Vatican defends Brazil excommunication

[dragon wench]

[url="http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/5375029/vatican-defends-brazil-excommunication/"]Vatican defends Brazil excommunication[/url]

A senior Vatican cleric has defended the excommunication of the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion in Brazil after being raped.

Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, head of the Catholic church's Congregation for Bishops, told the daily La Stampa on Saturday that the twins the girl had been carrying had a right to live.

"It is a sad case but the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons, who had the right to live and could not be eliminated," he said.

Re, who also heads the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, added: "Life must always be protected, the attack on the Brazilian church is unjustified."

The row was triggered by the termination on Wednesday of twin foetuses carried by a nine-year-old allegedly raped by her stepfather in the Brazilian state of Pernambuco.

The regional archbishop, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, pronounced excommunication for the mother for authorising the operation and doctors who carried it out for fear that the slim girl would not survive carrying the foetuses to term.

"God's law is above any human law. So when a human law ... is contrary to God's law, this human law has no value," Cardoso had said.

He also said the accused stepfather would not be expelled from the church. Although the man allegedly committed "a heinous crime ... the abortion - the elimination of an innocent life - was more serious".

Battista Re agreed, saying: "Excommunication for those who carried out the abortion is just" as a pregnancy termination always meant ending an innocent life.

The case has sparked fierce debate in Brazil, where abortion is illegal except in cases of rape or if the woman's health is in danger.

On Friday, President Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva hit out at Sobrinho's decision, saying: "As a Christian and a Catholic, I deeply regret that a bishop of the Catholic church has such a conservative attitude."

"The doctors did what had to be done: save the life of a girl of nine years old," he said, adding that "in this case, the medical profession was more right than the church."

One of the doctors involved in the abortion, Rivaldo Albuquerque, told Globo television that he would keep going to mass, regardless of the archbishop's order.

"The people want a church full of forgiveness, love and mercy," he said.

Health Minister Jose Gomes Temporao also slammed the archbishop.

"Two things strike me: the assault on the girl and the position of this bishop, which is truly lamentable," he said.

The girl, who was not identified because she is a minor, was last week found to be four months' pregnant after being taken to hospital suffering stomach pains.

Officials said she told them she had suffered sexual abuse by her stepfather since the age of six.

Police said the 23-year-old stepfather also allegedly sexually abused the girl's physically handicapped 14-year-old sister.

He was arrested a week ago and is being kept in protective custody. If convicted, he faces up to 15 years in prison.

The website of the news group Globo reported that another girl, aged 11, had been found to be seven months pregnant following alleged sexual abuse at the hands of her adoptive father.

The girl has said she does not intend to seek an abortion, according to reports.

.... Thoughts?
Personally I'm appalled... A nine-year-old girl was raped and the Vatican responds with excommunication... Meanwhile, the rapist's actions are viewed as less serious...


Note, I know this is a highly contentious topic on several fronts, and it certainly evokes a strong emotional reaction within me..
But, let's try to keep this respectful and civil please

[Xandax]

Can't say I'm surprised.
I've never liked religion based on the deeds which gets carried out in its name combined with the whole unquestioned "faith" - aka "do as we say or else....."

Now I'm sure people would act accordingly without religion as well - but basically - this problem arises when somebody gets to be the leader of something which must not be questioned at all.
And for that religion or cults/sects are a prime example of stupidity and insensitivity due to unquestioned organizations.

The whole system is lacking all the compassion, which otherwise is preached as the foundation of such belief systems.

[jklinders]

Urge to kill rising....THIS is why I cannot stand most organized religions. The abortion debate, it seems to me has always revolved around the right of women. There is to me a clear case of sexism in the way this bishop handled it. I'll bet he blames this poor innocent girl for the abuse happening in the first place. The stepfather is every bit as responsible for the abortion as anyone. No rape, no abortion.

This girl might have turned to her faith for comfort. Fat chance of that now. I think I'd better stop now, I think i am getting close to a warning here as it is.

[fable]

Urge to kill rising....THIS is why I cannot stand organized religion.

Now, I do not belong to any organized religion. You might say that my religious beliefs are pretty outre. But how do you get that the Roman Catholic Church equals all organized religion?

[jklinders]

They don't, but take the examples of organized religion that I am familiar with and it all amounts to the same thing. There is more concern over micromanaging how you live your life than being a good person. Most organized religion gained the power it has by virtue of controlling it's parishioners. Catholicism is no worse about this than the others. But it has been doing it longer than most and has tremendous influence.

I know full well that you are aware of this Fable, so I can only guess you are trying to get me to justify my comment. I look at any organized religion as a way to control the masses. While my own beliefs might be bearing a resemblance to certain religions I cast my own interpretations over the meaning of any relevant ancient writings.

[fable]

They don't, but take the examples of organized religion that I am familiar with and it all amounts to the same thing. There is more concern over micromanaging how you live your life than being a good person. Most organized religion gained the power it has by virtue of controlling it's parishioners. Catholicism is no worse about this than the others. But it has been doing it longer than most and has tremendous influence.

By their nature, ethical systems impose a series of values that its members are expected to adhere to. Is this what you mean by "controlling its parishioners"? Because it stands to reason that if this is not a sacred ethos, but a secular one, the result of refusal to act in harmony (say, by theft, or arson, or murder) would be prison. So it would seem that you object to sacred ethical systems, but not to secular ones. Am I correct in that?

I know full well that you are aware of this Fable, so I can only guess you are trying to get me to justify my comment.

Sure.

I look at any organized religion as a way to control the masses. While my own beliefs might be bearing a resemblance to certain religions I cast my own interpretations over the meaning of any relevant ancient writings.

This is precisely what the RCC feared with the upswing in organized dissent (there had been disorganized dissent for some time). To the extent that this has resulted in hundreds of "megachurches" built around a single individual who knows everything and only wants your willpower in exchange for salvation, it's just possible those old scabs like Ignatius of Loyola were onto something.

[jklinders]

Nothing wrong with the installing of a set of ethics for parishioners, or a sacred code of ethics for that matter. It is the cherry picking of those ethics that gets on my nerves. In the catholic church all of the power that matters is in hands of men. It is men that decide it is a sin for women to divorce their abusive husbands, that women cannot be priests, and yes females, cannot get abortions when raped by monsters.

As an aside I find it amusing that those who preach that the Bible is the ultimate source of all knowledge find it so easy to ignore all of the really inconvenient rules that no one in modern society could reasonably follow. Most of them can be found in Leviticus. If Leviticus is wrong, then other parts can be too.

[sparky_kat]

this story had me steaming the first time i read it.... the law SPECIFICALY states that abortion is allowed due to RAPE and the health of the mother, and she by far had both going in favor for her fragile little body.

I think what pisses me off the most though is how the step-father seems like he is only getting a slap on the wrist for brutalizing a poor innocent child who can barely defend herself... some may say 15 years is a long time...... not even close to a fitting punishment... he needs his bits and vittles torn off and shoved somewhere dark on his body.

i should probably stop before i get in trouble..... or banned

[jklinders]

this story had me steaming the first time i read it.... the law SPECIFICALY states that abortion is allowed due to RAPE and the health of the mother, and she by far had both going in favor for her fragile little body.

I think what pisses me off the most though is how the step-father seems like he is only getting a slap on the wrist for brutalizing a poor innocent child who can barely defend herself... some may say 15 years is a long time...... not even close to a fitting punishment... he needs his bits and vittles torn off and shoved somewhere dark on his body.

i should probably stop before i get in trouble..... or banned

I feel the same way, wanted to write with far more violence than you did, child molesters never seem to get the suffering they deserve. Few things come as close to inspiring true hate from me as child abuse.

You said it, I second it.

[fable]

Nothing wrong with the installing of a set of ethics for parishioners, or a sacred code of ethics for that matter. It is the cherry picking of those ethics that gets on my nerves. In the catholic church all of the power that matters is in hands of men. It is men that decide it is a sin for women to divorce their abusive husbands, that women cannot be priests, and yes females, cannot get abortions when raped by monsters.

But why declare the RCC synonymous with all organized religion? Have you checked out Hinduism? Conservative or Reformed Judaism? Some of the more liberal forms of Protestantism? The B'hais? You appear to be scapegoating all religion by flaying the RCC, and that's not fair. (It's also unfair to regard the RCC, from pope to every parishioner, as a single body, whatever that bunch of old men in the Vatican may insist, but I'll leave that defense to somebody who follows the religion. We have several very good people here who do.)

As an aside I find it amusing that those who preach that the Bible is the ultimate source of all knowledge find it so easy to ignore all of the really inconvenient rules that no one in modern society could reasonably follow. Most of them can be found in Leviticus. If Leviticus is wrong, then other parts can be too.

This is an entirely different issue that has nothing to do with organized religion, and everything to do with the need among humans to find the security of absolute truth in something in their lives--whether that be a holy book, or science, or an ideological leader. Kicking Leviticus is old hat; it's like mother-in-law jokes. It's very easy to do. And I've never heard anybody do it better than Jeremy Hardy, in any case, as witnesseth:

“...There are a couple of things I need guidance on. Firstly, If I wanted to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7, how much could I expect to make from such a deal? Also, my colleague Pete insists on working on the sabbath. Exodus clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or is it OK to get some outside help? Lastly, does the whole city really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side. And when I burn my mother for wearing garments made from two different threads, do I torch her whole or just a bit?”

....But discussing the issues surrounding ethical systems requires less focus on things like Leviticus, and more of an examination into what a religion requires of its people, what it offers, and how this all interacts. It may be less immediate fun, but it has the advantage of finding all sorts of interesting areas for great discussion.

[jklinders]

I never really said the RCC was synonymous with organized religion. As for the way the other sects you mentioned, I am not familiar with them. We both kind of gravitated on on the RCC I think because of the content of the article.

Religion has been an instrument of love in some cases. But all too often it is an instrument of hate and control.

now don't get me wrong fable, I do not confuse the institutions that I do not approve of with those who practice them. Some of my very dearest friends are Catholic. Please kindly read that article again, is organized religion being an instrument of good or evil in this case? the name of it is irrelevant. A highly placed member of an organized religion chose dogma over right. The face of that religion is irrelevant and would have inspired as much bile if it was a different one.

I would rather not have someone like him giving lessons to anyone about how to be a good person. He clearly lacks any knowledge of what good is.

[Dottie]

I don't think the problem with the RCC is that they have a moral code, or that they exclude people who break it. The problem is that it is the wrong moral code. If someone were to be excluded from "The society to prevent murder" for murdering I would find it completely acceptable, and likewise if you could join "The society for nazism and pedophilia" even if you weren't practising I would still believe that organization to be horribly unethical.

I wish everyone would stop focusing on whether a religion or other organisation could be seen as hypocrites or not, and instead judge them on merit of the ethics that they preach.

In other words: It's unfair to criticize the RCC for being a religion, or for the crimes it has committed in the past, but it is also completely spineless to forgive them for their present hate filled nonsense on account of being a religion.

[Demortis]

.... Thoughts?
Personally I'm appalled... A nine-year-old girl was raped and the Vatican responds with excommunication... Meanwhile, the rapist's actions are viewed as less serious...


Note, I know this is a highly contentious topic on several fronts, and it certainly evokes a strong emotional reaction within me..
But, let's try to keep this respectful and civil please

Im not to sure, but I seem to recall some stories in the bible that included rape. I could be wrong and I hope I am on that one.

Well, lets just say my view on rape tends to end the rapist in ICU of the local hospitals...

[Box Lump]

This is beyond wrong.

I wonder if the Cardinal understands what having a child would do to someone that age, and the chances of that baby surviving the birth. I'm no doctor, but I imagine that both children could have died if the mother had been forced to have the child.

Furthermore, the girl didn't decide to get pregnant, she was raped. Being forced away from her church because of something she couldn't possibly have controlled could discourage her from having anything to do with religious people, or being religious herself. She should have been supported by fellow Catholics of all ranks, and the Cardinal frankly should have used his head instead of treating this girl in the same way as a rebellious 18 year old who willingly had unprotected sex.

I guess I'm not a very orthodox Christian. I don't think God would condemn every abortion that was ever performed. I think He would judge based on every factor, including the mother and the circumstances of her pregnancy. God is not some kind of tyrannical overlord who cares more about the rules than the people who are supposed to follow them. The girl was in obvious danger from her pregnancy and I strongly believe that God understands the family's actions. To throw them out of Church is downright cruel.

[Demortis]

Nothing wrong with the installing of a set of ethics for parishioners, or a sacred code of ethics for that matter. It is the cherry picking of those ethics that gets on my nerves. In the catholic church all of the power that matters is in hands of men. It is men that decide it is a sin for women to divorce their abusive husbands, that women cannot be priests, and yes females, cannot get abortions when raped by monsters.

<snip>

Because way back when, men were the ruling class. Yes, in the years that have followed that has changed, but "God's law" bs, is kinda stopping the church from seeing that... Besides, if the RCC let women become priestess's(sp?), then the other priests couldnt play with lil boys:laugh: Sorry, that one was kinda there, I dont mean that at all!

I think what pisses me off the most though is how the step-father seems like he is only getting a slap on the wrist for brutalizing a poor innocent child who can barely defend herself... some may say 15 years is a long time...... not even close to a fitting punishment... he needs his bits and vittles torn off and shoved somewhere dark on his body.

In the USA, any person convicted of child molestation has an average life span of about 6 months in prison. Some make it out, but most dont. Alot of convicts dont like to think of their lil kids gettin rapped. Besides, that step-dad needs to be put in a cell with somebody big and named Bubba. Who has bad teeth and speaks with a hick accent sayin, "You got a purty mouth boy!"

Your absolutely right on that. But theres not much we can really do, since they follow a book that no one really knows if it was/is exact. We as people can understand this, but the Card. is a link to "God". Watch, it actually turns out that he has some sort of dark secret like actually doing hookers and blow :laugh:

[fable]

Im not to sure, but I seem to recall some stories in the bible that included rape. I could be wrong and I hope I am on that one.

Several parts of the OT that nobody likes to quote deal with a triumphalist Habiru tribe, under the guidance of Yahweh, destroying city after city: killing all men and children, but being allowed to take the women as slaves for their...personal use. The idea being that among those extremely patriarchal peoples, slaughtering all the men and children meant an end to the "race" that lived there, before. The women simply had no existence, except to serve their lords. As I recall, it was because he refused to follow the script, having fallen for a woman (cue sounds of patriarchal disgust), that Saul was smitten by his god with madness.

Don't look at me. He's not in my pantheon.

As regards the RCC, this kind of bad publicity is just what it needs at the moment. Let's remember that Rapzinger was JP2's go-to guy, the man who tore to pieces the compromising, liberalizing Church of several generations ago. The current RCC is stacked in medium-to-high level hierarchical positions with old, extremely conservative followers of this ideology. When the pedophile scandals began rocking the Church a decade or more ago, their concern was that the priests in question receive good counseling.

I wonder if the Cardinal understands what having a child would do to someone that age, and the chances of that baby surviving the birth. I'm no doctor, but I imagine that both children could have died if the mother had been forced to have the child.

They would be sympathetic, but you are not perceiving the way the RCC mind works. Rape is a crime for the secular courts, to their way of thinking--a 13th century ACE way. But aborting a fetus conceived by rape, despite being likely to kill the mother, is a spiritual crime of a high order. That falls under their jurisdiction, by their way of thinking.

They're really not thinking the same way we are, you see. And given what they believe to be the invincibility of their organization, they really don't care what you or I say. Unless, of course, it becomes a matter of gays marrying, in which case, like the Mormons, they'll pour a ton of money into defeating that kind of legislation.

[galraen]

What has happened to the girl is abominable.As the same thing apparently happened to her sister, unless there is some sort of intercession by the authorities I fear she isn't going to get the sort of emotional and caring family support she so desperately needs. If hse had the necessary support then the excommunication may have been, I can't say blessing in disguise, completely the wrong term, but I hope you understand what I mean.

At least she now knows how her church perceives her, as a breeding machine with no rights and as a chattel for men to use as they see fit. What, think I'm being outrageous? How do you think she will perceive he treatment and abandonment by a mysoginistic organisation like the RCC. I may have been distorting things initially, but make no mistake about it, the RCC is mysoginistic. If there was an alternative source of solace for the girl, then maybe being forced to turn to it by an uncaring patriarch would have turned out for the best. Sadly I get the impression that she won't find anything other than state aid. The best we can hope for is that she wil be fostered/adopted by a truly caring family, and will come out of her horrific experience with her sanity intact.

As for the ArchBisho, if anyone deserves to roast in Hell, it's him. How can such an [expletive deleted] rise to such power? Simple really when the orgaisation that put him in that position do so because of his loyalty to his appointers and their hideous doctrine rather than because he's the best person for the job. Of course the RCC don't care about best person, first requisite being that it's a man.

Personally, considerations for the victim aside (difficult as that was), this was just the sort of ruinous PR that I was hoping for when Joe Ratzinger got the job. The RCC had an opportunity to take itself forward, and make it more appealing to the masses, I really feared they would do that. Instead they took ten paces back and appointed "God's Rotweiler" instead.

[fable]

From the Times Online:

The Vatican has backtracked over the excommunication of doctors in Brazil who performed an abortion on a nine-year-old daughter who became pregnant with twins after being raped by her 23 year old stepfather. Archbishop Rino Fisichella, President of the Pontifical Academy for Life, said the excommunication not only of the medical team but also of the girl's mother had been a mistake. "Before thinking about an excommunication it was necessary and urgent to save an innocent life", he said. The excommunication had been decided on and publicised "too hastily".

Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Archishop Fisichella noted that the excommunications had rebounded on the Church. "Unfortunately the credibility of our teaching was dented. It appeared in the eyes of many to be insensitive, incomprehensible and lacking in mercy." The girl "should have been above all defended, embraced, treated with sweetness to make her feel that we were all on her side, all of us, without distinction." Last week the National Conference of Brazilian Bishops admitted that the excommunications of the mother and doctors of the girl had been wrong. It said the girl's mother had acted "under pressure from the doctors", who told her the girl's life was at stake and she would die if she gave birth because she was physically immature.

Dimas Lara Barbosa, the secretary-general of the Brazilian bishops said "We must take the circumstances into consideration". He said that equally there was "no clear case" for excommunicating the doctors, since only doctors who "systematically" conducted abortions should be excommunicated. Earlier Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, head of the Vatican Congregation for Bishops, had backed the excommunications, saying the Brazilian bishops were right to take the view that the abortion was a sin. He said attacks on them were "unjustified."

The girl was found to be four months' pregnant after being taken to a hospital suffering stomach pains. Her stepfather, who is alleged to have sexually abused her since she was six, has been arrested. However Monsignor Fisichella implied that the case was exceptional, saying it did not affect the Church's ban on abortion as a whole, which was "always bad". He added: "How should one act in these cases? An arduous decision for the doctor, and for moral law itself".

There's just a bit more to it. You can read it all here. My impressions? The Vatican was getting such a mudbath from attackers on this one that they decided to look warm and cuddly. Especially since Ratzinger has done such a swell job alienating Jews, the Orthodox, Protestants, etc.

[LeoStarDragon1]

The Ten Commandments!

Hello, Fable!

I wanted to ask somebody about this when it was first posted. "Pregnancy Abortion" is considered to be murder by them as they believe life begins at conception, although I don't see anybody celebrating "conception days" just birthdays, and seeing as how "Though Shall Not Commit Murder", formerly known by the confusing "Thou Shall Not Kill", is listed among the Ten Commandments, while "Thou Shall Not Rape" doesn't even get a mention, while a novel titled "The 11th Commandment" suggests that "Go forth and be fruitful." is sort of one, ergo no pregancy abortions or birth control, that of course they'd perceive the pregnancy abortion to me much worse than what caused the pregnancy to begin with. Whew! I got it out. So wouldn't that be what caused the original judgment for excommunication?

[fable]

Hello, Fable!

I wanted to ask somebody about this when it was first posted. "Pregnancy Abortion" is considered to be murder by them as they believe life begins at conception, although I don't see anybody celebrating "conception days" just birthdays,

Actually, in many Catholic countries, they celebrated "name days" when infants were baptized. I suspect that was because although they believed the soul was created at the moment sperm and egg came together, it wasn't truly saved until it was baptized. So that all children that didn't get baptized ended up in hell, which was really Christian of them.

...So wouldn't that be what caused the original judgment for excommunication?

As I think I wrote above (I'm too tired to check), the RCC believes that they're in charge of the spiritual side of things. Abortion counts as killing a soul, whereas rape is something for the secular authorities, while sodomy is--well, it's something that's practiced and condemned by the RCC hierarchy. I really can't figure it all out. I once was offered the god position of this planet if I could, but I laughed, said, "You can't pin that one on me, copper!" and moved a universe away before they could rope me into the job. I may be crazy, but I'm not an idiot.