eldritch Knight requires). Note that you could also add a 4th class for additional variety.
EX.
(in order):Wizard 11, Palemaster 1, Dualist 1, Eldritch Knight 10, Dualist 7.
OR.. (if you want greater emphasis on melee),
(in order): Fighter 4, Wizard 5, Eldritch Knight 2, Dualist 5, Eldritch Knight 8, Dualist 5, Wizard 1.
Note:
This is what a working Dualist SHOULD be:
Swashbuckler - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki
That "Insightful Strike" would make this class potentially the highest (non-magical) attack number class available (..if the feat is incorporated and the class remains a High BAB class). Frankly though, that is exactly what a real dualist should be - i.e. an unbelievably skilled swordsman.
This is what a working Dualist SHOULD be:
Swashbuckler - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki
That "Insightful Strike" would make this class potentially the highest (non-magical) attack number class available (..if the feat is incorporated and the class remains a High BAB class). Frankly though, that is exactly what a real dualist should be - i.e. an unbelievably skilled swordsman.
Of course most Swashbucklers are going to take only 3 levels for insightful strike hehe
Swashbuckler 1
Swash 2
Swash 3
Wizard 1
Wizard 2
Wizard 3
Wizard 4
Wizard 5
EK 1
EK 2
EK 3
EK 4
EK 5
EK 6
EK 7
EK 8
EK 9
EK 10
Fighter 1
Fighter 2
Swashbuckler 1
Swash 2
Swash 3
Wizard 1
Wizard 2
Wizard 3
Wizard 4
Wizard 5
EK 1
EK 2
EK 3
EK 4
EK 5
EK 6
EK 7
EK 8
EK 9
EK 10
Fighter 1
Fighter 2
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Oh yeah!Claudius wrote:Of course most Swashbucklers are going to take only 3 levels for insightful strike hehe
And if the posted swashbuckler class structure is correct, they will likely not even be a "Dexterity" driven character (despite the intent).
Hmm, for an uber BAB:
Fighter 16, Swashbuckler 3, Sorcerer 1, RDD 10.. Earth Gensai (strength), add-on strength and intelligence modifiers. = :mischief:
Using a rapier LOL:laugh:
What about
Swash 3
Duelist 10
Rogue 3
Fighter 14
Air Genasi
INT 20 all stat increases to INT Great INT 3 +8 item to int = int 38
Combat Insight
Skillmonkey with Ok damage via Combat Insight EWS Rapier and Precise Strike
But SOZ only has so much xp (expecting 15 levels without extensive side quest)
Swash 3
Rogue 3
Fighter 8
Duelist X (or invisible blade)
What about
Swash 3
Duelist 10
Rogue 3
Fighter 14
Air Genasi
INT 20 all stat increases to INT Great INT 3 +8 item to int = int 38
Combat Insight
Skillmonkey with Ok damage via Combat Insight EWS Rapier and Precise Strike
But SOZ only has so much xp (expecting 15 levels without extensive side quest)
Swash 3
Rogue 3
Fighter 8
Duelist X (or invisible blade)
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Yeah, the uber BAB route doesn't do much for defense does it?
Frankly I'd be happy if they would just fix parry and make the Dualist really viable on its own.
I'd LOVE a good Dualist, Invisible Blade, Swashbuckler, Fighter - Max Dexterity and various parry feats, Dual-wielding Kukri's (caring less about any Precise Strike add. damage). THAT, along with spell resistance would round-out the character nicely against a few tough opponents (..and it should still do well against multiple low-level opponents with parry off).
Frankly I'd be happy if they would just fix parry and make the Dualist really viable on its own.
I'd LOVE a good Dualist, Invisible Blade, Swashbuckler, Fighter - Max Dexterity and various parry feats, Dual-wielding Kukri's (caring less about any Precise Strike add. damage). THAT, along with spell resistance would round-out the character nicely against a few tough opponents (..and it should still do well against multiple low-level opponents with parry off).
Here is the emphasis given to fixing parry:
"..We are pretty busy with the core workings of SoZ right now, so nothing has happened on this front, so far. I am hoping we can address this in a patch after SoZ is released, if not before."
The "nothing has happened on this front, so far" references fixing parry. SoZ is the new expansion pack due out around Christmas of 2008 (which hopefully will have something similar to the Swashbuckler class presented in the Wiki).
It looks as if fixing parry is pretty low priority.. *maybe* in 2009.
Neverwinter Nights: Parry Fixed !?
"..We are pretty busy with the core workings of SoZ right now, so nothing has happened on this front, so far. I am hoping we can address this in a patch after SoZ is released, if not before."
The "nothing has happened on this front, so far" references fixing parry. SoZ is the new expansion pack due out around Christmas of 2008 (which hopefully will have something similar to the Swashbuckler class presented in the Wiki).
It looks as if fixing parry is pretty low priority.. *maybe* in 2009.
Neverwinter Nights: Parry Fixed !?
Note that for those interested the Wiki has this to say about the parry bug:
"A bug occurs because of how the engine handles multiple attacks. It groups all of a character's attacks into three "flurries" made at the beginning, middle, and end of the round. If an attacker makes two attacks in the first "flurry", the parry check will not be made against the second attack. This issue has still not been fixed as of the 1.10 patch."
Parry - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki
The -5 cumulative riposte penalty per round was fixed.
"A bug occurs because of how the engine handles multiple attacks. It groups all of a character's attacks into three "flurries" made at the beginning, middle, and end of the round. If an attacker makes two attacks in the first "flurry", the parry check will not be made against the second attack. This issue has still not been fixed as of the 1.10 patch."
Parry - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki
The -5 cumulative riposte penalty per round was fixed.
Calr12,
If you are going into MoTB I can think of a duelist build that might be decent. duelists are dexers and 1 not too often used feat is improved whirlwind. You would need damage behind the build which would be provided by items, precise strike, EWS, and Combat Insight.
Air Genasi
Int 20 DEX 18 All stat increases to DEX
1 Rogue 1 Able Learner = you can be party rogue or load up on extra skills your choice
2 Fighter 1 Weapon Finnesse
3 Fighter 2 Weapon Focus Rapier, Dodge
4 Fighter 3
5 Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization Rapier
6 Fighter 5 Mobility
7 Fighter 6 Combat Expertise
8 Duelist 1
9 Duelist 2 Spring Attack
10 Duelist 3
11 Duelist 4
12 Duelist 5 Whirlwind Attack
13 Weapon Master 1
14 Weapon Master 2
15 Weapon Master 3 Blindfight
16 Weapon Master 4
17 Weapon Master 5
18 Fighter 7 Improved Critical Rapier (save a weapon enhancement)
19 Fighter 8 Greater Weapon Focus Rapier
20 Fighter 9
21 Fighter 10 Epic Prowess, Combat Insight
22 Fighter 11
23 Fighter 12 Greater Weapon Specialization Rapier, Improved Whirlwind
24 Weapon Master 6
25 Weapon Master 7 Epic Weapon Focus Rapier
26 Duelist 6
27 Duelist 7 Epic Weapon Specialization Rapier
28 Duelist 8
29 Duelist 9 Great DEX 1 = 26
30 Duelist 10
AB =
29 BAB + 12 DEX (with +8 item) + 4 Weapon Foci + 1 Epic Prowess +1 Weapon Master +7 Rapier
= 54 (when surrounded make attack on everyone at this AB within 10 feet)
Damage =
1d6 + 6 Weapon Specs +9 Combat Insight (with Item) (13-20) x3
+2d6 precise strike + 1d6 sneak + 2d6 flourish +7 enhancement +2 Adamantium + 5d6 fire + 5d6 electrical
Edit: could take something other than rogue such as cleric = 2 feats. Even take 17 dex and take imp whirlwind instead of great dex 1 and for the whirlwind slot take exposed weakness (water domain)
If you are going into MoTB I can think of a duelist build that might be decent. duelists are dexers and 1 not too often used feat is improved whirlwind. You would need damage behind the build which would be provided by items, precise strike, EWS, and Combat Insight.
Air Genasi
Int 20 DEX 18 All stat increases to DEX
1 Rogue 1 Able Learner = you can be party rogue or load up on extra skills your choice
2 Fighter 1 Weapon Finnesse
3 Fighter 2 Weapon Focus Rapier, Dodge
4 Fighter 3
5 Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization Rapier
6 Fighter 5 Mobility
7 Fighter 6 Combat Expertise
8 Duelist 1
9 Duelist 2 Spring Attack
10 Duelist 3
11 Duelist 4
12 Duelist 5 Whirlwind Attack
13 Weapon Master 1
14 Weapon Master 2
15 Weapon Master 3 Blindfight
16 Weapon Master 4
17 Weapon Master 5
18 Fighter 7 Improved Critical Rapier (save a weapon enhancement)
19 Fighter 8 Greater Weapon Focus Rapier
20 Fighter 9
21 Fighter 10 Epic Prowess, Combat Insight
22 Fighter 11
23 Fighter 12 Greater Weapon Specialization Rapier, Improved Whirlwind
24 Weapon Master 6
25 Weapon Master 7 Epic Weapon Focus Rapier
26 Duelist 6
27 Duelist 7 Epic Weapon Specialization Rapier
28 Duelist 8
29 Duelist 9 Great DEX 1 = 26
30 Duelist 10
AB =
29 BAB + 12 DEX (with +8 item) + 4 Weapon Foci + 1 Epic Prowess +1 Weapon Master +7 Rapier
= 54 (when surrounded make attack on everyone at this AB within 10 feet)
Damage =
1d6 + 6 Weapon Specs +9 Combat Insight (with Item) (13-20) x3
+2d6 precise strike + 1d6 sneak + 2d6 flourish +7 enhancement +2 Adamantium + 5d6 fire + 5d6 electrical
Edit: could take something other than rogue such as cleric = 2 feats. Even take 17 dex and take imp whirlwind instead of great dex 1 and for the whirlwind slot take exposed weakness (water domain)
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
You know, why not just go straight dex, wouldnt a Theif/Dual-Wield) ranger do well? And you even get an animal companion, well if you want to dual-wield rapiers.
If if I where playing dualist, I would try to shove the most dex in my charicter.
So that you can completly ignore the parry, and go with dexterity as your main form of keeping away from damage.
If if I where playing dualist, I would try to shove the most dex in my charicter.
So that you can completly ignore the parry, and go with dexterity as your main form of keeping away from damage.