Revan Innocent or Guilty?

[Mandalore72]

I know that I generally don't start threads here, but I might as well give things a little twist for once

Genocide is a very loosely used term nowadays. People use it to describe events in the past with great aplomb. Some historians refer to Julius Caesar's taking of Gaul as Genocide since he killed thousands upon thousands of Gauls to fulfill his goal.

Technically they are right that he committed genocide, but in another aspect they are wrong. Julius Caesar waged a 10 year campaign against Gaul to take the land, not to kill as many people as he could out of hatred for them.

Now, some of you might be confused on the relevance of this little side note, but rest assured that there is a valid reason for this

Alright, here are some arguments professing to Revan's innocence:

He was trying to save the galaxy when during the Mandalorian Wars.

The exile was the one who ordered the Mass Shadow Generator to be used.

He saved the Republic and wasn't fighting to kill the Mandalorians for the sake of killing them.

And here is what I have to say to them:

To the first, it is true that Revan was trying to save the galaxy, but for what purpose? We all know thanks to Kotor that Revan defeated the Mandalorians, disappeared for a while and came back as a powerful Sith Lord. We can safely assume that he was already going down the path to the Dark Side before he left for the Wars.

Some examples of this are the shared dream with Bastila on Dantooine where you see Revan and Malak walking in the ruins on Dantooine with Malak confessing doubts about their path.

That means that we can also safely assume that Revan was going to war not only to save the galaxy, but to find a deeper reservoir or power. And it can also be said that he went to war simply for the sake of crushing the Mandalorians which were a threat at the time to his power should he find what he was seeking.

To the second argument, Revan ordered the Mass Shadow Generator to be built and he ordered the exile to use it. So, the exile didn't order the deaths of thousands, he was following Revan's orders to kill the Mandalorians on Malachor V.

To the third argument, Revan fought to protect his power, not to save the Republic. Once he found what he sought and tasted a small sip of the power of the Dark Side, he wasn't satisfied with the little glimpses of power that was offered by most paths.

To secure his power and crush those who didn't strongly believe in the path he was choosing, Revan ordered the deaths of thousands.

Remember HK-47's words in TSL? He states that those who died on Malachor were those who didn't strongly support Revan's cause or openly opposed him. The Jedi who died there weren't Revan's friends, but those who didn't approve of his methods but had joined the war effort anyway.

So, given all of that, Revan is guilty of genocide by modern and historical definition. He went to war for the sake of killing Mandalorians. He killed those who opposed him and raked up a death toll that most armies are hard pressed to match.

[bigredpanda]

So, given all of that, Revan is guilty of genocide by modern and historical definition. He went to war for the sake of killing Mandalorians. He killed those who opposed him and raked up a death toll that most armies are hard pressed to match.

I think you're on firmer ground arguing that Revan used the war to gain a deeper power. Going to war for "the sake of killing Mandalorians" is different to going to war because they opposed his developing power.

I suppose somebody defending Revan would say that he was tapping into a larger power (which corrupted him), not just for the sake of it but rather in order to unify the galaxy under his command (if you play him DS, as a kind of dictator, if you play LS as a restoration of balance, a la GOTO's idea in K2).

[Nightmare]

To the first, it is true that Revan was trying to save the galaxy, but for what purpose? We all know thanks to Kotor that Revan defeated the Mandalorians, disappeared for a while and came back as a powerful Sith Lord. We can safely assume that he was already going down the path to the Dark Side before he left for the Wars.

...

That means that we can also safely assume that Revan was going to war not only to save the galaxy, but to find a deeper reservoir or power.

Yes and no. As the plot in TSL goes, Revan essentially went to war, no only to defeat the Mandalorians, but to *prepare* the galaxy for what she saw as an even bigger threat. This is likely the True Sith, which she went off to fight alone some time before the second game starts.

I think one of the more important things that Kreia says about Revan is something like "The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but Revan understood more than anyone else." More or less, Kreia infers that Revan never actually fell, but rather made choices to control the larger picture. Revan as a massive manipulator (quite like her teacher, Kreia) is definitely one of the major backstory elements in TSL, and mentioned by a great number of the NPCs (Kreia, HK-47, G0T0).

In fact, its possible to view the Jedi Civil War (the precursor to the first game) as one of Revan's attempts to further strengthen the Republic (or, the galaxy) for a later fight. Its mentioned that Revan didn't go out of her way to destroy any targets of military or economic value, and real devastation only really started when Malak took over.

To the second argument, Revan ordered the Mass Shadow Generator to be built and he ordered the exile to use it. So, the exile didn't order the deaths of thousands, he was following Revan's orders to kill the Mandalorians on Malachor V.

While this won the war, using genocide as the final method had much less to do with killing the Mandalorians than with removing elements from her own army. The Jedi Civil War was less about the Sith conquering the Republic and more about Jedi fighting Dark Jedi. Likewise, Revan knew that in order to get loyal, hardened troops, she needed to break them. The Mandalorian Wars as a whole was a war of conversion to turn Jedi to Revan's cause (this is directly stated in TSL).

Malachor V was a final battle to beat the Mandalorians, and to kill off elements of Revan's army that weren't loyal to her. Its implied that while Revan and The Exile both went to war, they never got along at all (in fact, it was Malak that recruited The Exile, not Revan). Those that didn't die either fell or died; the Exile's Force bonds nearly caused this, which is why he cut himself off from the Force. Something that nobody expected him to do, and that's essentially point behind TSL.

To the third argument, Revan fought to protect his power, not to save the Republic. Once he found what he sought and tasted a small sip of the power of the Dark Side, he wasn't satisfied with the little glimpses of power that was offered by most paths.

If you buy what everyone says in TSL, Revan fought to strengthen the galaxy, not for personal pride or power. Arguably. That's the idea, at least. Keep in mind that Kreia views Revan as a failure in the end, and the Exile's ability to cut himself off from the Force without dying or being consumed (like Nihilus) is why she's so interested in the Exile. What Revan intended and what actually occurred are very different things.

Remember HK-47's words in TSL? He states that those who died on Malachor were those who didn't strongly support Revan's cause or openly opposed him. The Jedi who died there weren't Revan's friends, but those who didn't approve of his methods but had joined the war effort anyway.

Pretty much.

So, given all of that, Revan is guilty of genocide by modern and historical definition. He went to war for the sake of killing Mandalorians. He killed those who opposed him and raked up a death toll that most armies are hard pressed to match.

The point wasn't to kill Mandalorians. Its just what happened. Really, the point wasn't genocide, it was just a tool to manipulate the Jedi and the galaxy. Which, frankly, is arguably worse, since its callously throwing away lives. Its a much more amoral stance than immoral stance, which, depending on one's view, is just as bad.

But, yes. Revan is guilty as all hell.

One interesting note is that a lot of this requires analysis from the second game, despite the first being "Revan's game" and not even appearing in the second. TSL offered a much more nuanced and complex backstory, especially for the Mandalorian war (which the first game dismissed as a mistake out of hand).

[Mandalore72]

Everything you wrote here revolves around one thing: Kotor 2: TSL. TSL completely f***** up Revan's story. In Kotor 1 he had a motive that was understandable and his goal was good.

Than TSL comes along and adds that Revan might have had some deeper purpose to his conquering of the Republic.

Bull****. Just bull****.

Revan fought for not only personal power, but for an empire. He had a universally powerful fleet that he didn't want to completely fall into because he knew that it would eat him alive and destroy him.

So instead he leaves key worlds alive to shorten his "clean up" process once he conquered.

Revan was unmistakably guilty of treason against both the Jedi Order and the Republic, two charges of genocide which includes the Mandalorians and the Jedi Order, mass murder and the assassination of at least one politician.

Morally, his actions were not justifiable. He could have done many other things other than what he did.

By what you are shown in Kotor 1, Revan was already falling to the dark side before he left for the Mandalorian Wars. How could one be looking to protect something when they were already corrupted and seeking ultimate power? You can't.

[bigredpanda]

Everything you wrote here revolves around one thing: Kotor 2: TSL. TSL completely f***** up Revan's story. In Kotor 1 he had a motive that was understandable and his goal was good.

You can't just ignore the parts of the story that you don't like!

I've always seen TSL as suggesting that there are more important things in the galaxy than DS/LS distinction, and its suggested that Revan had an idea about this (hence going off to the outer regions). So I've never seen it as Revan having deeper motives etc., but more that their actions weren't as black and white as the Jedi Order or the Republic saw them.

Interesting topic, btw.

[Nightmare]

I've always seen TSL as suggesting that there are more important things in the galaxy than DS/LS distinction, and its suggested that Revan had an idea about this (hence going off to the outer regions). So I've never seen it as Revan having deeper motives etc., but more that their actions weren't as black and white as the Jedi Order or the Republic saw them.

Kreia says as much...in the end, Revan was just Revan, and acted as she saw fit. Definitely fell to the dark side, but that was more a means to an end rather than the end itself.

@Mandalore72,

Yup, I do base much of it off TSL, since that's where a lot of the plot and characters are explored much more deeply. KotOR 1 was very much "Star Wars": good and evil, right and wrong, and rather simple character motivations. Essentially true to a lot of what George Lucas wants his Star Wars to be.

I guess it comes down to your opinion of TSL. Quite frankly, its a more mature and deep game, and explores the various shades of gray as opposed to the rather black/white contrast that exists in most SW games. Part of it is undoubtedly the writer (Chris Avellone) complaining about how limiting a strict good vs. evil story is. Avellone also wrote Planescape Torment, and TSL is similar in a lot of respects (characters, plot progression, contradictions, etc.).

I'm obviously of the opinion that TSL was the vastly superior game, so we'll probably disagree on a very fundamental level about Revan.

[Mandalore72]

There you couldn't be more wrong. TSL rocks. I just don't like the way it depicts Revan as having a deeper motive when in the first gamer which sets a base for everything, Revan's motive was simply for power. Not just is that understandable, but it fits in with the game and the events preceding it. TSL ruins this. By saying that Revan had a deeper purpose and wasn't corrupted by the dark side you are saying that his act of genocide against the Jedi was justifiable as was his slaughtering the Mandalorians and attacking the Republic. If he wanted to strengthen the Republic he would have integrated himself into the political workings of it and ceased power and true support that way. Then he could have passed laws and other things to strengthen the Republic the way he wants it. But he didn't and you can't say that he wanted to save the Republic if he was attacking it. That doesn't make sense.

[Nightmare]

Apologies for mistakenly assuming that you're not a fan of TSL. Admittedly, the Revan story in TSL is very much a retcon, its just one that I personally happen to like.

Having a deeper purpose doesn't make what she did justifiable at all. Not only did she fail, but I personally find the fact that it was deliberately done to accomplish something rather then just because she was evil to be much more morally reprehensible. Her plan to attack the Republic was geared towards making sure that whatever came out after the battle would be the strongest possible structure for the galaxy to be able to survive. She attacked the Mandalorians since their conquest was very destructive to the overall order and stability, and would've been very detrimental in the long run.

Having said that, yeah, it does require a bit of a leap in logic. It makes a good amount of sense to me though, and it makes much of TSL's plot and characters (esp. Kreia and G0-T0) much more poignant since the events that Revan put into motion are always in the backdrop.

On a side and mostly unrelated note, its sort of cool how TSL is almost more of a prequel than a sequel. It deals mostly with the Mandalorian War, and why the Jedi Civil War came about, rather than what happened after the first game.

[gonin]

Sith Clown

Why does he have to have some deep motive? I'm pretty sure Revan was a jerk on an ego trip, and then made up some excuses. "Oh yeh, i'm a sith lord cuz....er...EVIL SUPER POWER NONE OF YOU WILL EVER SEE OR HEAR OF EVER"

Indeed, he used the logic of, be afraid of whats under the bed, but dont check whats under the bed, because what your afraid of is under the bed.

Thus Revan is guilty of being a hillarious improv actor who found out a way of turning himself into a hero, after pulling a jerk move.

But he is innocent on the front of killing Madolorians, they asked for it.

Cheers,
G-Myster

[Tauntaunchopsn'jawajuice]

He was innocent, he was "reprogrammed" by the sith emperor (revan book) to be evil, it happened when revan and malak tried to kill the sith emperor, and he was too strong, so he took and warped their brains with the force to do his bidding....so there you go.

[galraen]

I'm not sure if she was guilty or innocent, but definitely agree with this

You can't just ignore the parts of the story that you don't like!

Whether she was guilty or not one thing is for sure the Jedi Council were as guilty as sin; very reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain, but even he realised that action was necessary in the end, unlike the jerks on the council.