Repairing: Excellent concept, flawed execution

patroklos · Post by **patroklos** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:59 am

Hello everybody.

Fallout3 is an amazing game, an absolute catastrophe for social life, for as long as you start playing there isn't any time for such trivial things...

I mean, it's Fallout, man!! Super Mutants, PipBoy, Big Guns...

...mmm Guns you say, and we all know that for guns to work as it should in games such as this they have to be in top notch condition and to do that you have to ...REPAIR them! Marvelous! Brilliant!! You could do that in Oblivion, in System Shock 2, even in Deus Ex (i think) and it was an essential part of the game world, giving it depth and credibility. Why not in this game, too? Well...

Ok, let's just say it straight out. Repairing as it is in Fallout 3 sucks. Big time.

I was unpleasantly surprised and extremely irritated to learn that in order to repair a minigun, for example - which in the game weighs, what, 20kg?- you need not a repairing kit or/and some scrap metal, but... another 20kg minigun!!! I mean, are they serious??? For crying out loud, what have they been thinking??

Why didn't they use repairing kits as in System Shock 2, so that in order to repair your gun/armor it is your skill that counts, not the availability of the singular weapon/armor you're looking to repair or your strength/carrying capacity?!? Oh, and, you know, your baseball hat (+1 perception) cannot be repaired with another simple hat (also +1 perception!!) 'cause, well, errr... they are... different?? :speech: WTF???

Now, let me say that I'm thrilled with this game. Really. But this repairing issue ruins my game experience. Especially in advanced levels, if you are not a melee fighter and so strength is not your priority (in my case is set to 6) then half the time you have to go back to your stash in order to patch things up. Simply unacceptable for a game this magnitude and class.

Any comments?

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:48 am

Actually, in my opinion the repair system is somewhat realistic. To be able to repair things, you need spare parts, right? So that's where the other similiar items come in question. If the replacement parts were replaced by "repairing kits", how would you explain where all the spare parts are coming from? Unless, of course, the one repair kit weights well over what you can carry, as one repairing kit must contain all the imaginable parts for every item which can be repaired. That's much further away from realistic than the current system.

Also, you don't need to repair all the things yourself. Pay for merchants to repair your things if you can't afford carrying all the stuff by yourself. Other good idea is not to carry every type of weapons with you, but instead perhaps one or two weapons and perhaps one similiar weapon for repairing purpose.

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:08 pm

I totaly agree with Kipi...the repairing system is quite realistic, although kind of
impractical...the situation is kind of different if you have a companion,I was loading him/her with the heavy stuff and I was curying a couple of small guns (you need to use a multitude of guns, because ammo can be scarce for one kind of gun).

SPOILER

My main problem comes up with the T-51 power armor and the Android's plasma rifle...I mean they are perfect in terms of durability when you are getting them
but this is gradually deteriorating and I can't seem to be able to restore them, because my repairing skill is not high enough.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:37 pm

'Repair' is a very useful skill. Very well implemented, IMO.

1) It makes item hoarding somewhat meaningful.
2) It makes the skill increase desirable - firstly, because you are able to repair stuff to a greater degree (important - the more damaged your weapons are the less effective they become), secondly, because you are able to craft better weapons using schematics.
3) The encumberance pain is alleviated - if you have two or more items of the same kind, you can combine them (and retain or even increase the combined value).

My main problem comes up with the T-51 power armor and the Android's plasma rifle...I mean they are perfect in terms of durability when you are getting them
but this is gradually deteriorating and I can't seem to be able to restore them, because my repairing skill is not high enough.

You can repair your odd items in a shop.

Actually, I think energy weapons in F3 are underwhelming which is not bad, come to think of it. In F1/F2 you basically stop using your small guns after you find a plasma gun. In F3, small guns skill is a good alternative. I made it through with various rifles (combat shotgun being my weapon of choice) and had lots of fun with them.

patroklos · Post by **patroklos** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:32 pm

Kipi, Elevoros & Lady Dragonfly thanks for posting. Some comments of my own on your thoughts:

When I'm referring to repairing kits as an alternative to what i perceive as a flawed execution of the repairing concept I'm not referring to spare parts but to the tools that keep a weapon in good condition. In the real world weapons do not degrade so fast and surely you don't break 2-3 other weapons down in order to fix one! So, having repairing tools + scrap metal (as spare parts alternative) you could easily repair everything everywhere. Or, another idea, instead of scrap metal there could have been 5 types of spare parts, one for each weapon category (melee, small guns, etc.).

Also, the way this game works in terms of repairing, well, it essentially strangles your combat options. You have to be a medium/close combat character because it's extremely rare to find a new sniper rifle or a scoped .44 so you can fix your damaged one. No repairing = no damage = useless weapon = no long range fighting. But if you had repairing kits then you could carry just those 2-3 weapons that suit your style. Then you could play sniper

And what about self made weapons? Aren't they made of parts? Why then can't you fix partially your schematics weapons with not all but some of those parts, why do you have to make a new one first just to dismantle it later at a bench to fix your broken one? Come on people, it's self-contradictory and it doesn't make any sense.

Lady Dragonfly wrote:

1) It makes item hoarding somewhat meaningful.
2) It makes the skill increase desirable - firstly, because you are able to repair stuff to a greater degree (important - the more damaged your weapons are the less effective they become), secondly, because you are able to craft better weapons using schematics.
3) The encumberance pain is alleviated - if you have two or more items of the same kind, you can combine them (and retain or even increase the combined value).

1)But the constant back and forth takes away from the immersiveness of the game
2)Totally agree on that, but that is the concept of the repairing skill, not the execution
3)Provided you find the weapon. I'm lvl 20, explored 1/3 of the world and have found just 1 gatling minigun, maybe 10 or less sniper rifles and 6 or less scoped .44 pistols. The best repairing merchant so far is still the Megaton one with skill up to 53. Not really helpfull, don't you think?

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:07 pm

When I'm referring to repairing kits as an alternative to what i perceive as a flawed execution of the repairing concept

And why is the absence of handy repairing kits (in the post-apocalyptic world) perceived as a flawed execution?

In the real world weapons do not degrade so fast and surely you don't break 2-3 other weapons down in order to fix one!

I would imagine that most weapons in Fallout 3 are 200 years old.

Must be a bit rusty. You scavenge broken guns and combine good parts to make something semi-useful - pretty realistic, imo.

So, having repairing tools + scrap metal (as spare parts alternative) you could easily repair everything everywhere.

How would you craft complex stuff (say, you attempt to repair a plasma pistol) out of scrap metal, in the middle of nowhere? Is that more realistic than just replacing broken parts?

Also, the way this game works in terms of repairing, well, it essentially strangles your combat options. You have to be a medium/close combat character because it's extremely rare to find a new sniper rifle or a scoped .44 so you can fix your damaged one.

IMHO, it is very satisfying that sniper rifles etc. are rare. They should be rare, don't you think?
And yes, when your favorite gun is broken or you are out of ammo, you have to switch to whatever else is available.

I personally think there are too many guns around.

And what about self made weapons? Aren't they made of parts? Why then can't you fix partially your schematics weapons with not all but some of those parts, why do you have to make a new one first just to dismantle it later at a bench to fix your broken one?

Why would you make a good weapon to repair a broken one? That does not make sense. You will use a newer, better one. After the new one is worn out as well, you would use the old one to repair the new one or vise versa, no?

1)But the constant back and forth takes away from the immersiveness of the game

It is entirely up to you. You don't have to pick up all junk.
All games with carrying capacity limit have the same problem. But as I said, the "problem" (if that's in fact a problem) is somewhat alleviated in F3. And ammo and drugs are weightless (unlike in F1/F2).

2)Totally agree on that, but that is the concept of the repairing skill, not the execution

I beg to differ. For example, in Oblivion you can restore your non-magical items to mint condition by using hammers even if your skill is low. You just break more hammers. In F3 you can't do that. If your skill is low, you can't repair your weapons well even if you have tons of spare parts available. The higher your skill the better job you can do. That is the implementation, not the concept.

The best repairing merchant so far is still the Megaton one with skill up to 53. Not really helpfull, don't you think?

And that is just another incentive to develop your skill. You have to settle for a suboptimal repair (for caps...) if you choose to invest your points elsewhere.

swcarter · Post by **swcarter** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:34 pm

Lady Dragonfly wrote:I would imagine that most weapons in Fallout 3 are 200 years old. Must be a bit rusty. You scavenge broken guns and combine good parts to make something semi-useful - pretty realistic, imo.

I think the system makes fine sense for guns, but it's kind of dopey for melee weapons. "Let's see, my baseball bat is broken, so I'll just break off a chunk of this other bat..."

I wouldn't mind seeing repair kits. Then they could repair anything, but not as well as a duplicate copy of the item.

What disappointed me about the repair system is how expensive and unskilled the NPC repairers are. You're pretty much required to dump a bunch of points into repair to keep your equipment useful.

SWC

patroklos · Post by **patroklos** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:13 am

And why is the absence of handy repairing kits (in the post-apocalyptic world) perceived as a flawed execution?

It's not the absence of repairing kits that flaws the concept of repairing in this game, you got me wrong there. Repairing kits is just my alternative idea of using repairs based on other games, especially System Shock 2, where I believe was very successful. What I perceive as flawed execution is
1) the absence of spare parts as units-components in this game for standard weapons & armor
2) the unintelligent usage of the components of schematic self-made weapons in order to repair a schematic weapon. Lady Dragonfly wrote:

Why would you make a good weapon to repair a broken one? That does not make sense. You will use a newer, better one. After the new one is worn out as well, you would use the old one to repair the new one or vise versa, no?

No. Let me give you an example:

Say you happily managed to create your first Rock It Launcher (not my weapon of choice, but trying to avoid spoilers this is the only schematic weapon to refer to). It is made of 4 components, as every other schematic weapon in the game. The weapon condition when you create it is directly proportional to the your repair skill and that is by half. Let's say, after several levels improving your repair skill, you create another one and combine the two of them (or "repairing" one with the other) to make a new one with improved condition. Then you create another new one. Will it be better than the previously referred? No, of course not. Will it be of the same quality? No, sorry again, because 2 combined are better than one.
That's why it is irrational for schematic weapons to improve to "repair" them with whole versions of the same. In their case we have parts. Why not use them indipendently for repairs, so that each component found in the gameworld improves just a little bit the relative weapon?
The problem here is not so much the logic of it (which IMHO is wrong anyway) but the weight burden, as you have to carry at least one extra of your selected weapon if you want to inflict max damage (or have better protection in case of armor). Isn't the whole point of repairing the max damage/protection thing? Because in this game poorly conditioned weapons and armor don't break down or malfunction as in System Shock 2 or Deus Ex. So, since when is the repairing skill relevant to the strength/weight allowance of a game character? Its attribute is INTELLIGENCE, no?

I wouldn't mind seeing repair kits. Then they could repair anything, but not as well as a duplicate copy of the item.

My point exactly, swcarter, though not the duplicate copy thing for schematic weapons.

IMHO, it is very satisfying that sniper rifles etc. are rare. They should be rare, don't you think?
And yes, when your favorite gun is broken or you are out of ammo, you have to switch to whatever else is available.

I personally think there are too many guns around.

Indeed, there are too many guns around, way too many, I couldn't agree more. IMO this is derivative of the flawed repairing system, since you need them to make any sense and use of a high repair skill.
I think too that sniper rifles should be rare. Don't you think that miniguns should be rare too? Because I could find a bunch of them just passing through downtown. 1 out of 4 Super Mutants carries a minigun! Oh, and I never mentioned anything about ammo 'cause never had I any problem with it. Ammo for Sn.Rif. is not rare, the frigging weapon is!

All games with carrying capacity limit have the same problem. But as I said, the "problem" (if that's in fact a problem) is somewhat alleviated in F3. And ammo and drugs are weightless (unlike in F1/F2).

Too true, too true, I can see your point there...

Anyway, thanks for bothering to reply, any other/new views or comments? For me this is the only serious drawback in this game in terms of gameplay, so I'm interested to hear what others have to say about it.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:20 am

swcarter wrote:I think the system makes fine sense for guns, but it's kind of dopey for melee weapons. "Let's see, my baseball bat is broken, so I'll just break off a chunk of this other bat..."

True. But this is in line with other Fallout magic - skill-boosting clothes, Rad-X, Fatman, power armor, supermutants etc.

I wouldn't mind seeing repair kits. Then they could repair anything, but not as well as a duplicate copy of the item.

What would be included in that repair kit? It is already assumed that you have tools to repair your weapons and armor.

What disappointed me about the repair system is how expensive and unskilled the NPC repairers are. You're pretty much required to dump a bunch of points into repair to keep your equipment useful.

On the other hand, if there was at least one highly skilled NPC who could cheaply repair your stuff you would not need repair skill at all. It would've been like First Aid in F2 - useless.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:06 am

@patroclos

Let's say, after several levels improving your repair skill, you create another one and combine the two of them (or "repairing" one with the other) to make a new one with improved condition. Then you create another new one. Will it be better than the previously referred? No, of course not. Will it be of the same quality? No, sorry again, because 2 combined are better than one.
That's why it is irrational for schematic weapons to improve to "repair" them with whole versions of the same. In their case we have parts. Why not use them indipendently for repairs, so that each component found in the gameworld improves just a little bit the relative weapon?

I think the confusion arises from the fact that crafting is tied to Repair skill.
Let me explain how I perceive the situation you described.
Your skill is mediocre so your newly created weapon sucks. Then you create another weapon that also sucks. However, that does not mean ALL components suck equally. You take the best components and combine them to create a better weapon. Makes sense?
You can't expect 100% realism anyway.

The problem here is not so much the logic of it (which IMHO is wrong anyway) but the weight burden, as you have to carry at least one extra of your selected weapon if you want to inflict max damage (or have better protection in case of armor).

That would be powergaming. It is not exactly FPS after all.
You don't have to carry duplicates at all times. Keep them in your storage area. Since the game is combat-heavy, you'd always have something to repair your gear with anyway. And you can always switch from one weapon to another.
I wish the weapon/armor supply was less abundant. The overabundant supply of power armor and assault rifles is ridiculous.

So, since when is the repairing skill relevant to the strength/weight allowance of a game character? Its attribute is INTELLIGENCE, no?

It is not relevant at all. Your repair skill is not affected by your strength. Weight reduction is a side effect of combining several items of the same kind, that's all.

GrimHarvest · Post by **GrimHarvest** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:47 pm

I think the repairing system works quite well on the whole. It's a different way of doing something usual and it IS kind of realistic.

It's caused me problems with unique and rare items. When I've been repairing things and not paid attention I've used the good stuff to repair bad stuff by accident. Reilly's Battle Armour to fix Talon Armour, Sydney's Ultra SMG to repair the 10mm machine pistol etc.

Sic Vic · Post by **Sic Vic** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:16 pm

Opinion on Repair

What would have been a little better in my opinion would be to find specific scrap parts. Like say "Scrap Parts:Hunting Rifle" for example. Also Since we have to have a second piece of said equipment how do we repair the Chinese stealth armor and the stuff from the Anchorage DLC?

shift244 · Post by **shift244** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:25 am

Some items like Ultra SMG and Ranger Armor are unique variants of more common SMG and Combat Armor and repair fine with these commonly found parts. Others are truly unique in which they are exceptional and have no common variant.

So you complain that you cannot use these exceptional items all the time at their best condition; not really because you cannot use them at a poorer grade/condition - because actually, you can. These items tend to be numerically superior (in all aspects) to the more common options found and no one of right mind would choose not use them to given the former implementation. The latter implementation choice, to me, is what makes these items valuable and their use something memorable - because the average thinking player would use them only against heavy odds, husbanding the precious condition (and ammo) and not wantonly use them against mere Raiders only because that extra 5wg of the hunting rifle eats into the precious carry weight total; else, they're just another powerful item in the long lines of powerful items that all RPG characters gradually find and outgrows the earlier, poorer options.

Sarcasm: You found a Zarkonium Power Armor that provides more protection than any armor in the game and can be repaired using any power armor that you can find, which averages to one every 30 mins playtime (or any item similarly abundant).
Vs: You found a Zarkonium Power Armor that provides more protection than any armor in the game but you have no way of repairing this to it's best condition; now there may be a group of 6 very-damaging-creature-thing around that corner... maybe not.

Sorry about the sarcasm, it was semi-intentional, but to no ill meaning, just a way to stress a point. Oh, and I choose the latter option.

Yes, perhaps it would be nice to be able to scrap an item for less weight, but then again, what would you know not to take to reduce weight when scrapping it?? Unless it recognizes which part wears, and then it becomes a whole mini-game in itself... then scrapping an item would give you maybe 5 components of varying conditions and I would just choose to pick all of them since, well you know, you never know when that 50% one comes in handier than all your 49% ones I have left - but that's just me I'm a hoarder. Others might choose to discard anything less than 90%

It may be nice to have kits that has a poorer cost to repair ratio and up to 75% of what your skill would otherwise allow, but then it's may be an unnecessary extra, since you will be carrying more of them and add up the weight anyway; unless you make them weightless of course -- stimpaks for weapons; but I'd think that's almost like visiting that 53% merchant.

Repairing melee and schematic weapons... that's on the spot. But I think it's a very minor complaint on a system, that (I think) works well as whole. Lady Dragonfly proposed a very optimal way to look at it though. But really... no real need to introduce unneeded complexity and testing and debugging hours just so to save 15wg in the backpack, eh? There's no time limit and fast travel is breezy. That's way more important and works around the carry weight more than nicely (for me). I don't see how it breaks immersion either since I usually clear out a reasonable area (high action period), then make a scavenging trip (low action breather period). That certain points in the game force you leave good items behind (but otherwise obtainable, likely later) is even better for the overall feel.

feenicks007 · Post by **feenicks007** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:18 pm

Ok you can't say that this system is "realistic" without laughing. Yes in reality I could take 2 damaged pistols and fix them into 1 working pistol, assuming I have enough working parts and they are compatible. However in this game if I'm using a hunting rifle and it degrades to about 50% then I use my backup and it also degrades to 50%, I wouldn't "realistically" be able to combine the 2 for a better gun. The parts that degraded on 1 rifle are most likely the same ones that degraded on another, so swapping their parts won't solve the problem.

It's also a bit ridiculous that no other "repair" shop in the entire wasteland can do as well as I can when it comes to fixing my gear. I've been wandering the wasteland for a few months and suddenly I can repair gear that I've only just begun to learn about better than someone who has a full workshop and has spent their life repairing things in the wasteland to survive. There should be a couple of higher ranked repairmen/women in the wasteland that I could pay (a few thousand caps) to repair my items to 100% or close to that. If I have a unique item maybe I'd have to bring additional parts and the overall value of the item would be lessened to have it fixed. If I have a unique power armor and it's DR is 50, I could bring it to a special repairman, I'd also need another set of armor, some sensors or conductors and I'd spend maybe 2000 caps. I'd get the armor back at 48 DR. It would keep the armor useful, but still cost something to have it stay that way. It would also make caps more worthwhile. I have like 30000 caps and I have no use for them.

shift244 · Post by **shift244** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:15 am

feenicks007 wrote:I have like 30000 caps and I have no use for them.

Make a whole lot of bottlecap mines and get as many pairs of pants exploded as you can.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:11 am

I wouldn't mind the tweaking of the repair system, i.e. the ability to strip your weapons down to parts and the requirement of specific parts to fix weapons. But, I did like the idea of repair quite a bit. Funds, weapons, and gear are so enormously easy to come by it was nice to feel somewhat limited in phases of the game by item degradation. In fact, I wouldn't have minded degradation being more pronounced or repair being further limited.

patroklos · Post by **patroklos** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:30 pm

Faust said in his post:

I wouldn't mind the tweaking of the repair system, i.e. the ability to strip your weapons down to parts and the requirement of specific parts to fix weapons.

Thank you! My thoughts exactly

Let's not forget everybody that this a game, so we cannot expect absolute realism in its every aspect. However, since it is a game and furthermore a role playing game in 1st person mode and not a hardcore straight FPS, I do expect to be able to choose my role, class, behavior or whatever you want to call it, and play accordingly.

If I have to carry a ton of weapons and armor in order to be able to repair my gear this means investing in strength, meaning a loss in other attributes. Sure, you can fast travel, but this spoiled my immersiveness in the game world."Ok," some would say "your sniper rifle broke down, use your shotgun!" and maybe I could do that, but, damn, I like being a sniper! A game such as this shouldn't force you to change your choosen playing style in order to have results. There should be more clever options to deal with keeping your gear in good repair. This is not power gaming, this is a necessity to stay alive in the wilderness!

What makes a game stand out is not only a good storyline and atmosphere, but also the gameplay, that is, how immersive a game is, how the little things, the practical stuff are dealt with, so as not to frustrate you or distract you from "living the experience".

Or maybe I'm just rumbling

Syrant · Post by **Syrant** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:35 am

Oblivion problems

I got one problem I Install oblivion,then I install patch 1.2.0416 US,then I crack-em and then I start to paly But after 10-15 minutes he dump me from game to windows,when hi dump me he show next text:Oblivion has encovntered a problem and needs to close we are sory for the inconveniewce. if sombody can help I would big gratefull,also I delete old saves and start a new game.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:49 am

Please post in proper forum, as your problem has nothing to do with the thread in question nor Fallout 3 itself. We have separated section for Oblivion, you probably get more and better answers there.

Also, please do not hijack threads. First, use the search function to search your problem, then if you can't find any answers, then post a new thread, don't just post to the first thread you see.

Thank you

Sic Vic · Post by **Sic Vic** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:45 pm

What sneak character wouldn't want to use the Chinese stealth armor that gives a plus 15 to sneak throughout his adventures? I'm just wondering how you can repair it if at all.