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9 West Tea House

Anything goes... just keep it clean.
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thantor3
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9 West Tea House

Post by thantor3 »

Given the chaotic impact of recent events, I found myself wanting a place to hang out and discuss things with like-minded people. 9 West was the name of the psych unit I worked on for eight years. I learned more about myself and other people there than any other place I have ever spent time, including medical school. One of the things I learned there was that the holidays tend to intensify people's emotional state. People that are close to us tend to do unexpected and sometimes hurtful things. Speaking personally, I spent my fifth Christmas in an orphanage, which has had a lasting impact. Depending on what is happening in my life, I have not always been the most fun person to spend Christmas with. This being the first Christmas after Sept 11th, I'm sure this holiday season might be difficult for others.... and a place to process some of that might be helpful.

I tend to think of SYM as a community, one that has impressed me with its vitality and its willingness to reach out to others over the last several months. In that spirit, I wanted to create a space where information, thoughts, experiences, or whatever can be shared openly. A sort of community resource center, not to take the place of real life support and relationships, but perhaps to augment them in an appropriate way. I have a bit of background in mental health, so I will try to provide relevant information where I can. And if we need advice on really scary things, we can always ask Mr. Sleep. ;)

And before anyone asks me, I am sorry but I will not be able to comment on what exactly is going on with Weasel. I don't think there is a psychological category for that. :D

Since someone asked about it today, I thought it might be helpful to post something about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. A big topic -- here is a little introduction:

From the DSM IV:
"The essential features of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder is the development of characteristic symptoms following exposure to an extreme traumatic stressor involving direct personal experience of an event that involves actual or threatened death or serious injury, or other threat to one's physical integrity; or witnessing an event that involves death, injury, or a threat to another person; or learning about unexpected or violent death, serious harm, or threat of death or injury experienced by a family member or other close associate... Traumatic events that are experienced directly include, but are not limited to, military combat, violent personal assault, being kidnapped... severe automobile accidents, or being diagnosed with a life threatening illness."

Facts at a Glance
* An estimated 70 percent of adults in the United States have experienced a traumatic event at least once in their lives and up to 20 percent of these people go on to develop post traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD.

* An estimated 5 percent of Americans -- more than 13 million people -- have PTSD at any given time.

* Approximately 8 percent of all adults -- 1 of 13 people in this country -- will develop PTSD during their lifetime.

* An estimated 1 out of 10 women will get PTSD at some time in their lives. Women are about twice as likely as men to develop PTSD.

10 Ways to Recognize Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder
1) Re-experiencing the event through vivid memories or flash backs
2) Feeling “emotionally numb” or crying uncontrollably
3) Feeling overwhelmed by what would normally be considered everyday situations and diminished interest in performing normal tasks or pursuing usual interests
4) Erratic or impulsive behavior that shows poor judgment
5) Isolating oneself from family and friends and avoiding social situations
6) Relying increasingly on alcohol or drugs to get through the day
7) Feeling extremely moody, irritable, angry, suspicious or frightened
8) Having difficulty falling or staying asleep, sleeping too much and experiencing nightmares
9) Feeling guilty about surviving the event or being unable to solve the problem, change the event or prevent the disaster
10) Feeling fears and sense of doom about the future
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Post by Mr Sleep »

Originally posted by thantor3:
<STRONG>And if we need advice on really scary things, we can always ask Mr. Sleep. ;)
</STRONG>
*grabs little book of little horrors* :D

An interesting Sleepy fact for you. Every Christmas or Birthday i come down with an illness of some kind, it is the strangest thing. I can only think of about one celebration where i wasn't ill in some way :o So i always think of Christmas as a time i get ill :o
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
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Post by Darkpoet »

Something about the mind of Darkpoet. I hurt a lot of people the past couple of days. Not only that, some think that Kramor and I are the same person. We are not, ask Loner, because Kramor and Loner are getting married in May. (Sorry you two, things have to be cleared up)

First. I want to say I'm sorry, about what I did.

Second. Darkpoet was going to be dead on Monday.

This is part of a letter I wrote to someone, I concider a friend. But, after last night that friendship was blown to dust.

Look, I apologize for the crap I said last night. It wasn't right for me to do what I did.

Now, the reason I post the death of Darkpoet was. I was thinking of killing myself that day. Then I remembered what a stupid thing to do. Not only that, my father in law has my gun. Ever since I lost my three cousins, and going to ground zero to help out for a week end. It messed me up, I quit the fire Dept. I'm seeing a doctor twice a month. All I want to say is I'm sorry, for this bullsh!t. I don't want people to know I have problems, I didn't want to be a dumbsh!t. But, I did it and my brother was trying to clear things up. What is he suppose to say? Oh my weak assed brother was thinking of blowing his brains on the garage wall, but he changed his mind.

I have to give you credit, for not having a problems in your life. It must be nice. Not having to go to war and seeing friends getting blown away in a battle or killed in a training accident. Why don't you try being a Paramedic or a Firefighter? So you can experience the real life, not the life on tv. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't I don't know you that well. But, the same goes for me, you don't know me that well either. Only that I can take a joke and laugh at myself. But, when it comes to the brass tacks of it all. My nightmares don't end, who am I suppose to tell? You or someone else on the board?? I can talk to one person about it, but only so much. Because, then I seem to want sympathy from everyone, which I don't.

I know, everyone has things to deal with. But, some of them go to drugs, drinking or killing themselves. I'm trying to believe that I'm stronger than that. I don't hang out at the computer all day, well maybe I do, because of my job. I deleted my ICQ, because I seemed to be using it as a crutch. I probably sound pathetic, which I'm not.

Again I apologize, you are a good person and I wanted to let you know this. I don't hate you, I was just mad last night. I hope you, understand what I'm trying to say.

Have a good one.

Dp


Maybe, I should of sent everyone who I know well this letter. But, like I said I want no sympathy, this is a problem that I have to deal with. What I did was not a practical joke either. I am getting help, in fact I have been for five years. BTW Kramor did not know why I posted and he didn't know until now, I was thinking of killing myself. He was trying to calm things down, so give him a break. This was my doing, not his.

Again I apologize to everyone, from Buck on down.
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Post by Vivien »

*confused*
*hug*
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Post by Yshania »

I am sorry :(
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Post by scully1 »

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
<STRONG>(Sorry you two, things have to be cleared up)</STRONG>
No harm done, DP ;)
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Post by FudD »

i don't know you peeps....but i am trying..i have flocked to these boards because...#1 my current fav boards are dust, my clan is done and all the 30+ members have moved on leaving me with few to talk to. #2 you all seem like really open minded nice peeps from diffrent places and diffrent lives (thats the best peeps to interact with) #3 these boards are really active giving a lonely late nighter lot's to read...and when you get tired of reading boards there is always the game sections (btw this site is top notch)

now i have no idea why sumone would say things like "this guy you know just died.."
thats a really horrible thing to say but i suspect it comes from a need for attention, a reaching out...a call for help. Or maybe they are confused, lost and not in control of themselves....

many people deal with horrible things in life...i have many experiences myself that are more than ugly...and many peeps have had PTSD, for lots of earthlings it's part of everyday life. Living through a major bad event that leaves you crushed can ruin peeps for ever...but if you are able to look at that event and how it has change your world and then begin to understand what has happened and is happening...if your able to do that then the healing can start. Many peeps have heard this one..."what doesn't kill us makes us stronger"....but from personal experience i know that it is true. Losing a loved one, losing your home or job, getting crippled or contracting a deadly disease..all those thing ruin peeps everyday. If your a good person though and have a good heart/soul then i think you will heal...the pain goes away in time but the memories always remain. It's how you deal with those events that will make you the person you are tomarrow...for sum peeps events like that turns them into murders or rapests...for others they become Martin Luther Kings. And sum will go back to themselves, carrying a huge crutch with them for the rest of their life....thus not allowing themselves to heal 100%.

I myself have experienced lost love ones, a loss of house and belongings, betrayal of friends and tons of other negative things...but from that i learned about myself and my fellow man...and once i had healed i became a stronger healthier and more positive person in society. Those events have changed me...they have made me into a person who can find positivity in the worst situation...a person who can be hated and not hate back.

I think the ones who get affected the worst by a negative event are children. They may seem to heal faster and they may seem to forget faster but deep inside a childs scares will run deep....a five year old child who has lost his father will not think about blowing his brains out, most will not understand that dad is gone....but in the years to come those scares will open back up and possibly turn that child into a monster. They will hurt other peeps and end up in a place like prison. And usually this is because they never understood that dad is gone....

IMO before any human can start to heal or deal with stress or other lame thing they must understand the event and what is going on from that event. Why am i stressed? That's the only way i know of to then deal with and remove the stress. Maybe it helps sum to talk to others, even a profesional or maybe they just need lot's of time to themselves...but if that person never starts to understand what has happened then how can they ever heal?

anyways....that's my 2 cents on the subject so far
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Post by Nippy »

Although maybe not the best note, congratulations to Kramor and Loner, I wish you much happiness! :)

@ DP, I think some people who have not lost do not feel the same way as those who have. Although I did not lose anyone I feel I can feel your anguish. Sometimes things happen. We do things that are maybe not right or are not the best things to do but the past is the past, it must be stepped by. If you ever need to talk I know that someone will be here and I know that if you ever need to talk to me, I will be here.

Remeber DP that the world is a place full of mistakes, making one is just a course of learning...

Nippy aka Daniel
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Post by thantor3 »

I went to a lecture once by a spiritual teacher by the name of Ram Dass. He said something that evening that had a profound effect on me. He said: "There is so much pain... so much suffering in every human life. If you could but see it, it would make you weep... and it would fill you with compassion." I worked with a patient once who, to put it mildly, was challenging to care for. She was manipulative, hurtful, deceitful -- and I judge her for that. Until I found out that her parents had used her since the time she was three years old to make pornographic movies. The nature of pain, and the way a person deals with it, has as profound an impact on their psyche as the way they receive love. In fact, Joseph Campbell, the author of "Masks of God", assures us that love and pain always arise together. Or as Kahil Gilbran says, "When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy. When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight."


The following comes from Tony Salvatore, a man whose son committed suicide in 1996:

Penacide: A Name for the Beast

"Suicide" comes from two Latin roots, "sui" (of oneself) and "cidium" (a killing or slaying). This gives us the definition of suicide as the "deliberate or intentional killing of oneself." "Suicide" is inadequate. It omits the role of pain. There is a "killing of oneself," but it is a means to relieve what is seen as interminable pain. To paraphrase: It's the pain, stupid! That's what suicide is all about. Here's a better word for the process: PENACIDE

"Pena" is from the Latin "poena" (punishment or torment), the root of the word "pain." "Cide" is from "cedere" (to strike down). Penacide is "the killing of pain." It incorporates the reason, wanting to terminate one's pain. It eliminates the notion that "wanting to die" has anything to do with killing oneself. Penacide is not a kind of suicide. It's what causes the deaths recorded as suicides. It is the true name of the beast.
Copyright 1998, 1999 Tony Salvatore
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Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
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Post by scully1 »

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>An interesting Sleepy fact for you. Every Christmas or Birthday i come down with an illness of some kind, it is the strangest thing. I can only think of about one celebration where i wasn't ill in some way :o So i always think of Christmas as a time i get ill :o </STRONG>
There was a girl in my high school drama club who got laryngitis every single opening night, without fail.

I'm not trying to spam up the thread, I'm really just trying to add to the discussion :)
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Post by fable »

I had a good friend, a Wiccan, who committed suicide about twenty years ago. She was a very giving person, an regional actress down in Dallas, Texas with a husband and kid. Evidently, she wasn't able to keep her life in order well, and at one point, her husband left with the child.

I didn't see her for a while. When she finally showed up, she was rather brittle with full shields going, and I wasn't experienced enough at the time to see the problems or know how to get around them. I called a mutual friend about six months later, who told me about the suicide.

I think the suicide didn't bother me as an act. What bothered, what still bothers me, is the amount of negative feeling she must have had leading up to it. The vacuum she must have lived in beforehand. Such a thing takes a long time to disperse, and I am not at all convinced that death disperses it, either.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Post by Sailor Saturn »

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>An interesting Sleepy fact for you. Every Christmas or Birthday i come down with an illness of some kind, it is the strangest thing. I can only think of about one celebration where i wasn't ill in some way :o So i always think of Christmas as a time i get ill :o </STRONG>
heehee, I usually get ill every holiday, though that doesn't occur quite as often as it used to. :)
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Post by Mr Sleep »

Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>There was a girl in my high school drama club who got laryngitis every single opening night, without fail.</STRONG>
So it is stage fright then? :D
<STRONG>I'm not trying to spam up the thread, I'm really just trying to add to the discussion :) </STRONG>
Same here, it is a festive expereince of mine, it has been said it is like the holiday problem that so many full time workers have, they come back to work more stressed beause they have had to relax and then it all cataches up to them.
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
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Post by thantor3 »

Here are some thoughts on why there tends to be an increase incidence of illness around the holidays. Much of this has to do with the functioning of the immune system. The immune system is composed of the lymphatic vessels and organs( thymus, spleen, tonsils/adenoids and lymphnodes), white blood cells( lymphocytes, neutrophils, basophils, eosinophils, monocytes etc.), specialized cells residing in tissues are (macrophages, mast cells etc.) and specialized serum factors. The immune system's primary function is to protect the body against infection and the development of disease


Sugar
Eating an excess of simple carbohydrates has been called one of the single most destructive dietary habits of Western society. Diabetes, obesity, tooth decay, hypoglycemia, metabolic imbalances, and nutritional depletion have all been linked to eating too much sugar. Dr. John Yudkin, a British researcher, states that sucrose consumption is one of the leading causes of atherosclerosis and coronary heart disease. In his book, Sweet and Dangerous, (1972) Dr. Yudkin cited numerous examples in a variety of societies that showed that sugar was a more likely cause of heart disease than fat. The ingestion of 100gm portions of carbohydrates as glucose, fructose, sucrose, honey and orange juice all significantly reduced the ability of neutrophils to engulf and destroy bacteria. In contrast, the ingestion of 100gms of starch did not have this effect. ( Sanchez A, et al. Role of sugars in human neutrophilic phagocytosis. Am J Clin Nutr 1973 Nov;26(11):1180-4) These effects started less then 30 minutes after ingestion and lasted over 5 hours. Typically there was at least a fifty- percent reduction in neutrophil activity 2 hours after ingestion. Since neutrophils constitute 60-70 percent of the total circulating white blood cells, impairment of their activity leads to depressed immunity. Considering that the average American consumes 150gms of sucrose, plus other refined simple sugars each day, the inescapable conclusion is that most Americans have chronically depressed immune systems. It is clear, particularly during an infection, that the consumption of simple sugars, even in the form of fruit juice, is detrimental to the hosts immune status. Ingestion of simple sugars tends to increase during the holidays.

Stress
Many studies have clearly shown that stress, personality, attitude and emotion are the causative factors in many diseases. Reaction to stress is entirely individual, reinforcing the fact people differ significantly in their perceptions and responses to various events, this helps to account for the wide diversity of stress induced illnesses. Stress leads to suppression of immune function and leaves the host susceptible to infections, cancer and many other illnesses. Many of the effects of stress are mediated by the glucocorticoid hormone cortisol which is produced in the adrenal glands. Cortisol:

• Aids in metabolic control in times of stress
• Make amino acids available by catabolic breakdown of proteins
• Acts as a energy boost in the morning – giving the body more available blood
glucose, responsible for the diurnal rhythm of life

When under stress this hormone is essential, allowing all tissues except the brain to decrease their uptake of glucose. It does have an anti-inflammatory effect, which is why it has pharmaceutical applications. What is important to note here is that cortisol interacts with other hormones, such as estrogen, testosterone, and progesterone, and in a chronic situation can lead to disruption of hormone levels and unhealthy functioning of various organ systems. Stress tends to be elevated during the holidays.

Disruption of Sleep
Considering people spend almost one-third of their lives sleeping, one would think we would know what it takes to get a good night's sleep. That's not the case for millions of Americans. As many as forty million Americans are afflicted with more than 70 different types of sleep-related problems. There are many reasons for sleep disorders, including biological changes associated with aging or certain physical diseases, physical changes such as jet lag, occupational effects such as shift work and so on. During sleep, we usually pass through five phases: stages 1, 2, 3, 4, and REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. This is called our sleep architecture. If the progression of sleep through these dynamic stages is disrupted, it results in poor quality sleep. Since sleep and wakefulness are influenced by different neurotransmitter signals in the brain, foods and medicines that change the balance of these signals affect whether we feel alert or drowsy and how well we sleep. Caffeinated drinks such as coffee is one example of this. Heavy smokers often sleep very lightly and have reduced amounts of REM sleep. They also tend to wake up after 3 or 4 hours of sleep due to nicotine withdrawal. Many people who suffer from insomnia try to solve the problem with alcohol — the so-called night cap. While alcohol does help people fall into light sleep, it also robs them of REM and the deeper, more restorative stages of sleep.

Going back to the effects of stress, scientists have found increased blood levels of stress hormones in people with chronic insomnia, suggesting that these individuals suffer from sustained, round-the-clock hyperstimulation of the body's system for responding to stress. A recent research study found that the insomniacs with the highest degree of sleep disturbance secreted the highest amount of cortisol, particularly in the evening and nighttime hours. This means that insomniacs are experiencing hormonal changes in their bodies, which prevents them from sleeping. Increased production of stress hormones is likely to lead not only to depression, but also to high blood pressure, obesity and osteoporosis. ( Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism August 2001; 86:3787-3794)
During the holidays, people travel more, stay up later, and are more stressed, all of which negatively impacts sleep.

Nutrient Deficiencies
Big topic. Basically, the Standard American Diet (SAD) -- which is consumed in much of the Western world, does not contain the optimal amount of nutrients for healthy body function. There are numerous reasons for this. If you would like one, remember that the fast food industry is a multi-billion dollar business. They spend millions of dollars influencing your behavior. While it isn't a fast food, milk is an excellent example of this. The image of milk as a pure, healthy, necessary part of the diet is a farce. Milk is a problematic food at best that is not digested well by 3/4 of the world's population and is a major source of food allergies. Why do we think it is so great? Two words: Milk Lobby. Regardless, in my opinion, every adult eating a SAD diet should be on a high grade, hypoallergenic multi-vitamin. One way to tell a high grade multi from the rest of the garbage out there is to look on the label at the calcium (some vitamin formulations do not have calcium). If it says calcium carbonate, you are basically getting oyster shell. Very cheap, very hard to absorb. Better vitamins bind the calcium to protein carriers like citrate or aspartate to make the calcium more absorbable. During the holidays, or anytime really, nutrient deficiencies can weaken your immune system, which makes you more susceptible to getting sick.

Increased Exposure to Disease Vectors
This is easy to understand. During the holidays, you are in contact with more people. Thus you are exposed to more opportunities for exposure to various viruses and other contagions. If you have any of the above going on, and you will, your immune system is susceptible to infection. One good way to decrease your risk? Wash your hands often. Many incidents of cross-contamination are through touch vs airborne exposure.
Those who will play with kitties must expect to be scratched.

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Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
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Post by fable »

Dr. Yudkin cited numerous examples in a variety of societies that showed that sugar was a more likely cause of heart disease than fat.

Personal examples are no substitute for studies, and no studies demonstrate this. Are you sure he isn't confusing the consumption of refined white sugar with high blood sugar? High blood sugar levels make the walls of blood vessels thicker and less elastic, so that blood has a harder time passing through them--all of which can lead to cardiovascular problems.

The point is, a person without any diabetic problems can process a great deal of white sugar and still keep their blood sugar levels at a reasonable level. I am not suggesting that galloping sugar consumption is a good idea, but it certainly is not a more common cause of heart disease than fat. (Which is probably not a good way to put it, in any case, since "fat" is a generic term that can mean any number of positive and negative things.)
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Post by thantor3 »

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Personal examples are no substitute for studies, and no studies demonstrate this. Are you sure he isn't confusing the consumption of refined white sugar with high blood sugar? High blood sugar levels make the walls of blood vessels thicker and less elastic, so that blood has a harder time passing through them--all of which can lead to cardiovascular problems. </STRONG>
I think people like Yudkin, Atkins et. al. do not make clear distinction between consumption of refined white sugar and high blood sugar. That is because their theory is predicated in part of the activity of insulin. They believe that the consumption of carbohydrates, especially refined sugars and starches, exaggerates insulin production. This promotes fat storage and leads to insulin resistance, where the cells become insensitive to insulin delivery of glucose. Dr. Barry Sears (Zone Diet) contends that excess dietary fat is not the cause of our national epidemic of obesity. He believes that replacement of fat by carbohydrates has not been shown to reduce the risk of coronary heart disease, cancer or obesity. In his opinion, the cause of obesity is due to excess levels of the hormone insulin. While there is no credible evidence to support something like the Atkins Diet, IMO, there is research (see below) that suggests that dietary carbohydrate intake can be detrimental to cardiovascular health through its effects of LDL levels (e.g. "bad cholesterol"). For example, fructose appears to have a modest LDL-C-raising effect. In baboons, dietary fructose has been shown to promote atherosclerosis compared to other carbohydrates. This may be important because dietary fructose and high fructose corn syrup and total sugar have all increased in the average American diet in the last 30 years.

Another issue concerns glycosylation of tissue and organ protein in the body. Basically, when high levels of simple sugars are circulating in the body, they tend to attach (glycosylate) various somatic proteins like hemoglobin. It is thought that over time, these "glycosylated" proteins can become dysfunctional, leading to pathology, or unrecognizable to the immune system, triggering an autoimmune response. In the case of vascular tissue, this could contribute to arteriosclerosis. One research study found that fructose glycosylated hemoglobin 7 times faster than glucose.

My point here is not to necessarily disagree with you, since non-diabetic individuals can process a great deal of simple sugars while maintaining appropriate blood glucose levels. It is more to point out that we do not know the definitive etiology of cardiovascular disease, nor understand the long term effects of massive sugar consumption on the body over time. While I do not support diets like the Atkins diet, I also do not encourage people to continue with the Standard American diet either. While naturopathic medicine is very harsh on the consumption of sugar, Chinese medicine advises moderation or the "middle way" as the desired approach, which is closer to my perspective.

Research:
Kritchevisky D, Davidson LM, Kim HK, et al. Influence of type of carbohydrate on atherosclerosis in baboons fed semipurified diets plus 0.1% cholesterol. Am J Clin Nutr 1980;33:1869-87.
Swanson JE, Laine DC, Thomas W, Bantle JP. Metabolic effects of dietary fructose in healthy subjects. Am J Clin Nutr 1992;55:851-6.
Hallfrisch J,Reiser S, Prather ES, et al. Blood lipid distribution of hyperinsulinemic men consuming three levels of fructose. Am J Clin Nutr 1983;37:740-748.
Cohen JC, Schall R. Reassessing the effects of simple carbohydrates on the serum triglyceride responses to fat meals. Am J Clin Nutr 1988;48;1031-4.
Birchwood BL, Little JA, Antar MA, et al. Interrelationship between the kinds of dietary carbohydrate and fat in hyperlipoproteinemic patients. Part 2. Sucrose and starch with mixed saturated and polyunsaturated fat. Atherosclerosis 1970;11:183-90.
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Post by fable »

My point here is not to necessarily disagree with you, since non-diabetic individuals can process a great deal of simple sugars while maintaining appropriate blood glucose levels. It is more to point out that we do not know the definitive etiology of cardiovascular disease, nor understand the long term effects of massive sugar consumption on the body over time.

I agree, though I would respectfully point out that the two statements in your last sentence are not necessarily related in any fashion; nor has any evidence been established to show a relationship between sugar processed sugar consumption and cardiovascular disease. That being the case, I don't see why the two ideas should be joined.

While I do not support diets like the Atkins diet, I also do not encourage people to continue with the Standard American diet either.

Complete agreement. This really gets into another area entirely, and we might want to start up a thread about either American diets, or national diets in general.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Aleldar
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Post by Aleldar »

I agree, though I would respectfully point out that the two statements in your last sentence are not necessarily related in any fashion; nor has any evidence been established to show a relationship between sugar processed sugar consumption and cardiovascular disease. That being the case, I don't see why the two ideas should be joined.


Then you should talk to my mother, who has gone through two Quad heart surguries. Mostly by too much sugar, when she gets depressed. She heads to the candy.

One way of getting rid of fat, is drink water lots of it. Cut back on soda pop, coffee, beer, wine. Then stay away from fast food places, not good.

I said my part. You two can go back to arguing. :D :p
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fable
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Post by fable »

Then you should talk to my mother, who has gone through two Quad heart surguries. Mostly by too much sugar, when she gets depressed. She heads to the candy.

@Aledar, my sympathies are genuinely with you. But as I remarked above, examples and testimonies from individuals are worth a lot less in this (or any other) instance where causation of a disease is being established, instead of a good doubleblind study.

You also make it sound like this is a straight shot: sugar to cardiovascular disease. I might wonder instead if your mother has any additional behaviors and/or hereditary factors which might contribute to her problems: little exercise, smoking, a diet rich in red meats, use of so-called "bad" cooking oils, a preference for fried foods, etc. And could she be borderline diabetic? Like I said, there's been no direct link established between eating processed sugar, and cardiovascular disease.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Aleldar
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Post by Aleldar »

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Then you should talk to my mother, who has gone through two Quad heart surguries. Mostly by too much sugar, when she gets depressed. She heads to the candy.

@Aledar, my sympathies are genuinely with you. But as I remarked above, examples and testimonies from individuals are worth a lot less in this (or any other) instance where causation of a disease is being established, instead of a good doubleblind study.

You also make it sound like this is a straight shot: sugar to cardiovascular disease. I might wonder instead if your mother has any additional behaviors and/or hereditary factors which might contribute to her problems: little exercise, smoking, a diet rich in red meats, use of so-called "bad" cooking oils, a preference for fried foods, etc. And could she be borderline diabetic? Like I said, there's been no direct link established between eating processed sugar, and cardiovascular disease.</STRONG>

No smoking, little red meat, little exercise, hardly fried foods, uses olive oil for cooking.
*Beware!!!!*
*Has tendincies to lie and hurt*
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