CR, EL, party level

[Baraeris]

I'm relatively new to playing D&D by tabletop so forgive me but I need to ask a few newbie questions.

Anyway, I think I may have a misunderstanding on challenge rating, encounter level, and party level. (and I very highly suspect my DM does as well!) The general wisdom is to increase the challenge by adding monsters, not by making them more powerful, correct?

Here's the situation as we played it, and almost got the whole party killed...

Party:
Druid 3
Sor 2/Clr 1
Ftr 3
Clr 3
NPC Thief 3?

Foe:
Wizard 9 (spells randomly selected from PHB as needed).

Now, this wizard almost obliterated the entire party. That's including the animated zombie we had and a small CR2 outsider on our side. Can someone please explain to me how party level is determined?

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Wiz9 was too challenging for our average party level and its composition, especially when the Wiz9's spells were just snatched out of the blue. The first thing it did was cast Invis/self, then Levitate, and finally Obscurring Mist. Oh and a protection from arrows. Imagine these spells together: Can't see him, can't reach him from the ground, and can't hit him with our paltry arrows even if we managed to score a hit. He almost killed us all.

Keep in mind that this game isn't exactly being played in the most orthodox manner anyway.

So if we have a party of five level 3 characters that is average party level 3, correct? Or do you not divide by the number of characters?

Edit:
On the Wizard9, quoth the DM, "his spells were 1st: magic missiles, obscuring, 2nd was all invisbilty, 3rd was sposed to be levitate, displacement, and fireball, 4th was phantasmal killer, and 5th was stone shape"

That stone shape was used as an earthquake spell, not as the one in the PHB p257. I did ask him if he meant the Stone Shape from the PHB and he verified that's the one.

Quote the DM: "although i used it by its basic descirption it said it reformed stone, making a door or something. i made it make craters instead."

Quoth the DM: "Ill tell you what, we will continue this conversation when your a little more knowing of what the circumstances actually were, cuz you guys are really really really.... really in the dark atm"

Y'know I think I just realized why we all almost died?

[Soontir Fel]

I'm no expert on this but the challenge rating of the monsters in encounters should not be greater than the party level, in your case you shouldnt face monsters which have more then 3 CR.

[GawainBS]

I'm no expert on this but the challenge rating of the monsters in encounters should not be greater than the party level, in your case you shouldnt face monsters which have more then 3 CR.

Not true. The general idea is that CR = Party level = an encounter which would cost you 20% of your resources and shouldn't bring any real form of danger.

Anyway:
Party level: average level of the party.
CR: Measure of difficulty of a specific monster/character.
EL: Difficulty of an encounter. CR of an entire encounter. (Several monsters, terrain, handicaps for PCs, etc taken in to account.)

A Wizard 9 is way, way, way too powerful for this party.
First of all: it's a Wizard. It's the single most powerful thing in D&D.
Secondly: the CR of one creature (the wizard) is too high in comparison to the individual levels of the party.

Your DM could make use of this: d20 Encounter Calculator :: Pen, Paper, & Pixel , as long as he keeps in mind to check the individual levels of the party compared to the CR of the components of the encounter.

[Baraeris]

@GawainBS

I actually gave him one of the other calculator links, but still the same program. He still said he didn't really care because the wiz9 was mostly casting "illusions", and he said there's a good chance I would have been able to use my spellcraft to recognize the fireball as it was being cast... I'm not sure how recognizing the fireball would help my clr3. Casting time is 1 action on Fireball so it's not exactly like my cleric could yell "hey y'all get the fork out of the way!" before the spell is cast. What's the point on "recognizing" a spell that is cast and gone in 1 round?

He also said that everyone in the party should have a +2 LA anyway because of the bonuses he gave us before leaving Candlekeep. That still doesn't change the fact that a wiz9 is too powerful. I think he's simply adding the levels of the party together (3+3+3+3+3) and coming up with 15.

These are the bonuses we were all given:

+4 Knowledge skills
+2 Arcana, +2 Spellcraft
+2 vs Illusions and effects
+1 Will, +1 Fort
+3 vs. death effects, energy drain, ability drain

Not exactly heavy hitting stuff there. The party also had a wand of sleep, a few magic missile scrolls on the sorcerer, 1 acid flask, 1 alchemist fire, and some other miscellaneous potions of no particular value in combat.

Even though the DM is one of my best friends I think maybe it's time to bow out of the game... because if Stone Shape is used as an Earthquake then what can I really count on? I hate to be this way. I really do. But I want a game I recognize and not all these surprises.

[GawainBS]

If he's that kind of DM, get out of the game. It saves you a lot of frustration. CHeck out the "horrible roleplaying thread" to get an idea what you might have to endure otherwise...

[Baraeris]

I forgot to add that by this time everyone in the party had a +1 weapon and wearing +1 armor (with the exception of the sorcerer). That still doesn't mean we should have just trashed the wizard. It was the NPC thief 3 who did 90% of the work.

[GawainBS]

Well, a +1 armour isn't going to help you much against that Wizard. What you could try: Ready actions to attack him when he casts a spells. Maybe you can interrupt him. Or better yet: Enlarge your fighters and let them grapple.

[Baraeris]

I actually suggested an enlargement The sorcerer2/clr1 was the only arcane caster and did not have Enlarge.

Let me clear things up: I mean I'm new to 3.0/3.5 DND via tabletop. I'm not new to DND in general. The first time I played was 18-19 years ago (I was 9), with a long hiatus in between. I'm just now getting back into the swing of the game.

We really didn't have many options available to the party considering the Druid and Sorcerer's spell lists, not to mention all 3 of us casters were exhausted in a few rounds while the wizard was invisible, unreachable, and still spellcasting.

Oh well. I think I'm going to have to tell my friend I can't continue to play like this in good conscience... We've been friends for 10 years. I think I can handle the DC50 Diplomacy check needed to get out of it in good graces.

[Baraeris]

But am I being a jerk myself? I feel so conflicted

[GawainBS]

No, you're not being a jerk. You might try to eplain one last time that this kind of encounter isn't fun for anybody. But some DMs think that their virility is a direct function of their number of total party kills...

[Lair-Craft Lord]

I couldn't agree more. When I used to DM, I would amend any module to suit the player's situation - Knock down a room of 3 Trolls to just 2 ifht e players have had a bad time and are running 'low'. Add a couple of 'random events' if they seem to be walking through it and all the rolls are on their side.

For me DMing was about keeping them 'on the edge', unsure if they'd make the next room.

I particularly remember a down and out party who stumbled into a room they weren't prepared for. I had the occupant be 'fast asleep' rather than ready for battle. They only went and tried to attack him! He awoke, thumped one of 'em and killed him outright!

Many DM's don't understand - it's NOT them vs the Players - He is there to guide the play of the game, not conflict with it.

[GawainBS]

Many DM's don't understand - it's NOT them vs the Players - He is there to guide the play of the game, not conflict with it.

True enough. Very few understand it, like you said.